The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Saint Steven said:

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

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That's what I'm working with this these days. It's all about ages. Some hate this idea. No no, no more ages. You die, you're judged, that's it. Nothing changes after this age. There will be nothing new.

Saint Steven said:

I've seen that acronym popping up occasionally here, but didn't know what it meant. I just figured it out. lol

AFAIK = As Far As I Know.

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Yes, that's what it means, AFAIK anyway

Saint Steven said:

I've seen that acronym popping up occasionally here, but didn't know what it meant. I just figured it out. lol

AFAIK = As Far As I Know.

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Aye, but YMMV.

Saint Steven said:

I drive a Prius for work and use the company credit card. So I don't worry too much about that. I did need to look up MMXX though, just to be sure I wasn't missing something.

I hope I haven't taken us off topic. Oh wait, it's my topic... no worries. We needed a break anyway.

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2020, a year that will live in infamy.

Hmm said:

Your assessment of "kolasis" - I'm not sure why you've introduced a new word "timora" without saying why - differs considerably then from that of the scholars referred to in my last post.

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More than your word is required for that to be correct.

I don't think therefore that there's anything more to be gained from continuing this because I simply do not accept that your analysis is accurate.

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MMXX said:

Actually it's having a different opinion as to how God will execute His justice according to scripture. Not scripture as in isolated verses, but in the overall message of scripture.

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Agreed.

There is no singular over-all message of Scripture.

Hmm said:

Not at all. I think justice is as important as you do. I just don't think it can be achieved by an infinity of torment.
No, I've been looking with an open mind at what the current thinking is on this issue, which involves a reassessment of what the early church thought, and drawn my conclusions.

This issue has a tendency to go around in circles

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It's not about "the thinking."

It's about the text, in light of all Scripture.

Hmm said:

Your assessment of "kolasis" - I'm not sure why you've introduced a new word "timora" without saying why - differs considerably then from that of the scholars referred to in my last post. I don't think therefore that there's anything more to be gained from continuing this because I simply do not accept that your analysis is accurate.

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Not quite, and "timora" is a natural contrast with "kolasis" because they are the two primary Greek words for punishment. If you look in lexicons they'll usually be linked, such as in the New Testament Word Study Dictionary which has:

851. κόλασις kólasis; gen. koláseōs, fem. noun from kolázō (2849), to punish. Punishment (Matt. 25:46), torment (1 John 4:18), distinguished from timōrı́a (5098), punishment, which in Class. Gr. has the predominating thought of the vindictive character of the punishment which satisfies the inflicter’s sense of outraged justice in defending his own honor or that of the violated law.

Looking to secular literature primarily to define Biblical terms isn't an accurate way to go about it, as the strata of thought of secular Greek literature is predominantely Greek thought while the Bible uses Greek to convey Jewish ideas. Hellenistic literature and inter-testimonial literature both use "kolasis" without the indication of correction. So the issue is the scholar is comparing apples and oranges.

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Fervent said:

Looking to secular literature primarily to define Biblical terms isn't an accurate way to go about it,

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Fervent said:

So the issue is the scholar is comparing apples and oranges.

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NT Wright is widely regard as the leading Pauline theologian in the world so he doesn't write "secular literature" and I doubt he needs advice on not to compare apples with oranges. As I said, you've made your case, I've read it but I don't find it convincing. We're just going to round in circles.

MMXX said:

Actually it's having a different opinion as to how God will execute His justice according to scripture. Not scripture as in isolated verses, but in the overall message of scripture.

And a universalist would say it's you who brings God down to your size, that in your thinking and your ways, you make him too small. They believe their view gives God more glory in having a much greater victory over sin and death.

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I can see why this reasoning would be appealing, but it seems the opposite is just as true. God's glory does not depend on man's redemption. Whether a single man or all men are redeemed, God remains just as glorious. So to hang a contingency on God's glory reduces Him.

Saint Steven said:

Oftentimes the best we can do is point to the end result. The process is mostly implied and a bit of a mystery. Like everything else in the afterlife.

This scripture makes it clear that the end result is already in place. It is completely out of our hands. The application of this scripture will play out for all of humankind in time.

Everything hinges on the acts of two men, which effect the entirety of humankind.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

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Are you forwarding Romans 5:18-19 as having the intent, within the context of the Bible, of teaching UR?

Hmm said:

NT Wright is widely regard as the leading Pauline theologian in the world so he doesn't write "secular literature" and I doubt he needs advice on not to compare apples with oranges. As I said, you've made your case, I've read it but I don't find it convincing. We're just going to round in circles.

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I've made no case, I've countered your objections. NT Wright is certainly an accomplished scholar, but that doesn't make a case built on defining a word outside of its context cogent. Would you define a legal term based on how it's used in pop music? Or look to modern crime novels to define a religious term like "justification?" Where a word is used is the biggest consideration in understanding its meaning. Context is king.

Saint Steven said:

Have you seen this?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

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All those verses do not use aionios, (unending, eternal),
they use aion (age, era).

The word aionios means either duration
a) undefined but not endless (Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2), or
b) undefined because endless (Romans 16:26, and over 60 other places in the NT).

The predominate meaning of aionios (unending, eternal) the one used everywhere in the NT, except the three above, is its contrast with proskairos ("for a season"), ending, as in 2 Corinthians 4:18 or Philemon 15.

Furthermore, as I've demonstrated before, when you consider all the verses where aionios is used in the NT where its meaning is indisputable, then you can know its meaning in "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46.

In the following, aionios is used of things that we know are without end, unending and, because of its certain meaning therein, we do know what the NT usage and meaning of aionios is; i.e., "without end, unending."

Romans 16:26 - "eternal God" = we know God is without end,
1 Timothy 6:16 - "eternal might" = we know God's might is without end,
1 Peter 5:10 - "eternal glory" = we know God's glory is without end,
Hebrews 9:14 - "eternal Holy Spirit = we know the Holy Spirit is without end,
Hebrews 9:12 - "eternal redemption" = we know redemption is without end,
Hebrews 5:9 - "eternal salvatin" = we know salvation is without end,
2 Peter 1:11 - "eternal kiingdom = we know the kingdom is without end (per Luke 1:33),
John 3:16 - "eternal life" = we know eternal life is without end (per John 10:28),
2 Corinthians 5:1 = "eternal house" = we know the resurrection body is without end (per 1 Corinthians 15:53).

Therefore, we know the meaning of aionios (eternal) in
Matthew 25:46 = "eternal punishment" is punishment without end (John 5:29) in the
Matthew 18:8 = "eternal fire" without end, (Mark 9:43, Luke 3:17)
for those whose names are not in the Book of Life (Philippians 4:3),
see Revelation 20:12, Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:27.

Now to the word aion, which is the word used in the Scriptures which you presented:
The word aion (age) is a period of indefinte duration, or a period in terms of what takes place in the period; i.e., a period marked by spiritual or moral characteristics.

Phrases using aion are idiomatic expressions referring to undefined periods of time and are not to be translated literally, but in terms of its sense of indefinite duration, as in
ei aiona ("unto an age") forever in Jude 13;
est ton aiona (unto the age) forever in Hebrews 5:6, "a priest est ton aiona ("unto the age") forever in the order of Melchizedek," as well as Matthew 21:19; Mark 3:29, 11:14; Luke 1:55; John 4:4, 6:51, 58, 8:35, 51-52, 10:28, 11:26, 12:34, 13:8, 14:16, 1 Corinthians 8:13; 2 Corinthians 9:9; Hebrews 6:20, 7:17, 21, 24, 28; 1 Peter 1:25; 1 John 2:17; 2 John 2;
eis tous aionas ("unto the ages") forever in Matthew 6:13; Luke 1:33; Romans 1:25, 9:5, 11:36, 16:27, etc.;
eis tous aionas ton aionon ("unto the ages of the ages") forever and ever, or evermore in Galatians 1:15; Philippians 4:20; 1 Timothy 1:17, etc.;
eis aionas aionon ("unto ages of ages") forever and ever as in Revelation 14:11;
eis ton aiona tou aionos "(unto the age of the age") forever and ever as in Hebrews 1:8;
tou ainoos ton aionon ("of the age of the ages") forever and ever as in Ephesians 3:21;
eis pantas tous aionas ("unto all the ages") forever more as in Jude 25;
eis hemeran aionos ("unto a day of an age") forever in 2 Peter 3:18.

All of which is irrelelvant to the meaning of the word "punishment."
So let's talk about kolasis (punishment).
First of all, it is used twice in the NT, and it means to curtail, prune, dock.

In 1 John 4:18, "Fear has punishment (torment--kolasis) [fear is punishing--kolasis] and he who fears is not perfect in love."
The punishment there is that sense of sin which induces a slavish fear, which
is a docking, curtailing, pruning of perfect love
Fear has docking, curtailing, pruning, restraining (i.e., punishment).

In Matthew 25:46, "eternal punishment" would be an unending restraining/curtailing imprisonment
(as in 1 Peter 3:19, 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 6), and in agreement with the multitude of Scriptures where Jesus presents unending punishment in Gehenna (Mark 9:43, 45, 47-48;
Matthew 5:22, 12:31, 13:30, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46; Luke 16:24).

"Eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:46 means unending imprisonment in Gehenna.