The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
No, UR's flimsy argument is against the word of God, which they accuse of beng man's doctrine for the sake of overturnng the word of God which denies their doctrine.

Their flimsy argument is against the nature of God, which they accuse of being a construct of man because it does not agree with their small and inadequate personal concept of God.

There flimsy argument is against the God-breathed Scriptures, which they accuse of being mistranslated and interpreted because those Scriputres deny their doctrine.

Their grievance is against God, which they try to hang on man to make it acceptable.

No, it's against the doctrine you believe in. You're convinced the doctrine you subscribe to is purely the Word of God. And to go against that doctrine is the same as going against God and the Word of God. The thing is, it seems to me that I've heard Calvinists say pretty much the same thing about going against Calvinist doctrine. And Pentecostals saying pretty much the same thing about going against Pentecostal doctrine. And Seventh Day Adventists saying pretty much the same thing about going against SDA doctrine. And so on.

Read a thread where SDA is debated, like this one Why do SDA preach I was in recently, and you'll see SDA members saying the same kinds of things you said above regarding the rejection of SDA doctrine.

Clare73 · Aug 2, 2021

MMXX said:
No, it's against the doctrine you believe in.

As the Bible is against the doctrine you believe in.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
I'm not looking for proof texts, I'm looking to discuss what the Bible says. That involves in depth discussion of actual texts and their intent, not bloviating speculation and using a quantity approach instead of exegesis. What do you think is the clearest point in the Bible where the intent of the passage is to teach UR or UR is essential to the fuller understanding of the passage?

I really don't get why you are singling me out, when I already made it clear that I'm not a UR apologist. There are others in this thread, and similar ones, who have done extensive Biblical research on this particular subject. I'm not one of them. In other words, you're barking up the wrong tree.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 2, 2021

misput said:
The average believer does not have a clue about what we are discussing. In fact innumerable people throughout time have never seen a bible yet the scripture says they will be judged by the gospel of Jesus Christ so where does that leave our opinions. Not saying they are not interesting but just not very important.

Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required. I believe if we have the truth available to us and we have time in this life to study God’s Word, we are going to be held responsible for the doctrines God wants us to know. Sure, we may not come to know them overnight, but I believe if we are truth seekers, we will come to know of that truth with the help of God. For Jesus condemned the traditions of men. I believe Eternal Torment, and Calvinism are two big popular Christian beliefs today that are attacks upon the very good character of our God as revealed in the Holy Bible. But it takes diligent study with the help of God to see such truth. For 2 Timothy 2:15 says in the King James Bible to study to shew yourself approved unto God. Why? Well, as Scripture says: God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required. I believe if we have the truth available to us and we have time in this life to study God’s Word, we are going to be held responsible for the doctrines God wants us to know. Sure, we may not come to know them overnight, but I believe if we are truth seekers, we will come to know of that truth with the help of God. For Jesus condemned the traditions of men. I believe Eternal Torment, and Calvinism are two big popular Christian beliefs today that are attacks upon the very good character of our God as revealed in the Holy Bible. But it takes diligent study with the help of God to see such truth. For 2 Timothy 2:15 says in the King James Bible to study to shew yourself approved unto God. Why? Well, as Scripture says: God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

I'm sure you are well aware that many would say that you are teaching a false doctrine regarding hell, and that God will hold you responsible for it.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 2, 2021

To all:

Truth is not determined by popular evangelical Christianity. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that finds it. How much more do those who are not of the FEW that do not know the right way involving Soteriology who do not understand other basic doctrines such as God’s fair justice or judgment of the wicked? All I can do is encourage you the reader to study God’s Word for yourself. Do not take my word or the words of others here as truth. Search the Scriptures for yourself and you will find the truth and the truth will set you free.

I mean, take a step back a moment and really think about this. To hold to Eternal Torment is an attack upon the good character of God because that would be unfair justice. No believer has committed an infinite eternal amount of sins against God to warrant eternal torment. We never see God punishing a person waaaay beyond what the crime calls for in the Bible. Every sin was punished according to that sin.

God is into fair justice:

Luke 12:47-48 says,

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

“Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal 1; knowing that ye [you-all] also have a Master in heaven.” (Colossians 4:1).

1. equal: characterized by fairness (Source: 1913 Webster’s Dictionary).

“Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” (Romans 9:14).

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle once said,

“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

In fact, the whole reason why Jesus went to the cross was to pay the price for our sins. If God was not into fair justice, He simply would not have needed to send His Son to pay the price for our sin and He could have simply just forgiven us with no payment for sin. But the Lord our God is a God of fair justice. So the Son was sent to die for you, and me. How bitter, and yet sweet that truth is. For it truly shows how truly loving and good the Lord is to us.

Fervent · Aug 2, 2021

MMXX said:
I really don't get why you are singling me out, when I already made it clear that I'm not a UR apologist. There are others in this thread, and similar ones, who have done extensive Biblical research on this particular subject. I'm not one of them. In other words, you're barking up the wrong tree.

I don't mean to be singling you out, but you are a UR proponent are you not? I don't think I'm asking a lot, simply a passage where from the literary context the intent of the passage is to teach something approaching UR since you don't want to discuss Matthew 25:46.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
I don't mean to be singling you out, but you are a UR proponent are you not? I don't think I'm asking a lot, simply a passage where from the literary context the intent of the passage is to teach something approaching UR since you don't want to discuss Matthew 25:46.

No, I'm not a UR proponent. I've just listened to UR proponents enough to get a good (although not detailed) understanding of it. And have heard and read enough about it to be willing to consider it. In threads like this, I give my personal opinion based on what I have gathered about UR thus far.

As for Matthew 25:46, I already gave you my opinion on how I think it could be interpreted from a UR standpoint.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
As the Bible is against the doctrine you believe in.

I don't believe in the doctrine of universal redemption, I just think it's a possibility.

Lifelong_sinner · Aug 3, 2021

universalism is indeed a false doctrine.

Hmm · Aug 3, 2021

Fervent said:
Not at all, just an assessment of what appears to be motivated reasoning. The difference between "kolasis" and "timoria" is not in the desired end(corrective or not) but in the impetus. Timoria finds its motivation in the one inflicting the punishment, whereas kolasis is to meet a need of the punished. Which is why "kolasis" is more appropriate for divine judgment without the implication that it is necessarily corrective.

Your assessment of "kolasis" - I'm not sure why you've introduced a new word "timora" without saying why - differs considerably then from that of the scholars referred to in my last post. I don't think therefore that there's anything more to be gained from continuing this because I simply do not accept that your analysis is accurate.

Ceallaigh · Aug 3, 2021

Clare73 said:
I am totally convinced, and have no problem with it.
He's God, I'm not.

God is a grace-filled and endless forgiving Father to those who are his adopted sons through faith in Jesus Christ.
And you're right, he never becomes their adversary.

However, those who fail to believe in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of his only begotten Son for the remission of their sin and right standing with his justice; i.e., "not guilty," "record cleared," will be subject to his wrath (John 3:36; Romans 1:18, 2:5, 5:9; Ephesians 2:3, 5:6; Colossians 3:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:10, 1 Thessalonians 2:16).

You think because God is loving, he cannot execute justice.
You think love comes at the price of justice.
All God's attributes exist "side-by-side," none overriding or conflicting with another.
You bring God down to your size, your thinking and your ways. . .you make him too small.

Actually it's having a different opinion as to how God will execute His justice according to scripture. Not scripture as in isolated verses, but in the overall message of scripture.

And a universalist would say it's you who brings God down to your size, that in your thinking and your ways, you make him too small. They believe their view gives God more glory in having a much greater victory over sin and death.

Hmm · Aug 3, 2021

Clare73 said:
You think because God is loving, he cannot execute justice.
You think love comes at the price of justice.

Not at all. I think justice is as important as you do. I just don't think it can be achieved by an infinity of torment.

Clare73 said:
You bring God down to your size, your thinking and your ways. . .you make him too small

No, I've been looking with an open mind at what the current thinking is on this issue, which involves a reassessment of what the early church thought, and drawn my conclusions.

This issue has a tendency to go around in circles

Hmm · Aug 3, 2021

MMXX said:
And a universalist would say it's you who brings God down to your size, that in your inking and your ways, you make him too small. They believe their view gives God more glory in having a much greater victory over sin and death.

Agreed. AFAIK most Christian universalists believe that there is a "hell" where people are restored fully to God if that process is needed. They just don't believe that people are in hell for ever because God eventually achieves his desire that everyone is reconciled to him. To believe that God doesn't ultimately achieve his stated plan is indeed diminishing him.

Ceallaigh · Aug 3, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
To all:

Truth is not determined by popular evangelical Christianity. Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life, and FEW be there that finds it. How much more do those who are not of the FEW that do not know the right way involving Soteriology who do not understand other basic doctrines such as God’s fair justice or judgment of the wicked? All I can do is encourage you the reader to study God’s Word for yourself. Do not take my word or the words of others here as truth. Search the Scriptures for yourself and you will find the truth and the truth will set you free.

I mean, take a step back a moment and really think about this. To hold to Eternal Torment is an attack upon the good character of God because that would be unfair justice. No believer has committed an infinite eternal amount of sins against God to warrant eternal torment. We never see God punishing a person waaaay beyond what the crime calls for in the Bible. Every sin was punished according to that sin.

God is into fair justice:

Luke 12:47-48 says,

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

“Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal 1; knowing that ye [you-all] also have a Master in heaven.” (Colossians 4:1).

1. equal: characterized by fairness (Source: 1913 Webster’s Dictionary).

“Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” (Romans 9:14).

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle once said,

“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains,
no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

In fact, the whole reason why Jesus went to the cross was to pay the price for our sins. If God was not into fair justice, He simply would not have needed to send His Son to pay the price for our sin and He could have simply just forgiven us with no payment for sin. But the Lord our God is a God of fair justice. So the Son was sent to die for you, and me. How bitter, and yet sweet that truth is. For it truly shows how truly loving and good the Lord is to us.

I don't think Matthew 7:13-14 is about minority secondary Christian doctrines. Even though those who hold to minority doctrines attempt to apply it that way. I think Jesus was saying that the majority of mankind will take the broad road that leads away from believing in Him. And I think at the time He was mainly talking about the majority of Israel who would reject Him as their Messiah.
I think all Christians are on the narrow path, regardless of holding to majority or minority secondary doctrinal views. In my opinion, believing or not believing in eternal torment will not save or condemn you. Believing or not believing in annihilation will not save or condemn you. Believing or not believing in universal redemption will not save or condemn you. Believing or not believing in most secondary Christian doctrine and or theology will not save or condemn you.

Saint Steven · Aug 3, 2021

Fervent said:
N

Fair enough, though I'm interested in what the text says and where that leads. Matthew 25 is a direct teaching passage about what to expect in the afterlife that appears to support ECT. Is there a similar passage where it appears the intent of the passage is to teach about the afterlife that speaks of ur?

Have you seen this?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

Saint Steven · Aug 3, 2021

Fervent said:
... The only way to rescue the idea that "ainios" is not eternal with regard to punishment is to symmetrically deny that it is not eternal with regard to life. ...

I tend to agree with that. But would say it refers to the age (the age of ages) where all the reconciliation is happening. Fortunately, where life is concerned, one age gives way to another.

Hmm · Aug 3, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Have you seen this?

Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.

All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.

Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21

Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)

It is incredible how much damage has been caused by mistranslations from the original Greek that have been perpetuated over the centuries. And almost as incredible is the insistence of some to stick fast to these mistranslations despite all that biblical scholars and historical linguists say :scratch:

misput · Aug 3, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Jesus says to whom much is given, much is required. I believe if we have the truth available to us and we have time in this life to study God’s Word, we are going to be held responsible for the doctrines God wants us to know. Sure, we may not come to know them overnight, but I believe if we are truth seekers, we will come to know of that truth with the help of God. For Jesus condemned the traditions of men. I believe Eternal Torment, and Calvinism are two big popular Christian beliefs today that are attacks upon the very good character of our God as revealed in the Holy Bible. But it takes diligent study with the help of God to see such truth. For 2 Timothy 2:15 says in the King James Bible to study to shew yourself approved unto God. Why? Well, as Scripture says: God’s people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.

A lot of what you say is true, all I am saying is it's not a hill to die on.

Saint Steven · Aug 3, 2021

Fervent said:
... The Greek secular usage isn't the body of thought that the words derive their meaning from...

Did you really write that? (appears so)
Which came first, the language, or the religious writings?

The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

May God be with you and bless you.

Blood-bought

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

May God be with you and bless you.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

May God be with you and bless you.

May God be with you and bless you.

Well-Known Member

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

May God be with you and bless you.

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

May God be with you and bless you.

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

JimD

You can call me Steve

Similar threads