Public School Suspensions based on race rather than behavior

Pavel Mosko said:

Here, teachers in OKC Public Schools are being lead to suspend people or forgo suspension, not solely based on their behavior, but their race. This is “equity” in action. It teaches people that they need the help of the state and society, because they inherently, because of the color of their skin, cannot succeed well without outside help.

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The actual data shows that children from some ethnic groups are regularly given greater punishment for the same infractions children from other groups are given less severe punishments.

Pavel Mosko said:

It teaches people that they need the help of the state and society, because they inherently, because of the color of their skin, cannot succeed well without outside help.

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Blaming those children for being targeted for more severe punishments than other kids get for the same offenses, is merely making excuses for the people assigning the punishments. It's not the child's fault; it's the fault of those making the decisions. To say that addressing this problem is "teaching people that they can't succeed well without outside help", is offensive and racist.

It's the usual way racists defend their racism. Never changes; "If you stop me from doing this to them, it means the people I'm harming aren't as good as other people." The kids facing this inequality of justice can't fix it by "adjusting their behavior." They aren't the ones doing it.

Is the Idea that because black children are suspended more it must be due to racism? Does it have nothing to do with the children themselves and their behavior?

If it is due to the former, maybe equity is a solution. If it is due to the latter then equity will only exacerbate the problem and reward bad behavior.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Is the Idea that because black children are suspended more it must be due to racism?

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The fact that they are given more severe punishments for the same offenses committed by other children is sort of a tip-off, yes.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Does it have nothing to do with the children themselves and their behavior?

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Apparently, that's the case. The data are very clear on that.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

If it is due to the former, maybe equity is a solution.

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The solution is to get the administrators to apply the same discipline to all children, regardless of race. If you want to call that "equity", then perhaps you mean "equality under the law."

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

If it is due to the latter then equity will only exacerbate the problem and reward bad behavior.

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The problem is, the system is currently rewarding administrators for bad behavior.

The problem is humans don't have the wisdom or nature of God. Apparently, some of them think they do.

The Barbarian said:

The fact that they are given more severe punishments for the same offenses committed by other children is sort of a tip-off, yes.



Apparently, that's the case. The data are very clear on that.



The solution is to get the administrators to apply the same discipline to all children, regardless of race. If you want to call that "equity", then perhaps you mean "equality under the law."



The problem is, the system is currently rewarding administrators for bad behavior.

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Equity cannot be equality under the law because sometimes in order to achieve equity you need to give more to one person than another. The Goal of equity is social leveling, not equal treatment. Thus the two are distinct and different objectives. Thus why Asians should get less spots at Harvard because they are more successful.

As i understand it, it is already illegal to discriminate in such a fashion. You could explain this by saying America is systematically racist or maybe it's best explained by bad behavior of the individual.

Now I'm inclined to believe that the lack of achievement or application of punishment is not due to a systemic racism but bad behavior. If however your worldview is correct and whites are systemically hold people of colour back, what legal reform could possibly be introduced to fix this? Legally mandated equal treatment is apparently already ineffective.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Equity cannot be equality under the law because sometimes in order to achieve equity you need to give more to one person than another.

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In this case, schools are giving more punishment to children of certain races than they give to others for the same offenses.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

The Goal of equity is social leveling, not equal treatment.

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That suggests that white children are not able to function as well as black or Hispanic children. The difference in punishments for the same offenses would constitute a form of "social leveling."

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

You could explain this by saying America is systematically racist or maybe it's best explained by bad behavior of the individual.

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I suspect that it's not all administrators behaving badly, but a significant number of them.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Now I'm inclined to believe that the lack of achievement or application of punishment is not due to a systemic racism but bad behavior.

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It would be so, if the system was stepping in when an administrator was behaving in this fashion. But since it hasn't been so, it's hard to see another explanation for it at this time.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

If however your worldview is correct and whites are systemically hold people of colour back, what legal reform could possibly be introduced to fix this?

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Civil Rights laws worked very effectively to do this. The Air Force, when I was in, made a strong effort to deal with racism in the system, and it worked pretty well. The key idea was to make racism unprofitable. The commander wrote that anyone unable to treat all races equally was "unfit to supervise or command." Schools need to take that approach.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Law mandated equal treatment is apparently already ineffective.

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There is that issue in the criminal justice system. It turns out that some ethnic groups are given longer sentences for the same severity of the same crimes. To some degree, it's just because the system has always worked like that, and it will take a lot of work to change the system to one that takes no regard of race in sentencing.

But that's not license to ignore it. Make it uncomfortable and dangerous for one's career to be a racist, and the behavior will decline.

Pavel Mosko said:

Well I suspect it has to do with latch key kids etc. especially in poor neighborhoods etc. A few years ago, I was a security guard, in this region of Charlotte NC that had high crime, especially theft, and most of it was coming from African Americans, especially from section 8 housing that bordered the mall.

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How would that force school administrators to give more severe punishment to black kids than to white kids for the same offenses?

How would that force school administrators to give more severe punishment to black kids than to white kids for the same offenses?

Old Lady said:

The problem is humans don't have the wisdom or nature of God. Apparently, some of them think they do.

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Some of them, maybe. Most, I think aren't even thinking about the possibility that they assign punishments by considering race.

I believe Martin Luther King said it best:

"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."

I also agree with another quote of MLK:

"People fail to get along because they fear each other; they fear each other because they don't know each other; they don't know each other because they have not communicated with each other."

I've known some very nice people of other races, including one of our pastors at a very small church in a big city.

If a person of any race is suspended for improper behavior, is it because of skin color or the behavior? Is inappropriate behavior the result of someone's upbringing or cruel parents, or bullying? Complex issues may be the result of many past experiences. Most adults don't know how to help troubled kids or to remove the bad influences on them. Are there clear solutions? No.

How many school shootings were committed by non-white students?
That doesn't mean that white people are evil. Who helped those kids before they resorted to violence?

I saw young white boys destroy a child's table and chairs that someone had put in the trash. It could have been taken to Goodwill because it was perfectly usable. Why were those boys finding so much satisfaction in what they were doing, I wonder.

The Barbarian said:

How would that force school administrators to give more severe punishment to black kids than to white kids for the same offenses?

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Who said they did? There might have been more offences being committed by black kids at those schools. I know that white kids have been put on probation and placed in Charter Schools by the authorities.

Old Lady said:

Who said they did?

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the research that was cited

Pavel Mosko said:

But when you have this sort of thing going on, you can't really blame all the problems that black people face on racism etc.

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Yet every attack you just posted here is based on race

Old Lady said:

Who said they did?

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A number of studies of school discipline.

Black children are more likely to be disciplined than white kids for the same behavior
African-American middle-school and high-school boys were more likely to be seen as troublemakers, and their misbehavior more severe, than Caucasian counterparts for exactly the same behavior, researchers found.
Black children are more likely to be disciplined than white kids for the same behavior

Perhaps white students respond to discipline more than black students, which explains
why there is a difference ?

I don't know I've never worked in a school system.

JimR-OCDS said:

Perhaps white students respond to discipline more than black students, which explains
why there is a difference ?

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Let me think about that... black students might indeed respond to getting more severe consequences for the same offense as white students get.

But I don't think it's the response you'd like to have. Ask yourself how you would respond to that if you were in the group that was the target of discrimination.

I don't know I've never worked in a school system.

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Human nature works pretty much the same for everyone.

Pavel Mosko said:

A face book friend posted this today


Michael Patton

Here, teachers in OKC Public Schools are being lead to suspend people or forgo suspension, not solely based on their behavior, but their race. This is “equity” in action. It teaches people that they need the help of the state and society, because they inherently, because of the color of their skin, cannot succeed well without outside help. If that is not offensive and racist, I don’t know what is. I am Cherokee (at least enough have me and my family on the role). I don’t need anyone’s help. I will just adjust my behavior. Equity is NOT equality. It is the opposite. Equality considers the heart alone and is colorblind. What is presented in equity, the functional arm of Critical Race Theory, forces us to patronize someone due to their race.
If ever there was a need for us to recognize a wolf in sheep’s clothing, it is now.
How am I wrong?


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The photo you posted, if evidence of anything, shows that teachers are suspending black kids more. Yes, that’s racist.