She got vaccinated the day her fiance tested positive for COVID-19. It was too late for him.

pitabread · Aug 3, 2021

returntosender said:
You need to keep up with the news what little there is of it. It's the new strain. Even those with vaccines are getting it. Let's blame them also.

While vaccines don't make one 100% immune, they do reduce the relative risk of contracting COVID-19 including via the new delta variant.

And that's the whole point of the vaccines; reduce the risk of contracting disease, which in turn reduces the opportunities for the disease to spread and thus controls the outbreak.

You keep trying to rationalize this all you want, but those choosing not to vaccinate are simply making things worse for everyone else and ensuring the prolonged suffering of the pandemic.

Sabertooth · Aug 3, 2021

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN said:
My dad got COVID-19 ,when he was receiving Chemo. He got the okay from his Chemo doctor.

Your doctor cannot make that call for all cancer patients, let alone those with ID.

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Aug 3, 2021

Sabertooth said:
Your doctor cannot make that call for all cancer patients, let alone those with ID.

I never said they would. I said they gave my dad permission. So there's a reason why some people taking Chemo. Would be told not to take the vaccination. I think it's up to your doctor's. If you have issues. That prevent you from taking the vaccination.

Sparagmos · Aug 3, 2021

Sabertooth said:
It is undisputed knowledge that the neo-vax does not block transmission (not disinformation...).
I only brought it up as a rebuttal to

(That would only be true of conventional vaccines, so far.)

I’m not sure you’re up to date on the vaccine, transmission, and the delta variant. Vaccinated people aren’t carrying/releasing nearly the same viral load as an unvaccinated person and wouldn’t be carrying the virus nearly as long. Less chances for it to mutate and spread. You are much safer around vaccinated people than you are around unvaccinated people.

Sparagmos · Aug 3, 2021

returntosender said:
It's obvious that some of you are not accepting of others choice or you wouldn't continue to pressure others to your way of thinking.

We shouldn’t accept choices by others that are deadly to others. I doubt you do either.

RDKirk · Aug 3, 2021

Sparagmos said:
I’m not sure you’re up to date on the vaccine, transmission, and the delta variant. Vaccinated people aren’t carrying/releasing nearly the same viral load as an unvaccinated person and wouldn’t be carrying the virus nearly as long. Less chances for it to mutate and spread. You are much safer around vaccinated people than you are around unvaccinated people.

Well, the current information is that vaccinated persons who have contracted breakthrough cases of Delta are carrying as heavy a viral load in their nasal passages as unvaccinated persons.

That appears to be hard data, although my understanding is that it's the result of one study of about 130 people...but Fauci is repeating it, so I guess he's satisfied at its validity.

I still have some questions, though: Is the nasal viral load considered indicative of the actual bodily viral load? Is it indicative of shedding of active viral particles, or is it similar to the case eventually discovered with fomites that the viral particles are identifiable but inactive? Did the study compare people with similar levels of sickness? That is, if the study contained vaccinated persons who were asymptomatic or only lightly symptomatic with unvaccinated persons who were asymptomatic or only lightly symptomatic so that we're getting an apples-to-apples comparison?

whatbogsends · Aug 4, 2021

pitabread said:
That's not what I said.

What I said is that those who choose not to vaccinate have resulted in a lot of additional needless deaths (and for the record, I said thousands, not millions). This is exactly what we've seen in the U.S. as case rates are substantially increasing and primarily in under-vaccinated populations.

So yes, the unvaccinated are largely to blame for what is going on currently. We're seeing this play out in real time.

And what are the overall mortality rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations? Not simply Covid mortality rates, but overall mortality rates.

You talk about needless deaths, but as of now, we don't have data to actually quantify if/how much the vaccines are saving lives, because we're only looking at a small slice of the total health care picture (Covid related).

pitabread · Aug 4, 2021

whatbogsends said:
And what are the overall mortality rates between the vaccinated and unvaccinated populations? Not simply Covid mortality rates, but overall mortality rates.

You talk about needless deaths, but as of now, we don't have data to actually quantify if/how much the vaccines are saving lives, because we're only looking at a small slice of the total health care picture (Covid related).

If vaccinations were causing excess mortalities in any significant fashion, we'd already know it. At least where I live, the population of vaccinated individuals has been substantially exceeding the number of COVID-19 cases.

whatbogsends · Aug 4, 2021

pitabread said:
If vaccinations were causing excess mortalities in any significant fashion, we'd already know it. At least where I live, the population of vaccinated individuals has been substantially exceeding the number of COVID-19 cases.

Without mortality statistics (either local or otherwise), how would you know it?

Sparagmos · Aug 4, 2021

RDKirk said:
Well, the current information is that vaccinated persons who have contracted breakthrough cases of Delta are carrying as heavy a viral load in their nasal passages as unvaccinated persons.

That appears to be hard data, although my understanding is that it's the result of one study of about 130 people...but Fauci is repeating it, so I guess he's satisfied at its validity.

I still have some questions, though: Is the nasal viral load considered indicative of the actual bodily viral load? Is it indicative of shedding of active viral particles, or is it similar to the case eventually discovered with fomites that the viral particles are identifiable but inactive? Did the study compare people with similar levels of sickness? That is, if the study contained vaccinated persons who were asymptomatic or only lightly symptomatic with unvaccinated persons who were asymptomatic or only lightly symptomatic so that we're getting an apples-to-apples comparison?

Oh interesting. I read recently of a study showing one of the vaccines (perhaps they tested multiple) highly effective against delta which would lead one to believe that the viral load would be low. You pose good questions there!

RDKirk · Aug 4, 2021

Sparagmos said:
Oh interesting. I read recently of a study showing one of the vaccines (perhaps they tested multiple) highly effective against delta which would lead one to believe that the viral load would be low. You pose good questions there!

Yeah, that's the puzzling thing to me. If the vaccine is highly effective--and the results we see certainly show that it is--how can it develop just as high a viral load. Even the breakthrough cases usually produce only minor symptoms, so how can the viral load be as great? That doesn't make sense to my current level of understanding.

pitabread · Aug 4, 2021

whatbogsends said:
Without mortality statistics (either local or otherwise), how would you know it?

I have been looking at mortality statistics: Provisional weekly estimates of the number of deaths, expected number of deaths and excess mortality: Interactive tool

In Canada, mortality rates have significant dropped to below expected levels as of earlier this year. Current stats go only to about April. Canada's vaccination roll-outs started back in December 2020.

We'll certainly know more in the months to come, but right now we're not seeing any immediate signs to suggest that vaccines pose any significant risk.

Sparagmos · Aug 4, 2021

RDKirk said:
Yeah, that's the puzzling thing to me. If the vaccine is highly effective--and the results we see certainly show that it is--how can it develop just as high a viral load. Even the breakthrough cases usually produce only minor symptoms, so how can the viral load be as great? That doesn't make sense to my current level of understanding.

Yeah, good question. I’m glad we have people studying the new variant so that we can understand it in time.

whatbogsends · Aug 4, 2021

pitabread said:
I have been looking at mortality statistics: Provisional weekly estimates of the number of deaths, expected number of deaths and excess mortality: Interactive tool

In Canada, mortality rates have significant dropped to below expected levels as of earlier this year. Current stats go only to about April. Canada's vaccination roll-outs started around February.

We'll certainly know more in the months to come, but right now we're not seeing any immediate signs to suggest that vaccines pose any significant risk.

Thank you for providing your reasoning and your data supporting it. Much appreciated.

What i've been seeking (and yet to find a data source for) is mortality rates for vaccinated and unvaccinated populations (preferably broken down by age groups or other demographic points). We consistently see Covid hospitalizations and deaths by this breakdown, but not overall mortality or other health outcomes (heart issues, for example), broken out by the two groups.

JustSomeBloke · Aug 4, 2021

This thread is an extreme example of the misuse of anecdata. I say that because taking a report of one covid fatality, and making an entire thread on it, is totally unscientific, and it tells us absolutely nothing about the risk that covid presents to the average person. It makes about as much sense as someone creating an 'I survived covid thread'. I think that threads like this are intended to make people emote, rather than to think rationally and logically. And anecdata such as this is the basis for creating unwarranted fear.

Sabertooth · Aug 4, 2021

Sparagmos said:
I read recently of a study showing one of the vaccines (perhaps they tested multiple) highly effective against delta which would lead one to believe that the viral load would be low.

That would be Valneva, which isn't available in the States to date.

A vaccine from France is said to be 'variant proof' — here's what we know about it

busrider · Aug 4, 2021

pitabread said:
Because we've seen the consequences of this "choice": thousands upon thousands of needlessly dead people.

And while vaccination rates are on the upswing in the U.S., it's tragic that takes heaps of dead bodies to convince people of their importance.

While quite sad, it needed to happen with the stubborn individualism and anti anything government infecting many Americans

Sabertooth · Aug 5, 2021

JustSomeBloke said:
...anecdata...

What a cool portmanteau.

She got vaccinated the day her fiance tested positive for COVID-19. It was too late for him.

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