Purgatory

fide

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Maybe we are looking at holiness differently. Holiness is nothing other than living in the Divine Will (easy to say I know). Holiness is not lofty contemplations of God, it is not the crafting of thoughtful prayers. These may be the fruits of holiness and one may be inspired to accomplish such works. Holiness is not a self defined state where I can say that I am doing what I think one needs to do.

My point about sanctifying grace is that for any of our acts to be beneficial to our soul, we must be in a state of grace. Take for example this Dogma: For every salutary act, internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary. The Sacraments are conduits for this Sanctifying Grace. When talking about holiness, one cannot forget Sanctifying Grace.

In a way, we are looking at holiness differently. In another way, we are not. But I need to move on. May God be with you.
 
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fide

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And you even gave it own name? Imaginative place, what we call purgatory. I dont need such doctrine, i dont see it giving me any benefit even if it was true. And because its not specifically mentioned in bible i can confidently ignore it with good conscience. What does it benefit you to have such doctrine with such lackluster evidence. Can live little more loose, because purgatory will cleanse me of my idol worship?

A doctrine can be true even if you see no need for it. Teachings of His Church came about not because people took a poll and decided they wanted a teaching - Teachings of His Church came about because God revealed Truth to the Church, and the Church received and taught what God gave because God IS Truth. We all need ALL that God revealed, not merely all that some of us can find "specifically mentioned" in the Bible.

Jesus clearly taught His followers that MORE was on the way, MORE from God than they knew when they first began to preach and teach in His Name. The Holy Spirit was to come, and remain, and reveal more.
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

Joh 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Thus what some see in Scripture as "merely parables," the Church can understand more deeply as pointing to truths made clear in the light of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth - as promised by Jesus.
 
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bbbbbbb

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A doctrine can be true even if you see no need for it. Teachings of His Church came about not because people took a poll and decided they wanted a teaching - Teachings of His Church came about because God revealed Truth to the Church, and the Church received and taught what God gave because God IS Truth. We all need ALL that God revealed, not merely all that some of us can find "specifically mentioned" in the Bible.

Jesus clearly taught His followers that MORE was on the way, MORE from God than they knew when they first began to preach and teach in His Name. The Holy Spirit was to come, and remain, and reveal more.
Joh 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

Joh 14:25 "These things I have spoken to you, while I am still with you.
Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.

Thus what some see in Scripture as "merely parables," the Church can understand more deeply as pointing to truths made clear in the light of the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of Truth - as promised by Jesus.

Interestingly my Muslim friends quote the same verses in reference to Mohammed - the promised prophet sent by Allah according to the word of Jesus. My Muslim friends are completely convinced that Mohammed is Allah's last and greatest prophet. Do you believe they are correct in their assertion and, if so, why?
 
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fide

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Interestingly my Muslim friends quote the same verses in reference to Mohammed - the promised prophet sent by Allah according to the word of Jesus. My Muslim friends are completely convinced that Mohammed is Allah's last and greatest prophet. Do you believe they are correct in their assertion and, if so, why?

Counterfeits of the Authentic always look somewhat like the real thing - otherwise the counterfeit would fail immediately as a fraud. Satan is more clever than that. If a seeker's heart is righteous, hungers for Truth, despises the false, he will seek and God's hand on that man will lead him to Truth. He will find. He will come to know. He will live.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Counterfeits of the Authentic always look somewhat like the real thing - otherwise the counterfeit would fail immediately as a fraud. Satan is more clever than that. If a seeker's heart is righteous, hungers for Truth, despises the false, he will seek and God's hand on that man will lead him to Truth. He will find. He will come to know. He will live.

Interestingly, that is pretty much what my Sunni Muslim friends tell me.
 
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fide

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Interestingly, that is pretty much what my Sunni Muslim friends tell me.
Interestingly, that is pretty much what my Sunni Muslim friends tell me.

I hope you believe that there is such a thing as truth, and that truth is radically other than falsity, and that truth is the foundation of life, and falsity is the foundation of death, and that you - personally - were created for truth and for life.

If you have the grace to believe this, in the core of your being, then you face the greatest challenge of your time on this earth: to distinguish, to discern, that which is the authentic and that which is the counterfeit. There is no place for compromise between the two, nor can there be peaceful co-existence. One will remain - forever - the other will crumble under the weight of its own internal contradictions.

This battle of earthly life is real. It is not a video game, nor a fictional TV show that we can flip off and go to bed when we please, and watch something different tomorrow. This battle is so important that God Himself had to intervene, lest evil destroy everything and everyone. And He will win.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I hope you believe that there is such a thing as truth, and that truth is radically other than falsity, and that truth is the foundation of life, and falsity is the foundation of death, and that you - personally - were created for truth and for life.

If you have the grace to believe this, in the core of your being, then you face the greatest challenge of your time on this earth: to distinguish, to discern, that which is the authentic and that which is the counterfeit. There is no place for compromise between the two, nor can there be peaceful co-existence. One will remain - forever - the other will crumble under the weight of its own internal contradictions.

This battle of earthly life is real. It is not a video game, nor a fictional TV show that we can flip off and go to bed when we please, and watch something different tomorrow. This battle is so important that God Himself had to intervene, lest evil destroy everything and everyone. And He will win.

So say my Muslim friends, as well.
 
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Ngodap

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Major1

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Obviously, I pay no heed to their claims. However, I find it curious that they seem to live in a parallel universe.

And that could be due to that fact that they all have rejected the written Word of God.
 
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Major1

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If I may be blunt, you need to listen for - and to - God. Your friends cannot say what only God can say to you.

God has said all He wanted to say in the Word of God as it was written.
 
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Major1

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Then why did you post a quotation from Augustine? As to purgatory, as I said it is simply a word for the purification before Heaven spoken of in the Bible. Catholics believe the Bible is the Word of God.

See post #224!
 
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Major1

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We Don't even Need 2 Maccabees when we have the implication spelled out in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15:

11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

LOL!!!!
The Catholic church, in its struggle to find anything in the Bible to support its Purgatory teaching has reached down to the lowest possible place.......deception.

When ANYONE reads 1 Corinthians 3, it is clearly seen that The context speaks of Paul having planted the Corinthian church, and that another person was building upon that work: verse 6 says, “I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth.” Paul goes on to say that unless a person builds upon the foundation of Jesus, his work will be burned up the in the day of judgment (v. 13). See also, 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Cor. 1:14; 1 Thess. 5:2).

Paul is simply using the terms that are familiar to the people of the time. The fire was the tool used to purify metals and to get rid of that which was unwanted–the dross. So, too, on the day when our works are examined, the fire of judgment will both purify and remove. This will not affect our salvation, but it will affect our rewards. The theme of fire used as purification is also found in 2 Pet. 3:10-13. But this is not talking about becoming saved or staying saved.

1 Cor. 3:15 does not teach purgatory as a place we go to in order to have some of our sins cleansed from us. It teaches that even though the person is justified by faith and cannot face damnation, his works will, however, be judged on “that day.” Those works which are good will survive the fires of judgment the way gold, silver, and precious stones can survive fire. But false works will be consumed the way fire consumes wood, hay, and straw. What is left has no bearing on whether or not we are saved. It has to do with rewards in heaven.

STUDY to shoe thy self approved of God, a workman!
 
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Major1

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You should not accuse others of deception. People have views that differ from your own.

OK. Now then. What word would you suggest being used when anyone takes a Scripture and makes it say something that it in no way says.

It would be like seeing a picture of a Big Mac, and ordering a Big Mac at McDonalds and getting a chicken sandwich and calling it a hamburger.
 
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Swag365

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OK. Now then. What word would you suggest being used when anyone takes a Scripture and makes it say something that it in no way says.

It would be like seeing a picture of a Big Mac, and ordering a Big Mac at McDonalds and getting a chicken sandwich and calling it a hamburger.
You mean like how the Bible states "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" but Protestants twist Scripture to make this mean "a man is justified by faith only, and not works", literally the exact opposite of what the word of God clearly states?

That must certainly be "deception" according to your standard, no?
 
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Albion

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You mean like how the Bible states "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only" but Protestants twist Scripture to make this mean "a man is justified by faith only, and not works", literally the exact opposite of what the word of God clearly states?
Is your point, then, that both Catholics and Protestants twist Scripture to their own advantage?
 
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