John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

Hammster

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This is ridiculous because it neuters the passage - especially verse 4-6. It also reads very poorly. None of the translations read like this. This technique can be applied nilly-willy to make any portion of the word of God of no effect.

Plus if the instances of all types refer to the same subject, that subject still cannot be whittled down to the elect because verse 2 constrains all types to include "all in authority" - like Nero and Herod. Maybe you can get rid of that argument by changing "all in authority" to "all types in authority".

Here's an idea, create a Milquetoast version of the NT that neuters or removes the sections you don't like - oh, wait the Danish Bible Society already did that.
What exactly did I neuter? Did I misuse pas? (The answer is no, I did not.)
 
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John Mullally

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Good Day, Hamster

Tried to get John to work though some of the grammar and exegete the text as text.... no luck.

Even supplied the link to Premier NT Greek scholar Thomas R. Schreiner for His consideration on some of the proof texting going on here not sure he even considered it seriously.

“Problematic Texts” for Definite Atonement in the Pastoral and General Epistles by Thomas R. Schreiner

In Him,

Bill
It is easy enough to find scholars that agree with me on 1 Timothy 2. If some translators had agreed with this "all types" assertion, we would see it.

1 Timothy 2 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete)
 
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John Mullally

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What exactly did I neuter? Did I misuse pas? (The answer is no, I did not.)
A term similar to all types of people has been clearly used a few times in the NT. There is no argument on those passages that "all" was meant instead of "all types".

God wanting all people to be saved and Christ being made a ransom for all men sounds like good news (what Gospel means), but it is a threat to some's way of thinking - so they fight it tooth and nail - not surprising. To preserve their beliefs the references to all, all men, all people, everyone in the problem verses (i.e. 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, and 1 Peter 3:9) in respected translations have to be neutered to mean "all types" as we see in Post 177. And then they still have a problem with 1 Peter 2:1 that says that God paid for False Prophets on their way to destruction.

I am not going on and on about this subject - its been repeated many times on these forums.
 
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zoidar

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What’s the difference believing the truth and saving faith? They seem like the same thing to me.

I don't want to cause worry to my Christian friends, but I still have to answer this from my heart. I believe a person can believe that Jesus died on cross, was punished for our sins and still not have received the Holy Spirit and been saved.

To be saved we need not just to know or believe the fact that Jesus died for our sins. We need to know Jesus personally, not just know about him and about the fact of the crucifixion. When we receive God's Spirit we receive Him, so we get to know Jesus personally. Then we are united through His Spirit in us with the crucified Messiah on the cross. Then it's like we have been crucified on that cross, since He is in us and we are in Him. This is just not only a matter of believing, but becoming part of Him through genuine repentance and faith through the Holy Spirit. This living faith is given us when we repent, not just by believing a fact.

I also want to say, I don't judge other Christians if they have been saved or not. That is not my call. If they are believers I assume they have received God's Spirit, unless it's totally obvious they haven't.
 
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Hammster

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The use of the concept all types has been used a few times in the NT and it was always obvious when used. There is no argument on those passages that "all" was meant instead of "all types".

God wanting all people to be saved and Christ being made a ransom for all men is a threat to some's way of thinking - so they fight it tooth and nail - not surprising. To preserve their beliefs the references to all, all men, all people, everyone in 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Timothy 2:6, 1 John 2:2, and 1 Peter 3:9 from respected translations have to be neutered to mean "all types" as we see in Post 177. And then they still have a problem with 1 Peter 2:1 that says that God paid for False Prophets on their way to destruction.

I am not going on and on about this subject - its been repeated many times on these forums.
Could it be that some folks don’t see it as a threat, but rather are convinced that the scriptures teach that God, out of His mercy, chooses to save some that don’t deserve it?
 
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childeye 2

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This is John Owen’s concise puzzle concerning the recipient of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Arguably the strongest argument of the doctrine of limited/definite atonement besides Scriptures.

Owen contended,
The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case, it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!

Indeed, Jesus dying for His own is one of the hardest biblical realities to swallow in the Scriptures. Yet, it’s the truth.


In Him,

Bill
Any reasoning based on something untrue, ends in a contradiction. I find it a contradiction that it was God's wrath being displayed on the cross.
 
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Hammster

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I don't want to cause worry to my Christian friends, but I still have to answer this from my heart. I believe a person can believe that Jesus died on cross, was punished for our sins and still not have received the Holy Spirit and been saved.

To be saved we need not just to know or believe the fact that Jesus died for our sins. We need to know Jesus personally, not just know about him and about the fact of the crucifixion. When we receive God's Spirit we receive Him, so we get to know Jesus personally. Then we are united through His Spirit in us with the crucified Messiah on the cross. Then it's like we have been crucified on that cross, since He is in us and we are in Him. This is just not only a matter of believing, but becoming part of Him through genuine repentance and faith through the Holy Spirit. This living faith is given us when we repent, not just by believing a fact.

I also want to say, I don't judge other Christians if they have been saved or not. That is not my call. If they are believers I assume they have received God's Spirit, unless it's totally obvious they haven't.
I appreciate this response. But I’m still a bit confused on your viewpoint. You say that a dead man can’t have saving faith (and I agree). So that means that only one who is alive can have saving faith. And it seems to me that you just described someone who is alive in Christ. So the conundrum is that you seem to believe that a dead man needs saving faith to be made alive, yet a dead man cannot have saving faith because he’s dead. What am I missing?
 
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Hammster

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Any reasoning based on something untrue, ends in a contradiction. I find it a contradiction that it was God's wrath being displayed on the cross.
How is that a contradiction?
 
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zoidar

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I appreciate this response. But I’m still a bit confused on your viewpoint. You say that a dead man can’t have saving faith (and I agree). So that means that only one who is alive can have saving faith. And it seems to me that you just described someone who is alive in Christ. So the conundrum is that you seem to believe that a dead man needs saving faith to be made alive, yet a dead man cannot have saving faith because he’s dead. What am I missing?

A dead man with dead faith gets living faith by repenting. So a dead man with dead faith has to repent to get the Holy Spirit and living faith, as I see it.

As soon as a dead man with dead faith gets the Holy Spirit by repenting he is instantly made alive and has been given saving faith.

You'll probably ask how a man that is dead can repent. And it's like I described in past posts, by conviction of the Holy Spirit. So a dead man can be convicted by the Holy Spirit without having yet received the Holy Spirit.
 
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Hammster

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A dead man with dead faith gets living faith by repenting. So a dead man with dead faith has to repent to get the Holy Spirit and living faith, as I see it.

As soon as a dead man with dead faith gets the Holy Spirit by repenting he is instantly made alive and has been given saving faith.

You'll probably ask how a man that is dead can repent. And it's like I described in past posts, by conviction of the Holy Spirit. So a dead man can be convicted by the Holy Spirit without having yet received the Holy Spirit.
Doesn’t repenting require faith? In other words, don’t you need to believe something before you’d even want to repent?
 
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childeye 2

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How is that a contradiction?
It presents that God wants to beat, mock, and scorn, and watch mankind die a slow and torturous death. Which is contrary to being, full of grace, mercy, trustworthy and understanding. To me the Gospel is preaching that it was the wickedness of the world that crucified God's son which was part of God's plan to display the depth of His Love, destroy the works of the devil, and bring forth a New and everlasting Covenant and the kingdom and children of God.
 
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John Mullally

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Doesn’t repenting require faith? In other words, don’t you need to believe something before you’d even want to repent?
That is why the preaching of the Gospel is so vital. Without the preaching of the word of God, there is no hearing and no faith is generated.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Jesus said in John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all peoples to Myself.” Why would He do that if he doesn't want all people to be saved? Or maybe "all people" really means "all types of people" in this problem verse as well. All those Bible translators just can't seem to get it right.
 
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Hammster

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It presents that God wants to beat, mock, and scorn, and watch mankind die a slow and torturous death. Which is contrary to being, full of grace, mercy, trustworthy and understanding. To me the Gospel is preaching that it was the wickedness of the world that crucified God's son which was part of God's plan to display the depth of His Love, destroy the works of the devil, and bring forth a New and everlasting Covenant and the kingdom and children of God.
It was God’s plan to crucify His Son. He was pleased to crush Him. Christ was made sin for us. God hate sin. Thus, His wrath fell on His Son on our behalf.
 
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Hammster

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That is why the preaching of the Gospel is so vital. Without the preaching of the word of God, there is no hearing and no faith is generated.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Jesus said in John 12:32 "And if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all peoples to Myself.” Why would He do that if he doesn't want all people to be saved? Or maybe "all people" really means "all types of people" in this problem verse as well. All those Bible translators just can't seem to get it right.
The problem I see with your arguments in general is that you ignore context so often. In this case, you act as if this verse just stands by itself. You ignore the previous verses which, if you looked at the context starting in v 20, would show you that “all men” meant not just the Jews.
 
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zoidar

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Doesn’t repenting require faith? In other words, don’t you need to believe something before you’d even want to repent?

Sure, you need to believe something. But I disagree that when the Bible says "being made alive" is refering to that you believe a fact about the gospel. Rather I say it's refering to you have received Christ, by repentance.

For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive (by repentance) the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life (have been made alive) through the One, Jesus Christ.
— Romans 5:17


You wrote in response to my post #184:
And it seems to me that you just described someone who is alive in Christ.

I wasn't sure what you were refering to. Was it this:

... I believe a person can believe that Jesus died on cross, was punished for our sins and still not have received the Holy Spirit and been saved.

Do you believe a person that believes this as a fact is saved?

I'll be clear about something. Being made alive is the same thing as being saved, is the same thing as having received the Holy Spirit

I will try to point out the difference in our view. You can affirm if it's correct.

1. You believe being dead in sin means you are unable to respond to the gospel. I believe being dead in sin means your current state of being is towards condemnation.

2. You believe you have to be made alive to respond to the gospel. I believe you are to respond to the gospel (while being dead in sin) to be made alive.

3. We agree that responding to the gospel is impossible without the intervention of the Holy Spirit.

4. You believe you have been made alive when the Holy Spirit intervenes in your life. I believe you are still dead in sin when the Holy Spirit intervenes in your life, until you respond by repentance.

5. I believe when the Holy Spirit intervenes in your life you are convicted. IOW you realize you are dead in sin, that your current direction in life is towards damnation. This leads you to repent. I'm not sure what you believe about conviction.
 
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Hammster

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1. You believe being dead in sin means you are unable to respond to the gospel. I believe being dead in sin means your current state of being is towards condemnation.

2. You believe you have to be made alive to respond to the gospel. I believe you are to respond to the gospel (while being dead in sin) to be made alive.
Okay. So does this still apply after all of that?
Why do we need to be alive, though? What can’t a dead man do that an alive man can?

Have faith that saves.
 
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Hammster

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After repentance you get faith that saves.
Which brings us back to why would a dead man who doesn’t love Christ repent? You are acting as if loving Christ and being sorrowful for sin are two different aspects. So it looks like that someone can be convicted of sin, repent of that sin, and then somehow and for some reason start loving Christ.
 
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John Mullally

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After repentance you get faith that saves.
Paul says that faith comes from hearing the word of God. That is why preaching of the gospel is so important. Although many are not inclined to do so, hearing the word of God is something anyone can choose to do.

Romans 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Satan works to keep people from seeing the light of the gospel - which you can also think of as hearing the gospel

2 Cor 4:4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.​
 
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zoidar

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Which brings us back to why would a dead man who doesn’t love Christ repent? You are acting as if loving Christ and being sorrowful for sin are two different aspects. So it looks like that someone can be convicted of sin, repent of that sin, and then somehow and for some reason start loving Christ.

You explain exactly how it was for me. I got convicted. In despair over that I was going to miss out of heaven I turned to God, if by any chance He would forgive me. And He showed me mercy and I was forgiven/regenerated/born again/saved. At the very moment I was forgiven, I knew I had been saved, and I got full of love for Christ.
 
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