A desire for Eden rather than Heaven

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

I often grow weary of where I am, and have a yearning to be somewhere else.

A pastor might say "that yearning is for heaven"
But I know it's not.
Streets of gold, crowns, thrones, gates made of jewels and pearls and precious stones, angels... God in fellowship with individuals, and our purpose is to sing to Him.
none of that does anything for me.
None of that sounds fulfilling at all.
What I yearn for is Eden, God in fellowship with 2 lovers, in physical bodies, in a paradise of natural beauty with animals, and their purpose was to tend to and care for God's creation.
But Eden is lost forever, and it's replacement is heaven, and eventually a new earth that is.. a city, with its streets of gold and jewels and blah blah blah symbols of wealth blah blah blah.
It just.. that's the feeling I get for it all.
Blah.
Why does Eden sound more perfect to me than Heaven or the New Jerusalem?
and why do I want it so badly when it's gone for good and God has replaced that original plan?

Note that in both it involves fellowship with God so before people jump to heaven is better because you have God..
God walked with Adam and Eve in Eden too.

Sabertooth · Aug 2, 2021

I believe Eden was only temporary, too. That everybody would eventually walk or ride into Heaven* without dying. Perhaps even traveling back & forth as the angels do.

But (at least, until the new Earth), this one remains a crucible, at best.

*Like Enoch & Elijah.

TheWhat? · Aug 2, 2021

I'm not sure that I'm following you. This is ancient wisdom literature, intentionally opaque, not intended for fanciful imaginations.

The tree of life is in Eden and in the new Jerusalem. I would not suppose it was transported. And the people were cast out because they were naughty, not because Eden is naughty -- as God's creation it is a reflection of God, and without corruption. The problem we tend to have with the associated imagery is due to the corruption that would be absent there. Now whether or not it will be changed and made more suitable for us corrupt humans with corrupt imaginations is debatable, but if you can imagine life as it is, but without the corruption due to sin, you can somewhat imagine a life without dissatisfaction, death, and all the negative things we have to put up with, and that to me at least, seems to be alluded to by "streets of gold," rather than worthless material wealth.

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

TheWhat? said:
I'm not sure that I'm following you. This is ancient wisdom literature, intentionally opaque, not intended for fanciful imaginations.

The tree of life is in Eden and in the new Jerusalem. I would not suppose it was transported. And the people were cast out because they were naughty, not because Eden is naughty -- as God's creation it is a reflection of God, and without corruption. The problem we tend to have with the associated imagery is due to the corruption that would be absent there. Now whether or not it will be changed and made more suitable for us corrupt humans with corrupt imaginations is debatable, but if you can imagine life as it is, but without the corruption due to sin, you can somewhat imagine a life without dissatisfaction, death, and all the negative things we have to put up with, and that to me at least, seems to be alluded to by "streets of gold," rather than worthless material wealth.

The bible doesn't just describe a return to Eden like state, without sin and death though, sure it describes a lack of death or pain or illness and sin.. but it describes entirely different lifestyle and family unit.. namely, there is no family unit based on a man and wife anymore.
It's more just a congregation, you can say brothers and sisters.
but it's no longer man + woman + God but man + God, and woman + God, separately.
and the purpose has changed, instead of the job being having dominion on the Earth the job is worship, basically doing what Angels do now, lots of singing. That's the main thing the bible describes. For the saints in heaven the Book of Revelation is practically a musical.
You might call it a Narrowway Musical.
and the description of the city is too detailed for it to just be some symbol, but. rather that that city is what our actual home will be.
It might be Donald Trump's wildest fantasy to be surrounded in gold and jewels.. but it's nothing for me.

TheWhat? · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
The bible doesn't just describe a return to Eden like state, without sin and death though, sure it describes a lack of death or pain or illness and sin.. but it describes entirely different lifestyle and family unit.. namely, there is no family unit based on a man and wife anymore.
It's more just a congregation, you can say brothers and sisters.
but it's no longer man + woman + God but man + God, and woman + God, separately.
and the purpose has changed, instead of the job being having dominion on the Earth the job is worship, basically doing what Angels do now, lots of singing. That's the main thing the bible describes. For the saints in heaven the Book of Revelation is practically a musical.
You might call it a Narrowway Musical.
and the description of the city is too detailed for it to just be some symbol, but. rather that that city is what our actual home will be.
It might be Donald Trump's wildest fantasy to be surrounded in gold and jewels.. but it's nothing for me.

Yeah, I get that there is this tendency to neuter heaven, a problem more prominent for Westerners under different philosophical presuppositions than for more ancient Semites. Again, whether it will be changed to be more suitable for us corrupt humans with corrupt imaginations is debatable, but I'm not convinced that will be the case. Paul was caught up to paradise -- either heaven did not exist yet, they are the same, or it was changed -- it is not revealed in the text, but regardless it contains the same tree of life so that is a clue.

Sabertooth · Aug 2, 2021

@Jamdoc, I believe that you are underestimating Heaven again.
Until we see Jesus [1 John 3:2], that is all we can do...

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

TheWhat? said:
Yeah, I get that there is this tendency to neuter heaven, a problem more prominent for Westerners under different philosophical presuppositions than for more ancient Semites. Again, whether it will be changed to be more suitable for us corrupt humans with corrupt imaginations is debatable, but I'm not convinced that will be the case. Paul was caught up to paradise -- either heaven did not exist yet, they are the same, or it was changed -- it is not revealed in the text, but regardless it contains the same tree of life so that is a clue.

Paul said he was caught up to the third heaven.
in the later chapters of Ezekiel, and Revelation, it describes multiple trees of life. So it's not just 1 singular tree of life that is the same. But rather multiple are in the New Jerusalem in heaven now, and 1 was in Eden at the beginning, but it's no longer there. It was certainly removed that was the reason for the expulsion from Eden to prevent Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life and living forever in their sin.
and I wouldn't say it's "corrupt" imagination to imagine and desire what God originally created for us before sin.
God didn't create it corrupt so why would it be corrupt to desire it the way God originally created it?
God said it was very good.

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

Sabertooth said:
@Jamdoc, I believe that you are underestimating Heaven again.
Until we see Jesus [1 John 3:2], that is all we can do...

I'm going by what the bible says about it.

Sabertooth · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I'm going by what the bible says about it.

You going by glimpses that the Bible hints at.

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

1 Corinthians 2:9 NKJV

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

Sabertooth said:
You going by glimpses that the Bible hints at.

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”

1 Corinthians 2:9 NKJV

It was a detailed description not really hinted at but laid out in front of you, its dimensions, what it's made of, things it contains, things it doesn't contain. That's more than a hint.

Sabertooth · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
It was a detailed description not really hinted at but laid out in front of you, its dimensions, what it's made of, things it contains, things it doesn't contain. That's more than a hint.

You must know that insisting on that view is at odds with 1 John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 2:9 & 1 Corinthians 13:12...

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

Sabertooth said:
You must know that insisting on that view is at odds with 1 John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 2:9 & 1 Corinthians 13:12...

John didn't see everything, but he did see the New Jerusalem.
sure, there's more to the new earth than the New Jerusalem, but that is what we've been revealed, is the New Jerusalem.
Some people get excited about that. In fact, a lot of people get excited for it.
I don't.
and I feel estranged and different from other people because of it.

Butch5 · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I often grow weary of where I am, and have a yearning to be somewhere else.

A pastor might say "that yearning is for heaven"
But I know it's not.
Streets of gold, crowns, thrones, gates made of jewels and pearls and precious stones, angels... God in fellowship with individuals, and our purpose is to sing to Him.
none of that does anything for me.
None of that sounds fulfilling at all.
What I yearn for is Eden, God in fellowship with 2 lovers, in physical bodies, in a paradise of natural beauty with animals, and their purpose was to tend to and care for God's creation.
But Eden is lost forever, and it's replacement is heaven, and eventually a new earth that is.. a city, with its streets of gold and jewels and blah blah blah symbols of wealth blah blah blah.
It just.. that's the feeling I get for it all.
Blah.
Why does Eden sound more perfect to me than Heaven or the New Jerusalem?
and why do I want it so badly when it's gone for good and God has replaced that original plan?
Note that in both it involves fellowship with God so before people jump to heaven is better because you have God..
God walked with Adam and Eve in Eden too.

No worries my friend. The original plan hasn't changed. No one has thwarted God's plan. Eden will be restored when the creation is restored. That is our hope. It's not Heaven. There isn't a single passage of Scripture in the Bible that says people go to Heaven when they die. That idea entered into Christianity through Greek philosophy. It was a teaching of Plato. The Greeks believed that the flesh was inherently wicked and as such the goal was for the "immortal soul" to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. The Bible teaches no such thing. Believers will be resurrected to stand once again on the earth in the restored creation. It's all over the Scriptures.

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

Butch5 said:
No worries my friend. The original plan hasn't changed. No one has thwarted God's plan. Eden will be restored when the creation is restored. That is our hope. It's not Heaven. There isn't a single passage of Scripture in the Bible that says people go to Heaven when they die. That idea entered into Christianity through Greek philosophy. It was a teaching of Plato. The Greeks believed that the flesh was inherently wicked and as such the goal was for the "immortal soul" to escape the body and ascend into the heavens. The Bible teaches no such thing. Believers will be resurrected to stand once again on the earth in the restored creation. It's all over the Scriptures.

but the scriptures do focus on the New Jerusalem for it's glimpse into eternity for us., and that picture of 2 lovers in fellowship with God, that's gone in eternity.
So what Eden was is still lost.

Butch5 · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
but the scriptures do focus on the New Jerusalem for it's glimpse into eternity for us., and that picture of 2 lovers in fellowship with God, that's gone in eternity.
So what Eden was is still lost.

The New Jerusalem is the current city restored. When you say the picture of two lovers in fellowship with God is gone, I'm not sure what you mean.

bling · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I often grow weary of where I am, and have a yearning to be somewhere else.

A pastor might say "that yearning is for heaven"
But I know it's not.
Streets of gold, crowns, thrones, gates made of jewels and pearls and precious stones, angels... God in fellowship with individuals, and our purpose is to sing to Him.
none of that does anything for me.
None of that sounds fulfilling at all.
What I yearn for is Eden, God in fellowship with 2 lovers, in physical bodies, in a paradise of natural beauty with animals, and their purpose was to tend to and care for God's creation.
But Eden is lost forever, and it's replacement is heaven, and eventually a new earth that is.. a city, with its streets of gold and jewels and blah blah blah symbols of wealth blah blah blah.
It just.. that's the feeling I get for it all.
Blah.
Why does Eden sound more perfect to me than Heaven or the New Jerusalem?
and why do I want it so badly when it's gone for good and God has replaced that original plan?

Note that in both it involves fellowship with God so before people jump to heaven is better because you have God..
God walked with Adam and Eve in Eden too.

One of the very important things we (and Adam & Eve) learn from the Garden scenario is the fact: the Garden is a lousy place (impossible place) for humans to fulfill their earthly objective. We can thank Adam and Eve for going through that learning experience for us. People might think it was an “ideal” situation, when they ask: “How could a Loving God allow _____ to happen?” We think we want to be in a place where there is: no pain, no hurting people, no sorrow, no limited resources, God with us face to face daily, and no death.

This messed up world is the vey best situation for will individuals to fulfill their earthly objective, but it is not a place of rest. What do you as a Christian really like to do here on earth, since that is what I see us doing in heaven?

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

Butch5 said:
The New Jerusalem is the current city restored. When you say the picture of two lovers in fellowship with God is gone, I'm not sure what you mean.

That was Eden, 2 lovers (Adam and Eve) in fellowship with Lord God, who walked with them in the cool of the evening in the Garden.
Eternity there's no evening, and there's no lovers.

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

bling said:
One of the very important things we (and Adam & Eve) learn from the Garden scenario is the fact: the Garden is a lousy place (impossible place) for humans to fulfill their earthly objective. We can thank Adam and Eve for going through that learning experience for us. People might think it was an “ideal” situation, when they ask: “How could a Loving God allow _____ to happen?” We think we want to be in a place where there is: no pain, no hurting people, no sorrow, no limited resources, God with us face to face daily, and no death.

This messed up world is the vey best situation for will individuals to fulfill their earthly objective, but it is not a place of rest. What do you as a Christian really like to do here on earth, since that is what I see us doing in heaven?

How was Eden a lousy place? It was a place God created specifically for man, God said it was very good.
the earthly objective before the fall was for Adam and Eve to tend to the garden, have dominion over it, and to be fruitful and multiply.
They literally had 1 thing that was not allowed (which they end of doing of course), because they had no understanding of evil so they wouldn't think to be cruel, or steal from each other, or commit adultery (if that were even possible) or murder.

I don't see how it's lousy at all, except that they had that one temptation there.(which of course, was there because God knew it'd result in the fall and eventual redemption)
Eternity for us will have far more rules.

Butch5 · Aug 2, 2021

Jamdoc said:
That was Eden, 2 lovers (Adam and Eve) in fellowship with Lord God, who walked with them in the cool of the evening in the Garden.
Eternity there's no evening, and there's no lovers.

There will be evenings. As for Adam and Eve walking with God. That wasn't lost for anyone but Adam and Eve. No one else had the opportunity to walk with God as just two humans.

Jamdoc · Aug 2, 2021

Butch5 said:
There will be evenings. As for Adam and Eve walking with God. That wasn't lost for anyone but Adam and Eve. No one else had the opportunity to walk with God as just two humans.

There's no night (Revelation 22:5)
and I find that second part sad.

A desire for Eden rather than Heaven

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