Why I don't believe in evolution...

Humble_Disciple

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The two main reasons why I don't believe in evolution, other than the lack of evidence, are that the Bible says we were created from the dust of the ground, not from an ape-like ancestor, and because there's no way to draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings.

This doesn't mean, however, that I believe earth is less than 10,000 years old, which isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. Christian geologists discovered the earth's antiquity before Darwin was even born.
 

Gene2memE

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The two main reasons why I don't believe in evolution, other than the lack of evidence,

The evidence is there, I suspect you're just ignoring it. Here's a summary from a group of Christian scientists:

What is the evidence for evolution? - Common-questions

... because there's no way to draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings.

Welcome to the natural world, where things are messy and hard lines are (usually) arbitrary.

This is not a reason not to believe in evolution - its just a reason for you not to like the conclusion drawn from it.

Also, there's no such thing a "fully evolved". And I have no evidence to suggest that humans are "spiritual beings". I don't really know what "spiritual" means in that context.

This doesn't mean, however, that I believe earth is less than 10,000 years old, which isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. Christian geologists discovered the earth's antiquity before Darwin was even born.

Ehhhhh, kinda. Sorta.

The age of the earth wasn't really a settled question until the invention of radiometric dating in the early 1900s, and then ~40 years of investigation.

When Darwin was born there was a LIVELY debate on the age of the earth, with 'scientific' estimates ranging from a few tens of thousands of years, to low billions of years.
 
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Bradskii

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The two main reasons why I don't believe in evolution, other than the lack of evidence, are that the Bible says we were created from the dust of the ground, not from an ape-like ancestor, and because there's no way to draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings.

So you say that there's a 'lack of evidence' that evolution didn't occur and say that we didn't evolve from ape-like ancestors and then give a link for the lack of evidence which actually says...that we evolved from ape-like ancestors.

'Humans may have originated from a group of chimpanzees that were isolated for up to 30,000 years...'

And you appear to be saying that God could not have granted moral consciousness and spirituality to any given human whenever He felt that we were ready for it. Whence omnipotence?

Have you actually thought this through?
 
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Humble_Disciple

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'Humans may have originated from a group of chimpanzees that were isolated for up to 30,000 years...'

If you read the article in its entirety, you will see that all the major fossils to support human evolution are suspect.

And you appear to be saying that God could not have granted moral consciousness and spirituality to any given human whenever He felt that we were ready for it. Whence omnipotence?

Where do we draw the line? At what point of history did we become fully human, in a Biblical sense?
 
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Bradskii

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If you read the article in its entirety, you will see that all the major fossils to support human evolution are suspect.

Where do we draw the line? At what point of history did we become fully human, in a Biblical sense?

If you say that evolution didn't happen and we didn't evolve from ape-like ancestors then linking to an article that claims that we did, that we actually evolved from ape-like ancestors, does not support your position. I feel a bit embarressed having to actually point that out.

Maybe you should rethink that line of argument and suggest that there are some people who have different ideas as to how we evolved. From ape-like ancestors...

Althought you should know that the article has no merit. Variations on the claim were a little popular in some circles waaay back in the day. And I mean about fifty years ago. You should inform whoever you got the link from.

And if you are asking where the line might be drawn regarding us becoming fully human then that's a question that assumes that there can be a line (although I personally disagree). At least we have advanced that aspect of the doubts that you have to an acceptance that it's possible. So where would you draw the line?
 
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Shemjaza

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If you read the article in its entirety, you will see that all the major fossils to support human evolution are suspect.
Except the article is a mix of half truths and dishonest misrepresentations... ironically to support a fringe evolutionary theory, rather than any Creationist variation.
 
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Jimmy D

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The two main reasons why I don't believe in evolution, other than the lack of evidence, are that the Bible says we were created from the dust of the ground, not from an ape-like ancestor, and because there's no way to draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings.

This doesn't mean, however, that I believe earth is less than 10,000 years old, which isn't taught anywhere in the Bible. Christian geologists discovered the earth's antiquity before Darwin was even born.

As if you care about evidence.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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Humble_Disciple

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And if you are asking where the line might be drawn regarding us becoming fully human then that's a question that assumes that there can be a line (although I personally disagree).

Exactly, which is why evolution is so problematic to a Biblical worldview, both in traditional Christianity and in Orthodox Judaism.
 
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Bradskii

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Exactly, which is why evolution is so problematic to a Biblical worldview, both in traditional Christianity and in Orthodox Judaism.

It's problematic because I disagree with it? I didn't know I was held in such esteem in both Christendom and Judaism.

Why don't you have a think about how God could have endowed us with humanity etc in a way that doesn't contradict scripture. You surely don't want me to do it.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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It's problematic because I disagree with it? I didn't know I was held in such esteem in both Christendom and Judaism.

Why don't you have a think about how God could have endowed us with humanity etc in a way that doesn't contradict scripture. You surely don't want me to do it.

I don't know why you are running away from God, but He will kindly forgive you if you tell Him sorry. It doesn't bother me one way or another if you are an atheist, but I want you to at least know that God is merciful for those who ask of His mercy.
 
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Bradskii

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I don't know why you are running away from God, but He will kindly forgive you if you tell Him sorry. It doesn't bother me one way or another if you are an atheist, but I want you to at least know that God is merciful for those who ask of His mercy.

First up, please don't treat me like some confused neophyte looking for salvation. I've thought about these matters in some depth for a lot longer than you've been on the planet.

Secondly, for the purpose of this discussion, let me agree with you that God exists. Now let's see if we can't work out how He endowed us all with spirituality whilst accepting, for the purpose of this discussion, that He arranged matters so that we arrived here via His divinely ordained process of evolution.

You first.
 
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Humble_Disciple

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First up, please don't treat me like some confused neophyte looking for salvation. I've thought about these matters in some depth for a lot longer than you've been on the planet.

Secondly, for the purpose of this discussion, let me agree with you that God exists. Now let's see if we can't work out how He endowed us all with spirituality whilst accepting, for the purpose of this discussion, that He arranged matters so that we arrived here via His divinely ordained process of evolution.

You first.

I can't tell God what to do, but I'd ask Him why He created in such a way that was contrary to what He revealed in scripture.
 
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Bradskii

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I can't tell God what to do, but I'd ask Him why He created in such a way that was contrary to what He revealed in scripture.

While you're at it, you can ask Him why none of the evidence backs up a literal reading of scripture. Maybe you can ask Him if it was meant to be read metaphorically. Let me know what He says.

And anyway, I didn't ask you to tell God to do anything. I asked you to see if you could think of a way that He could have granted us spirituality if evolution is accepted.

Any ideas?
 
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Jimmy D

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Humble_Disciple

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a shoddy article
images
 
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Humble_Disciple

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And anyway, I didn't ask you to tell God to do anything. I asked you to see if you could think of a way that He could have granted us spirituality if evolution is accepted.

If there's no clear line of demarcation that can historically and definitively be drawn for fully evolved humans, it seems to undermine the sanctity of human life. I think David Berlinski would agree with me on this.
 
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pitabread

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The two main reasons why I don't believe in evolution, other than the lack of evidence,

Fun fact: even if there weren't a single fossil, the evidence still overwhelmingly supports evolution and common ancestry.

Alternatively, if lineages were independently created, it begs the question as to why a creator would make them look like they share common ancestry.

are that the Bible says we were created from the dust of the ground, not from an ape-like ancestor, and because there's no way to draw the line of when humans became fully evolved, morally conscious, and spiritual beings.

The latter seems to speak to the high need for closure/intolerance for ambiguity among creationists.

On the latter note, it's interesting to me that when it comes to hominid fossils creationists themselves have a lot of difficultly deciding which are human and which are not.
 
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