The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Hmm

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It's not about "the thinking."

It's about the text, in light of all Scripture.

It's going to be rather difficult to understand the text without thinking, no? What do you suggest - staring at a page of the Bible but trying really hard not to have any thoughts?
 
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Clare73

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It's going to be rather difficult to understand the text without thinking, no? What do you suggest - staring at a page of the Bible but trying really hard not to have any thoughts?
I suggest doing more homework to get to the bottom of the issue, as in post #1120.
 
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Clare73

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NT Wright is widely regard as the leading Pauline theologian in the world so he doesn't write "secular literature" and I doubt he needs advice on not to compare apples with oranges. As I said, you've made your case, I've read it but I don't find it convincing. We're just going to round in circles.
Not in all halls of theology.
 
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I suggest doing more homework to get to the bottom of the issue, as in post #1120.

But what was the source of the info in your post? That's relevant because of all the mistranslations going back to the very first English Bibles.
 
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Clare73

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But what was the source of the info in your post? That's relevant because of all the mistranslations going back to the very first English Bibles.
What good are translations in understanding the Greek?
 
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Clare73

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It is incredible how much damage has been caused by mistranslations from the original Greek that have been perpetuated over the centuries. And almost as incredible is the insistence of some to stick fast to these mistranslations despite all that biblical scholars and historical linguists say :scratch:
It's not about mistranslations, it's about meaning/translation of idiomatic phrases.
 
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Clare73

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A search on the phrase, "the age to come" yields some interesting results.
Matthew 12:32 - Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Mark 10:30 - will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
  1. Luke 18:30
    will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

  2. Luke 20:35
    But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,

  3. 1 Corinthians 10:11
    These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come.

  4. Ephesians 1:21
    far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Sounds like a reference to the next age--eternity to me.
 
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Clare73

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Here are a couple more.
First, "the culmination of the ages".
1 Corinthians 10:11 - These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the culmination of the ages has come
Hebrews 9:26 - Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Sounds like the Church Age is the last age before eternity.
Next, "present age". Mark 10:30 - will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.
Galatians 1:4 - who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Ephesians 1:21 - far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Sounds like the Church Age followed by the Age of Eternity to me.
Titus 2:12 - It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
Sounds like the Church Age to me.
 
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It's not about mistranslations, it's about meaning/translation of idiomatic phrases.

Mistranslations cause misunderstandings. Here's an example from an article I was reading about whether we have second chances after death:

"Well, many friends of the doctrine of further chances cite I Peter 3:19-20 and I Peter 4:6 as supporting their position.

[Note: The NIV scandalously translates the beginning of I Peter 4:6 as “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,” confessing in a study note to the NIV Study Bible — users of NIV’s other than the NIV Study Bible don’t get this warning — that “the word ‘now’ does not occur in the Greek,” and explaining that the reason they’ve added it is that, for reasons coming from another part of the Bible, not even in the book of I Peter, they believe that there are no further chances after death. Now, the case they give in that note for the doctrine of no further chances is hopelessly weak. (We’ll encounter it below.) But put that aside for the moment. The more pressing point here is that this practice of doctoring a translation to protect the theological positions that the translators happen to hold on controversial issues is deplorable. The much more responsible NRSV, true to its general character, more reliably translates this passage as, “For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead.” This better translation leaves the matter of whether “the dead” refers to people who were dead when they were preached to or rather to those who were dead at the time of the writing of I Peter about as open as it is in the original Greek. The NIV translators, on the other hand, for no respectable reason, add a word to close down the reading, left open in the Greek, that doesn’t best serve their own theological purposes, though it seems the more natural of the two readings.]"
 
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Saint Steven

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I can see why this reasoning would be appealing, but it seems the opposite is just as true. God's glory does not depend on man's redemption. Whether a single man or all men are redeemed, God remains just as glorious. So to hang a contingency on God's glory reduces Him.
If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement, would you brag about his good character?
 
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Saint Steven

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Are you forwarding Romans 5:18-19 as having the intent, within the context of the Bible, of teaching UR?
Are you surprised by that? (Do I need to explain it to you?)
What part of "everyone gets saved" don't you understand?
UR = Ultimate Redemption (or, Universal Reconciliation, or Universal Restoration)
If everyone is redeemed, or reconciled, or restored, it's UR.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Ceallaigh

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I can see why this reasoning would be appealing, but it seems the opposite is just as true. God's glory does not depend on man's redemption. Whether a single man or all men are redeemed, God remains just as glorious. So to hang a contingency on God's glory reduces Him.

The Bible is full of passages about the redemption of mankind being to the glory of God. The salvation of mankind through the crucifixion and resurrection itself was a contingency plan.
 
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Clare73

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NT Wright is widely regard as the leading Pauline theologian in the world so he doesn't write "secular literature" and I doubt he needs advice on not to compare apples with oranges. As I said, you've made your case, I've read it but I don't find it convincing. We're just going to round in circles.
Then demonstrate your point by showing his argument regarding aionios and kolasis for comparison to mine.
 
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Clare73

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"The author of over seventy books, Wright is highly regarded in academic and theological circles for his "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series."

N. T. Wright - Wikipedia
Don't see anyone presenting his case though, it's all just talk about it.
 
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The Bible is full of passages about the redemption of mankind being to the glory of God. The salvation of mankind through the crucifixion and resurrection itself was a contingency plan.
Salvation is for the glory of God, but God's glory doesn't depend on it. The salvation is an expression of the fact that God is glorious, not an increase to His glory. It reduces God to place His glory as contingent on something in creation.
 
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