The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
Fair enough, though I'm interested in what the text says and where that leads. Matthew 25 is a direct teaching passage about what to expect in the afterlife that appears to support ECT. Is there a similar passage where it appears the intent of the passage is to teach about the afterlife that speaks of ur?

I just know that what one reads in English with a modern mindset, might be read differently by someone who's fluent in Koine Greek and is knowledgeable about mindsets that existed when the books of the Bible were written.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

There's also a matter of literary style. I have a hard time understanding Shakespeare for instance, because of the literary style of the time. Something even older like Beowulf, is even harder for me to understand.

Fervent · Aug 2, 2021

Hmm said:
Except it doesn't.

Matthew 25:46:
καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

Typically translated as in the RSV:
And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

The key word here is aiónion, an adjectival form of the noun aión—age, eon, era, epoch. While aión can signify endless duration, particularly when referring to divinity, it typically refers to a long or indefinite period of time.

Yet most English translations render aiónion as “eternal” and so avoiding the nuances of the word and leading to the dogmatic view that you are claiming is true.

We should also consider how it lines up with Jesus' other teachings. Does it make sense that Jesus teaches that God will suddenly not forgive us anymore after death, when he teaches us to forgive others seven times seventy, IOW an infinite amount, of times?

The issue here is the propriety of "aionion" as eternal, and as any translator worth their salt would tell you context is king in translation. The fate of this group is paralleled with those who went to paradise, so it is only natural if one us eternal that the most natural read for a word that also typically bears the meaning eternal to be a direct parallel and so equally eternal

Fervent · Aug 2, 2021

MMXX said:
I just know that what one reads in English with a modern mindset, might be read differently by someone who's fluent in Koine Greek and is knowledgeable about mindsets that existed when the books of the Bible were written.

So you'll appeal to an argument but not forward it?

Hmm · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
The issue here is the propriety of "aionion" as eternal, and as any translator worth their salt would tell you context is king in translation. The fate of this group is paralleled with those who went to paradise, so it is only natural if one us eternal that the most natural read for a word that also typically bears the meaning eternal to be a direct parallel and so equally eternal

Yes, context is king. If Jesus meant to say in Matthew 25:46 that the punishment in hell is eternal, he could have used the word "aidios". But he didn't, he said "aionios".

This doesn't mean that he's saying that paradise isn't eternal. He's comparing punishment in Hell and eternal life in Heaven, but if Heaven is eternal and Hell isn't, how is he to imply that? Using aionios solves the problem. Aionios can be used of eternal things but doesn't have to pertain to the eternal. If Jesus wanted to say that the punishment of the unrighteous will last a long time, he would have said that it is "aionios". When talking about eternal life as the alternative, he still uses the word aionios to make the comparison knowing that the hearer/reader will know that he is not saying there is no eternal life because of everything else he has said about it.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
The issue here is the propriety of "aionion" as eternal, and as any translator worth their salt would tell you context is king in translation. The fate of this group is paralleled with those who went to paradise, so it is only natural if one us eternal that the most natural read for a word that also typically bears the meaning eternal to be a direct parallel and so equally eternal

Scholars and theologians worth their salt have determined it's not as two dimensional or black and white as that. Like I said, if one goes with the thousand year reign of Christ theory, then it would be referring to that period of time for both parties. I think the Bible only gives us a glimpse of what's to come in God's unfolding plan. That's why I don't think I know exactly how things are going to play out in the long run.

Ceallaigh · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
So you'll appeal to an argument but not forward it?

I don't know what you mean. If you want me to do something spacific for you, you'll need to be more clear.

Here's basically what I first heard regarding the whole thing, explained by the person giving the lecture in the video posted below, at a home Bible study in Henderson, Nevada back in 2008.

And also from visits I made to Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10

And from videos of Brad Jersak and David Bentley Heart on the subject of hell.

If you check out those sources, then you'll know what I know regarding the subject.

Fervent · Aug 2, 2021

Hmm said:
Yes, context is king. If Jesus meant to say in Matthew 25:46 that the punishment in hell is eternal, he could have used the word "aidios". But he didn't, he said "aionios".

This doesn't mean that he's saying that paradise isn't eternal. He's comparing punishment in Hell and eternal life in Heaven, but if Heaven is eternal and Hell isn't, how is he to imply that? Using aionios solves the problem. Aionios can be used of eternal things but doesn't have to pertain to the eternal. If Jesus wanted to say that the punishment of the unrighteous will last a long time, he would have said that it is "aionios". When talking about eternal life as the alternative, he still uses the word aionios to make the comparison knowing that the hearer/reader will know that he is not saying there is no eternal life because of everything else he has said about it.

No, ainios serves perfectly well to mean eternal and most of the arguments against it rely on the base form of aion rather than the form present. Ainios, when constructed in the manner it is constructed, can be indefinite in length simply being a long time but that's a contextual question(as words only have meaning in context). The symmetry between "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" implies that each are the same, now MMXX points to the possibility that both are simply during the millenial reign but that involves deeper questions than the grammatical issue. The only way to rescue the idea that "ainios" is not eternal with regard to punishment is to symmetrically deny that it is not eternal with regard to life. As Jesus' purpose in the passage appears to be to teach about final destinies(and not intermediate destinies) the most natural read is "eternal." As soon as my accordance software is back online I'll pull up the lexicons to show more detail on why there is no need to go with "aidios" since "ainios" carries the ordinary meaning of eternal, especially in Biblical usage.

Fervent · Aug 2, 2021

MMXX said:
I don't know what you mean. If you want me to do something spacific for you, you'll need to be more clear.

Here's basically what I first heard regarding the whole thing, explained by the person giving the lecture in the video posted below, at a home Bible study in Henderson, Nevada back in 2008.

And also from visits I made to Tentmaker – Jesus Christ, the savior of all men, especially those who believe. I Tim. 4:10

And from videos of Brad Jersak and David Bentley Heart on the subject of hell.

If you check out those sources, then you'll know what I know regarding the subject.

You keep referring to scholars and theologians arguments without specifying what they are. I'm trying to keep the discussion limited because opening the scope too much is doubtful whether it will be fruitful. So the question is Matthew 25:46, or if you want to forward a passage that you believe accomplishes a similar thing for UR we can discuss that. So is there a passage anywhere in the Bible where the intent of the passage appears to be to teach UR, at least tangentially?

Clare73 · Aug 2, 2021

MMXX said:
Are you sure about that?

Absolutely positive. . .

It would help your above claim if you didn't type things that sound haughty.

Then don't present a clearly obvious misrepresentation of the meaning of a text, and I won't sound haughty in my objection to the offense.
Not to mention, what is haughty to one man is God's truth to another, as in Romans 9:20:

"Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?"

Jesus' answer to those in the parable who charged the landowner (God) with injustice/unfairness
in Matthew 20:1-14,

is the same as Paul's answer to the one charging God with injustice/unfairness in Romans 9:19; i.e.,

to assert the authority of God (Matthew 20:15; Romans 9:20-21).

I give the same "haughty" answer to those who question the justice of God as do Jesus and Paul.

You got better models?

Clare73 · Aug 2, 2021

Hmm said:
I agree there has to be justice but that was achieved on the cross where Jesus paid the price of our sins.

Failure to believe in and trust on the atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," "record cleared," is an automatic, legal and permanent quitclaim to that satisfaction of justice.

In any case, don't you think an eternity of torment is a tad over the top and not at all just?

So you judge God?

In my neck o' the woods, God judges us, we don't judge him.
"That's turning things upside as if the potter were thought to be like the clay." (Isaiah 29:16).

You don't get it. . .the potter (God) is not like you (the clay). . .not on the same level as you. . .not answerable to you. . .his thoughts are not your thoughts. . .and your ways are certainly not his ways (Isaiah 55:8).

Get over yourself.

Hmm · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
No, ainios serves perfectly well to mean eternal and most of the arguments against it rely on the base form of aion rather than the form present. Ainios, when constructed in the manner it is constructed, can be indefinite in length simply being a long time but that's a contextual question(as words only have meaning in context). The symmetry between "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" implies that each are the same, now MMXX points to the possibility that both are simply during the millenial reign but that involves deeper questions than the grammatical issue. The only way to rescue the idea that "ainios" is not eternal with regard to punishment is to symmetrically deny that it is not eternal with regard to life. As Jesus' purpose in the passage appears to be to teach about final destinies(and not intermediate destinies) the most natural read is "eternal." As soon as my accordance software is back online I'll pull up the lexicons to show more detail on why there is no need to go with "aidios" since "ainios" carries the ordinary meaning of eternal, especially in Biblical usage.

I don't think there's any point arguing eternally (aidios) over the meaning of "aionios", whether it should be translated in Matthew 25:46 as “eternal,” “everlasting,” or simply “age enduring”. Let's agree for the sake of argument that you're right and it means "eternal" here. The trouble is you then run into trouble with the meaning of the word "punishment" (kolasis). For as NT William Barclay notes “kolasis” originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. He also claimed that “in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment”.
So, if hell is all about torment it makes sense to use the adjective "eternal. But if it is about corrective punishment as is the meaning of kolasis", it doesn't make sense. Corrective punishment can hardly be an eternal process that never gets completed. It must have a limited duration that ends in a corrected state. So your argument that “aionios” must have exactly the same meaning of eternal when applied to corrective punishment as when it qualifies heaven is a false one.

Hmm · Aug 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
Where is that found in Scripture that I might examine it?

Good timing. See my post immediately above where it talks about corrective punishment (kolasis)

Clare73 · Aug 2, 2021

Hmm said:
I don't think there's any point arguing eternally (aidios) over the meaning of "aionios", whether it should be translated in Matthew 25:46 as “eternal,” “everlasting,” or simply “age enduring”.

Let's agree for the sake of argument that you're right and it means "eternal" here. The trouble is you then run into trouble with the meaning of the word "punishment" (kolasis). For as NT William Barclay notes “kolasis” originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. He also claimed that “in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment”.

So let's talk about kolasis.
First of all, it is used twice in the NT, and it means to curtail, prune, dock.

In 1 John 4:18, "Fear has punishment (torment--kolasis) [fear is punishing--kolasis] and he who fears is not perfect in love."
The punishment there is that sense of sin which induces a slavish fear, which
is a docking, curtailing, pruning of perfect love
Fear docks, curtails, restrains (punishes) the enjoyment of love.

In Matthew 25:46, "eternal punishment" would be an unending restraining/curtailing imprisonment
(as in 1 Peter 3:19, 2 Peter 2:4, 2 Peter 2:9; Jude 6), and in agreement with the multitude of Scriptures where Jesus presents unending punishment in Gehenna (Mark 9:43, 45, 47-48;
Matthew 5:22, 12:31, 13:30, 18:8-9, 25:41, 46; Luke 16:24).

Corrective punishment can hardly be an eternal process that never gets completed. It must have a limited duration that ends in a corrected state. So your argument that “aionios” must have exactly the same meaning of eternal when applied to corrective punishment as when it qualifies heaven is a false one.

Fervent · Aug 2, 2021

Hmm said:
I don't think there's any point arguing eternally (aidios) over the meaning of "aionios", whether it should be translated in Matthew 25:46 as “eternal,” “everlasting,” or simply “age enduring”. Let's agree for the sake of argument that you're right and it means "eternal" here. The trouble is you then run into trouble with the meaning of the word "punishment" (kolasis). For as NT William Barclay notes “kolasis” originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. He also claimed that “in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used of anything but remedial punishment”.
So, if hell is all about torment it makes sense to use the adjective "eternal. But if it is about corrective punishment as is the meaning of kolasis", it doesn't make sense. Corrective punishment can hardly be an eternal process that never gets completed. It must have a limited duration that ends in a corrected state. So your argument that “aionios” must have exactly the same meaning of eternal when applied to corrective punishment as when it qualifies heaven is a false one.

This reads like vying for a foothold rather than seeking the best grammatical meaning. Again, "kolasis" is an acceptable word for punishment and the scholar you're noting is pulling from the wrong strata. The Greek secular usage isn't the body of thought that the words derive their meaning from, and in hellenistic and other non-secular literature "kolasis" routinely means divine retribution, being used to speak of God judging earthly rulers in 2 Maccabees and even being linked with torture in 4 Maccabees.

Hmm · Aug 2, 2021

Fervent said:
This reads like vying for a foothold rather than seeking the best grammatical meaning.

This reads like condescension.

Hmm · Aug 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
The issue is: do we believe Jesus or not. . .we know what he said.

We will know what he said only we are open to learning new things. No one really believes what doesn't make sense to them and I doubt ECT is really convincing to anyone. God doesn't change from a loving, grace filled and endless forgiving Father while we are alive into an eternal tormenter at the moment of our death.

Gregory Thompson · Aug 2, 2021

Dropping a book of rules out of the sky and watching what happens, sounds like something from the screwtape letters. I know it's the bible, but still -

Clare73 · Aug 2, 2021

Hmm said:
Good timing. See my post immediately above where it talks about corrective punishment (kolasis)

Where do I find there the eon thing you refer to below?

I believe that the Bible says that there has to be a turning to God, a repentence, before we can be with him after death and that this process may very will take an aion/eon.

Gregory Thompson · Aug 2, 2021

Clare73 said:
Where do I find there the eon thing?

G166 - aiōnios - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv) ?

The Bible: God's plan for the redemption of humankind? Or... ???

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