GOD'S PEOPLE ARE TO BE A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD?

LoveGodsWord · Aug 2, 2021

TedT said:
No.

Good answer Ted, what do you think sin is are defined in the bible?

Francis Drake · Aug 2, 2021

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Exodus19v6 And ye shall be to me a royal priesthood and a holy nation: these words shalt thou speak to the children of Israel.

When Peter quotes the same words from Exodus (Greek Septuagint translation of OT), it was an indication that the believers in the NT are following in the footsteps of Israel in the OT

Interestingly, the status of Royal priesthood and Holy Nation was originally given to the whole house of Israel, not just one tribe.
So how come the tribe of Levi alone gained the priesthood?
Remember when Moses was up the mountain and the people rebelled and made the golden calf?

Ex32v25Moses saw that the people were out of control, for Aaron had let them run wild and become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So Moses stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites gathered around him. 27He told them, “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each of you men is to fasten his sword to his side, go back and forth through the camp from gate to gate, and slay his brother, his friend, and his neighbor.’ ”…

As can be seen, the only tribe that stood for the Lord was Levi, with the remaining tribes completely abdicating the promises of God. That's why only Levi inherited the priesthood, but that was not God's original intention.

Sadly, the church has done likewise in again abdicated its priesthood, handing it over to a professional clergy, completely ignoring Peter's instructions.

TedT · Aug 2, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Good answer Ted, what do you think sin is are defined in the bible?

Sin has a multitude of definitions when it refers to specific crimes BUT all sin has one thing in common, it breaks the accord or continues to break any accord with GOD's righteousness.

Francis Drake · Aug 3, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
If the Royal Priesthood is holy and holy means to be without sin and obedient to Gods Word if we are practicing known unrepentant sin then are we a part of the Royal Priesthood?

Holy does not mean to be without sin.

Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy
Original Word: ἅγιος, ία, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Definition: sacred, holy
Usage: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.
HELPS Word-studies
40 hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world."

The fundamental (core) meaning of 40 (hágios) is "different" – thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios ("holy") because different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay). In the NT, 40 /hágios ("holy") has the "technical" meaning "different from the world" because "like the Lord."

[40 (hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.]

The word simply means to be set apart as different, in this case set apart to the Lord. But the word generally translated as holy in the OT is also applied to the sodomites, who were set apart for Baal worship.

Francis Drake · Aug 3, 2021

Albion said:
And that is often misinterpreted. However, the infallible word of God ALSO refers repeatedly to deacons, presbyters, and bishops, gives the qualifications needed, and more. THEREFORE, this Biblical witness cannot simply be brushed aside as uninspired, optional, or "human-created."

Deacon, presbyters, bishops are certainly written in the scriptures, but they were never written as any form of priesthood over the church.
The way these characters operate today in elevating themselves over the body of Christ is completely contrary to scripture and contrary to the priesthood of all believers.

Albion · Aug 3, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Deacon, presbyters, bishops are certainly written in the scriptures, but they were never written as any form of priesthood over the church.

They are the clergy--the pastors, ministers, superintendents--whatever one's denomination may call their ordained worship leaders and administrators.

I think the "problem" with a lot of people is the word "priesthood" and misunderstanding that we're not talking about a Christian version of the Old Testament Hebrew priests.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 3, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Holy does not mean to be without sin.

Strong's Concordance
hagios: sacred, holy
Original Word: ἅγιος, ία, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Definition: sacred, holy
Usage: set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred.
HELPS Word-studies
40 hágios – properly, different (unlike), other ("otherness"), holy; for the believer, 40 (hágios) means "likeness of nature with the Lord" because "different from the world."

The fundamental (core) meaning of 40 (hágios) is "different" – thus a temple in the 1st century was hagios ("holy") because different from other buildings (Wm. Barclay). In the NT, 40 /hágios ("holy") has the "technical" meaning "different from the world" because "like the Lord."

[40 (hágios) implies something "set apart" and therefore "different (distinguished/distinct)" – i.e. "other," because special to the Lord.]

The word simply means to be set apart as different, in this case set apart to the Lord. But the word generally translated as holy in the OT is also applied to the sodomites, who were set apart for Baal worship.

You missed in your Strong's concordance reading that a part of the definition of to be holy is applied to being like to the character of God which is sinless * 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15 "likeness to the nature of God", that is, Holy means to be dedicated or separated or set apart to God and in the moral sense sharing God's purity, character and nature. For example, the same Greek word ἅγιος, (G40) is used for the Greek word used in the English translated as "saints" (ἅγιος - G40) being in obedience to God's commandments.

If you look at Revelation 14:12 you will see the application of God's people that are set apart to God being holy translated as saints are keeping all the commandments of God. Sin in the bible is defined as breaking the commandments of God in James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7 and it is through the broken law that the bible defines what sin is *Romans 3:20. God's saint's are therefore set apart to holiness, that is they are consecrated and dedicated to God in likeness of his purity keeping all the commandments of God according to the scriptures...

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints (ἅγιος - G40): here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be you holy (ἅγιος - G40); for I am holy (ἅγιος - G40).

Note: In the above scriptures the application to "saints" is to God's people having purity and likeness of character to God being sinless and obedient to Gods' law. Application is also applied to being holy as God is holy (without sin). This is also shown in the Greek lexicon use of ἅγιος - G40 being sinless and upright having purity of character being obedient to God's law.

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G40
G40 — ἅγιος (from τό ἀγός religious awe, reverence; ἄζω, ἅζομαι, to venerate, revere, especially the gods, parents (Curtius, § 118)), rare in secular authors; very frequent in the sacred writings; in the Sept. for קָדושׁ; In a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright, holy: 1Pet 1:16 (Lev 19:2; 11:44); 1Co 7:34; δίκαιος καί ἅγιος, of John the Baptist, Mark 6:20; ἅγιος καί δίκαιος, of Christ, Acts 3:14; distinctively of him, Rev 3:7; 6:10; of God pre-eminently, 1Pet 1:15; John 17:11; ἅγιαι ἀναστροφαί, 2Pet 3:11; νόμος and ἐντολή, i. e. containing nothing exceptionable, Rom 7:12; φίλημα, such a kiss as is a sign of the purest love, 1Thes 5:26; 1Co 16:20; 2Co 13:12; Rom 16:16. On the phrase τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα and τό πνεῦμα τό ἅγιον, see πνεῦμα, 4 a. Cf. Diestel, Die Heiligkeit Gottes, in Jahrbb. f. deutsch. Theol. iv., p. 1ff; (Baudissin, Stud. z. Semitisch. Religionsgesch. Heft ii., p. 3ff; Delitzsch in Herzog edition 2, see 714ff; especially) Cremer, Wörterbuch, 4te Aufl., p. 32ff (translation of 2nd edition, p. 84ff; Oehler in Herzog 19:618ff; Zezschwitz, Profangräcität as above with, p. 15ff; Trench, § lxxxviii; Campbell, Dissertations, diss. vi., part iv.; especially Schmidt, chapter 181).

Greek Lexicon Of The New Testament, Abbott-Smith - G40
G40 - ἅγιος, - α, - ον (< το ἅγος, religious awe; ἅζω, to venerate),[in LXX chiefly for H6945;]
primarily, dedicated to the gods, sacred (Hdt.; rare in Att..., never in Horn., Hes. and Trag., who use ἁγνός), hence, holy, characteristic of God, separated to God, worthy of veneration. 1. Its highest application is to God himself, in his purity, majesty, and glory: Luke 1:49, John 17:11, Rev 4:8. Hence (a) of things and places which have a claim to reverence as sacred to God, e.g. the Temple: Matt 24:15, Heb 9:1; (b) of persons employed by him, as angels: 1Thes 3:13; prophets, Luke 1:70; apostles, Eph 3:5. 2. Applied to persons as separated to God's service: (a) of Christ, Mark 1:24, John 6:69, Acts 4:30; (b) of Christians, Acts 9:13, Rom 1:7, Heb 6:10, Rev 5:8. 3. In the moral sense of sharing God's purity: Mark 6:20, John 17:11, Acts 3:14, Rev 3:7. 4. Of pure, clean sacrifices and offerings: 1Co 7:14, Eph 1:4. SYN.: ἁγνός G53, pure, both in ceremonial and spiritual sense; ἱερός G2413 (sacer), sacred, that which is inviolable because of its (external) relation to God; ἅσιος (sanctus as opp. to nefas), that which is based on everlasting ordinances of right. (Cf. Tr., Syn., § 88; DB, 2, 399 f.; Cremer, 34, 594-601; MM, VGT, s.v.)

Both Hebrew and Greek word meanings are scripture context dependent which determines interpretation. The Hebrew and Greek word meanings in isolation of scripture context does not determine interpretation. As shown in Revelation 14:12 Gods saints who are holy G40 - ἅγιος keep all the commandments of God and God's Priesthood are Gods' saints. Therefore to be holy means to be consecrated, set apart and dedicated to God in sharing Gods purity, likeness and nature and are not practicing sin *1 John 3:6-9. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 and not believing and following what Gods Word says in Romans 14:23

Hope this is helpful

Ligurian · Aug 3, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Deacon, presbyters, bishops are certainly written in the scriptures, but they were never written as any form of priesthood over the church.
The way these characters operate today in elevating themselves over the body of Christ is completely contrary to scripture and contrary to the priesthood of all believers.

Agreed.

Matthew 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no [man] your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.

Jeremias 31:33 For this is My Covenant which I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My laws into their mind, and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people. 34 And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen, and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

pescador · Aug 3, 2021

Albion said:
They are the clergy--the pastors, ministers, superintendents--whatever one's denomination may call their ordained worship leaders and administrators.

I think the "problem" with a lot of people is the word "priesthood" and misunderstanding that we're not talking about a Christian version of the Old Testament Hebrew priests.

Unless you're a Catholic!

LoveGodsWord · Aug 4, 2021

TedT said:
Sin has a multitude of definitions when it refers to specific crimes BUT all sin has one thing in common, it breaks the accord or continues to break any accord with GOD's righteousness.

Ted how do you think the bible defines sin and is sin linked to holiness?

TedT · Aug 4, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Ted how do you think the bible defines sin and is sin linked to holiness?

The ordinary verses about this is sin or that is sin suffices for me...

But holiness has two meanings:
1. to be set apart to serve GOD. I can set a knife or a candle apart from all worldly functions and use it only in my worship...it is holy.

2. A personal holiness by a personal free will decision to serve HIM by never breaking accord with HIS nature or, never again after a sinner chooses to be holy. This is the holiness of the elect angels. They are not set apart by GOD to do HIS work; they are set apart to serve HIM by their personal free will decision to never sin, to never break accord with HIS nature.

Francis Drake · Aug 5, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
You missed in your Strong's concordance reading that a part of the definition of to be holy is applied to being like to the character of God which is sinless * 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 4:15 "likeness to the nature of God", that is, Holy means to be dedicated or separated or set apart to God and in the moral sense sharing God's purity, character and nature. For example, the same Greek word ἅγιος, (G40) is used for the Greek word used in the English translated as "saints" (ἅγιος - G40) being in obedience to God's commandments.

As I said before, there is no indication in the word 'holy' of being without sin.
Paul, Peter, and John make that clear.

If you look at Revelation 14:12 you will see the application of God's people that are set apart to God being holy translated as saints are keeping all the commandments of God. Sin in the bible is defined as breaking the commandments of God in James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7 and it is through the broken law that the bible defines what sin is *Romans 3:20. God's saint's are therefore set apart to holiness, that is they are consecrated and dedicated to God in likeness of his purity keeping all the commandments of God according to the scriptures...

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints (ἅγιος - G40): here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be you holy (ἅγιος - G40); for I am holy (ἅγιος - G40).

Note: In the above scriptures the application to "saints" is to God's people having purity and likeness of character to God being sinless and obedient to Gods' law. Application is also applied to being holy as God is holy (without sin). This is also shown in the Greek lexicon use of ἅγιος - G40 being sinless and upright having purity of character being obedient to God's law.

Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Thayer - G40
G40 — ἅγιος (from τό ἀγός religious awe, reverence; ἄζω, ἅζομαι, to venerate, revere, especially the gods, parents (Curtius, § 118)), rare in secular authors; very frequent in the sacred writings; in the Sept. for קָדושׁ; In a moral sense, pure, sinless, upright, holy: 1Pet 1:16 (Lev 19:2; 11:44); 1Co 7:34; δίκαιος καί ἅγιος, of John the Baptist, Mark 6:20; ἅγιος καί δίκαιος, of Christ, Acts 3:14; distinctively of him, Rev 3:7; 6:10; of God pre-eminently, 1Pet 1:15; John 17:11; ἅγιαι ἀναστροφαί, 2Pet 3:11; νόμος and ἐντολή, i. e. containing nothing exceptionable, Rom 7:12; φίλημα, such a kiss as is a sign of the purest love, 1Thes 5:26; 1Co 16:20; 2Co 13:12; Rom 16:16. On the phrase τό ἅγιον πνεῦμα and τό πνεῦμα τό ἅγιον, see πνεῦμα, 4 a. Cf. Diestel, Die Heiligkeit Gottes, in Jahrbb. f. deutsch. Theol. iv., p. 1ff; (Baudissin, Stud. z. Semitisch. Religionsgesch. Heft ii., p. 3ff; Delitzsch in Herzog edition 2, see 714ff; especially) Cremer, Wörterbuch, 4te Aufl., p. 32ff (translation of 2nd edition, p. 84ff; Oehler in Herzog 19:618ff; Zezschwitz, Profangräcität as above with, p. 15ff; Trench, § lxxxviii; Campbell, Dissertations, diss. vi., part iv.; especially Schmidt, chapter 181).

Greek Lexicon Of The New Testament, Abbott-Smith - G40
G40 - ἅγιος, - α, - ον (< το ἅγος, religious awe; ἅζω, to venerate),[in LXX chiefly for H6945;]
primarily, dedicated to the gods, sacred (Hdt.; rare in Att..., never in Horn., Hes. and Trag., who use ἁγνός), hence, holy, characteristic of God, separated to God, worthy of veneration. 1. Its highest application is to God himself, in his purity, majesty, and glory: Luke 1:49, John 17:11, Rev 4:8. Hence (a) of things and places which have a claim to reverence as sacred to God, e.g. the Temple: Matt 24:15, Heb 9:1; (b) of persons employed by him, as angels: 1Thes 3:13; prophets, Luke 1:70; apostles, Eph 3:5. 2. Applied to persons as separated to God's service: (a) of Christ, Mark 1:24, John 6:69, Acts 4:30; (b) of Christians, Acts 9:13, Rom 1:7, Heb 6:10, Rev 5:8. 3. In the moral sense of sharing God's purity: Mark 6:20, John 17:11, Acts 3:14, Rev 3:7. 4. Of pure, clean sacrifices and offerings: 1Co 7:14, Eph 1:4. SYN.: ἁγνός G53, pure, both in ceremonial and spiritual sense; ἱερός G2413 (sacer), sacred, that which is inviolable because of its (external) relation to God; ἅσιος (sanctus as opp. to nefas), that which is based on everlasting ordinances of right. (Cf. Tr., Syn., § 88; DB, 2, 399 f.; Cremer, 34, 594-601; MM, VGT, s.v.)

Both Hebrew and Greek word meanings are scripture context dependent which determines interpretation. The Hebrew and Greek word meanings in isolation of scripture context does not determine interpretation. As shown in Revelation 14:12 Gods saints who are holy G40 - ἅγιος keep all the commandments of God and God's Priesthood are Gods' saints. Therefore to be holy means to be consecrated, set apart and dedicated to God in sharing Gods purity, likeness and nature and are not practicing sin *1 John 3:6-9. Sin is defined in the scriptures as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4 and not believing and following what Gods Word says in Romans 14:23

Hope this is helpful

Helpful?
Not really, just verbal overload that adds nothing to your case.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 5, 2021

Francis Drake said:
As I said before, there is no indication in the word 'holy' of being without sin.
Paul, Peter, and John make that clear.

Helpful?
Not really, just verbal overload that adds nothing to your case.

Yes you said this earlier, but you were shown through the scriptures your words here are not biblical and disagree with the Greek and scriptures shared with you. You were shown in a number of different Greek new testament Dictionaries that G40 — ἅγιος also means sinless or without sin. You were also shown that the application to G40 — ἅγιος to the "saint" (God's people; Royal Priesthood) in Revelation 14:12 is that they keep all the commandments of God and according to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments in James 2:10-11 and 1 John 3:4. All the above of course being God's Word not mine. These are God's Word disagreeing with your words. Gods' Word is not verbal overload according to the scriptures. It is God's Word and we should believe and follow them *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Of course you are free to believe as you wish. That would be between you and God. I prefer what God Word says.

Take Care.

Francis Drake · Aug 5, 2021

Albion said:
They are the clergy--the pastors, ministers, superintendents--whatever one's denomination may call their ordained worship leaders and administrators.

Mostly invented positions, nothing to do with the church that God created.

I think the "problem" with a lot of people is the word "priesthood" and misunderstanding that we're not talking about a Christian version of the Old Testament Hebrew priests.

Nice thought, but complete unreality.
The very act of creating these offices and titles has deprived the church of the priesthood of all believers.
God made the church as an organism, men have turned it into an organisation.
Instead of meetings being led by the Holy Spirit through the gifts, they are led by orders of service etc.

Albion · Aug 5, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Mostly invented positions, nothing to do with the church that God created.

Oh for goodness' sake! You admitted just a few posts ago that deacons, elders, presbyters, and so on are mentioned by name in a number of New Testament verses.

The very act of creating these offices and titles has deprived the church of the priesthood of all believers.

Not only were they not created by mere men but many churches have retained the 'priesthood of all believers' at the same time. Some have not, that's true, but that's the case only with them.

Francis Drake · Aug 6, 2021

Albion said:
Oh for goodness' sake! You admitted just a few posts ago that deacons, elders, presbyters, and so on are mentioned by name in a number of New Testament verses.

Note the words I used. Certainly those names are found in the NT, but the church's usage of those names have nothing to do with what God intended.

Not only were they not created by mere men but many churches have retained the 'priesthood of all believers' at the same time.

You cannot have a clergy priesthood and at the same time have the priesthood of all believers. They are anathema to each other.

Those who possess these titles invariably position themselves above the remaining members of their churches, an act which is extremely offensive to the Lord.

Albion · Aug 6, 2021

Francis Drake said:
Note the words I used. Certainly those names are found in the NT, but the church's usage of those names have nothing to do with what God intended.

Well, since they are synonyms for the words you have okayed, they certainly do. The church of Christ was set up to have certain leaders with certain responsibilities and qualifications, and because that is indicated in the New Testament itself, it absolutely IS what God intended.
You cannot have a clergy priesthood and at the same time have the priesthood of all believers. They are anathema to each other.

Those who possess these titles invariably position themselves above the remaining members of their churches, an act which is extremely offensive to the Lord.

and that--whenever it happens--has nothing to do with the positions themselves.

Francis Drake · Aug 6, 2021

Albion said:
Well, since they are synonyms for the words you have okayed, they certainly do. The church of Christ was set up to have certain leaders with certain responsibilities and qualifications, and because that is indicated in the New Testament itself, it absolutely IS what God intended.

The roles that people occupy in today's church have little to do with scripture, and the idea of a man at the front controlling the service is completely contrary to scripture.

Albion · Aug 6, 2021

Francis Drake said:
The roles that people occupy in today's church have little to do with scripture, and the idea of a man at the front controlling the service is completely contrary to scripture.

That theory is just not in accord with either scripture or history.

Francis Drake · Aug 7, 2021

Albion said:
That theory is just not in accord with either scripture or history.

So in your mind, history determines truth, and history shows Baal worship came before Christianity, so maybe you'd approve of that?
And as for scriptural proof, here it is. As you can see, the ministry does not come from the front, but the congregation, speaking via the gifts.-
1Cor14v26What then is it, brothers? When you may come together, each has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.

27If anyone speaks with a tongue, let it be by two or the most three, and in turn; and let one interpret. 28But if there is no interpreter, let him be silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God.

29And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others discern. 30But if a revelation should be made to another sitting by, let the first be silent. 31For you are all able to prophesy one by one, so that all may learn, and all may be exhorted. 32And the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. 33For He is not the God of disorder, but of peace.

The idea of a clergy led gathering is antibiblical and never found in NT scripture.

GOD'S PEOPLE ARE TO BE A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD?

Well-Known Member

Returning adventurer.

Member since Job 38:7

Returning adventurer.

Returning adventurer.

Facilitator

Well-Known Member

Cro-Magnon

Wise old man

Well-Known Member

Member since Job 38:7

Returning adventurer.

Well-Known Member

Returning adventurer.

Facilitator

Returning adventurer.

Facilitator

Returning adventurer.

Facilitator

Returning adventurer.

Similar threads