Open Theism in Medieval Judaism

Silly Uncle Wayne

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This discussion reminds me of Rabbi Harold Kushner.
Having looked him up on Wikipedia, I'm not surprised.

One of the things I discovered when researching the 'Omnis' is that they are man-made philosophical definitions that try to say that God has no logical limits. The writers of the Bible on the other hand simply said that they did not know what the limits of God were (unsearchable).
 
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Mark Quayle

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While I disagree with open theism, it's a false accusation that open theism is a modern innovation. Open theism was taught by the medieval Jewish philosopher Gersonides, as well as other medieval Jewish thinkers, based on Genesis 22:12.

Genesis 22:12
“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”



The reason why open theism doesn't contradict God's perfection is because, according to open theists, the future is unknowable because, by definition, it doesn't yet exist.

Asking if God can know a future that doesn't exist yet is, according to open theism, like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't lift it.

According to open theism, while God knows beforehand all the choices open to each individual, He doesn't know ahead of time exactly what man's choice will be. At the same time, God is able to fulfill prophecy by, in real time, influencing events to His will.

Open theism, just like Calvinism, Molinism, Arminianism, provisionism, etc. is a legitimate interpretation of scripture, since it has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation.

"In Essentials Unity, In Non-Essentials Liberty, In All Things Charity."

I disagree with open theism because I don't think it's strong enough on the fulfillment of prophecy, but I could be wrong, and it has nothing to do with the essentials of salvation anyway.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories
Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism
God, i.e. omnipotent first cause, is not subject to any principle, including the future. He is the CAUSE of the future.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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God, i.e. omnipotent first cause, is not subject to any principle, including the future. He is the CAUSE of the future.

That's assuming God casually determines everything which comes to pass, which wouldn't make sense of scripture passages where God appears to change His mind based on human decisions.
 
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Mark Quayle

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That's assuming God casually determines everything which comes to pass, which wouldn't make sense of scripture passages where God appears to change His mind based on human decisions.
Casually? Even if you mean 'causally', those passages make perfect sense when God 'talks down to' those who assume constancy (validity) to their mindset. Further, such things as him 'changing his mind' grammatically can mean 'changes the direction of his action' and the like.

On top of that, there is the principle given in such as Moses' case, where God put in place ahead of time everything that was needed for him to 'change his mind'. This is part of why the Reformed refer to the "two wills of God": we have the revealed will of God, with its revealed consequences for obedience/disobedience, and we have the hidden will of God, which cannot be undone.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” He said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”
This verse does not prove " open theism" . God is allowing Abraham to "process" his choice of obedience by sharing the experience with him on a human level. Another example would be God seemingly not knowing where Adam and Eve are in the garden when in fact He did know. Adam and Eve needed to realize their actions while God shared in their process. God knows the end to the means however we do not .So is God lying when He says " now I know" absolutely not.
He in fact is confirming to Abraham what He already knew but Abraham did not know but now does know.
Be blessed,
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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This verse does not prove " open theism" . God is allowing Abraham to "process" his choice of obedience by sharing the experience with him on a human level. Another example would be God seemingly not knowing where Adam and Eve are in the garden when in fact He did know. Adam and Eve needed to realize their actions while God shared in their process. God knows the end to the means however we do not .So is God lying when He says " now I know" absolutely not.
He in fact is confirming to Abraham what He already knew but Abraham did not know but now does know.
Be blessed,
Did he say that it proved Open Theism? Your description of what God knows is not found in the text... which is the point and why it implies Open Theism.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This video explains open theism with scripture alone:

I've read the book (Openness of God), have a relative (philosophy professor) who believes it, and what I saw of the video is pretty much the same. They not only believe that God is a victim (yes, my extrapolation of what they say) of the future, but that freewill (as in uncaused choice) is the only way man can be responsible for his choices. They are wrong on both counts.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Did he say that it proved Open Theism? Your description of what God knows is not found in the text... which is the point and why it implies Open Theism.
It is implied in the rhetoric of the text here, and many places, as the Bible does not contradict itself, implying here that God didn't actually know something when elsewhere it is said that God knows everything.

If the future doesn't exist, there is no future. But God is not encumbered by our philosophies, our thinking, our concepts, nor, in fact, any principle at all, time or non-time.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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It is implied in the rhetoric of the text here, and many places, as the Bible does not contradict itself, implying here that God didn't actually know something when elsewhere it is said that God knows everything.

If the future doesn't exist, there is no future. But God is not encumbered by our philosophies, our thinking, our concepts, nor, in fact, any principle at all, time or non-time.
The problem is you are taking some verses and making it say something about God and then making excuses for other verses that say or imply otherwise. Open Theists do this too, but with the contra verses.

So God knowing everything in most verses refers to God knowing everything about something specific, rather than knowing others. In other instances a case can be made for rhetoric implying (as in the OT) that God's knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend. This then allows the verses that show God not knowing something to be truthful (e.g. God telling Jonah that Ninevah will be destroyed).
 
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Humble_Disciple

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This verse does not prove " open theism" . God is allowing Abraham to "process" his choice of obedience by sharing the experience with him on a human level. Another example would be God seemingly not knowing where Adam and Eve are in the garden when in fact He did know. Adam and Eve needed to realize their actions while God shared in their process. God knows the end to the means however we do not .So is God lying when He says " now I know" absolutely not.
He in fact is confirming to Abraham what He already knew but Abraham did not know but now does know.
Be blessed,

What open theism does for these passages is take the texts at their word, rather than reading into them an outside philosophy. Isn't that what sola scriptura is all about?
 
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Mark Quayle

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The problem is you are taking some verses and making it say something about God and then making excuses for other verses that say or imply otherwise. Open Theists do this too, but with the contra verses.

So God knowing everything in most verses refers to God knowing everything about something specific, rather than knowing others. In other instances a case can be made for rhetoric implying (as in the OT) that God's knowledge is beyond what we can comprehend. This then allows the verses that show God not knowing something to be truthful (e.g. God telling Jonah that Ninevah will be destroyed).

Apparently you are misunderstanding me. I am not making excuses for any verses. I am saying the implications some draw from some verses are wrong, if those implications contradict Scripture, not to mention contradicting good sense.

If God is God, i.e. omnipotent first cause, there is nothing he does not know, just as Scripture says many times. When in places, such as with Abraham's test concerning sacrificing his son Isaac, it says, "Now I know" the construction is like when a court says, "I find". There is no implication that he did not know if Abraham would be faithful. In modern English, the thought is closer to "now it is proven". There are many other such passages where God speaks this way.

But I do agree, no matter how well this is understood, nor how accurately, the truth of the matter is likely to be more strange than we can understand at present, though obviously, once we see him as he is, it won't seem strange at all; but it will seem strange to us that we so confidently thought we knew what we claim now.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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It's kind of strange when Christians who claim to believe in sola scriptura label open theists as heretics, simply for taking the many Biblical passages showing God changing His mind based on human decisions at their word, rather than reading into them an outside philosophy.

Open Theism Bible Verses in 33 Categories | Open Theism

If the future doesn't exist yet then, by definition, it's unknowable by God. It's like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't life it.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Gersonides - Wikipedia

It's okay to disagree with open theism, but the idea that it's a recent invention is absurd, considering how widely it was already taught in medieval Judaism, based on a reading of actual passages in the Bible.

If one accepts that prophecies are promises of God influencing future events, rather than sovereignly decreeing them at the beginning of time, and that election is a corporate election of the church, rather than individual souls to salvation, as election was understood for Israel in the Old Testament, than there's nothing wrong with open theism.

The Corporate View of Election

Open theists, like Molinists, Calvinists, Arminians, etc., are our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
 
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Mark Quayle

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What open theism does for these passages is take the texts at their word, rather than reading into them an outside philosophy. Isn't that what sola scriptura is all about?
Not if the "texts at their word" means eisegesis and ignoring of Scripture to the contrary.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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What open theism does for these passages is take the texts at their word, rather than reading into them an outside philosophy. Isn't that what sola scriptura is all about?
So you say God does not know what we will choose,decide etc. because these verses must be taken literally or at face value?
For example:
Is it so unheard of for a parent, who already knows who stole the cookie, to engage with that child as if not knowing only to have them come to the truth on their own volition?

God deals with humanity in many ways. Like a Father and child.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If the future doesn't exist yet then, by definition, it's unknowable by God. It's like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't life it.

If, to God, the future existed as soon as he spoke all fact into existence, it is HUMAN philosophy that says otherwise. TO US, it may not yet exist. That by no means implies that it does not exist.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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So you say God does not know what we will choose,decide etc. because these verses must be taken literally or at face value?

I am saying there's nothing heretical about taking these verses at their word, especially since many medieval Jewish philosophers already did.

If the future doesn't exist yet then, by definition, it's unknowable by God. It's like asking if God can create a rock so big that even He can't life it.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Horowitz explained the apparent paradox of his position by citing the old question, "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot pick it up?" He said that we cannot accept free choice as a creation of God's, and simultaneously question its logical compatibility with omnipotence.
Gersonides - Wikipedia
 
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Maria Billingsley

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If the future doesn't exist yet then, by definition, it's unknowable by God.
This statment is not particularly a good way to prove Calvanism wrong. It causes a whole other set of problems. God simply knows the future but does not control the future however He can if it is in His will. . Blessings.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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meme-anthropomorphism-bible.png
 
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This statment is not particularly a good way to prove Calvanism wrong. It causes a whole other set of problems. God simply knows the future but does not control the future however He can if it is in His will. . Blessings.

The medieval Jewish theologians developed their own view of open theism before Calvinism even existed. Did you read the OP?
 
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