God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

Biblewriter said:

I dealt with it by pointing out that it most absolutely DOES NOT say what you are claiming it says. Over and out

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Biblical assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

Non-responsive to Hebrews 11:13-16, "They did not receive the things promised."

"Therefore," God would have been "ashamed to be called their God (his promise of the Abrahamic covenant--Genesis 17:7)" had he not "prepared an eternal city for them;"
i.e., the promises were fulfilled spiritually.

You got it WRONG. Prophechy is not always LITERAL.

Clare73 said:

Biblical assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

Non-responsive to Hebrews 11:13-16, "They did not receive the things promised."

"Therefore," God would have been "ashamed to be called their God (his promise of the Abrahamic covenant--Genesis 17:7)" had he not "prepared an eternal city for them;"
i.e., the promises were fulfilled spiritually.

You got it WRONG. Prophechy is not always LITERAL.

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And in verse 13 says that they died in Faith is a ACCUSATIVE CASE but it says they saw them a far off and were PERSAUDED of them .

That eternal city is the new Jerusalem as seen in Rev 21:2 , and looks real to me .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And in verse 13 says that they died in Faith is a ACCUSATIVE CASE but it says they saw them a far off and were PERSAUDED of them .

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"seeing and greeting and confessing. . ."

That eternal city is the new Jerusalem as seen in Rev 21:2 , and looks real to me .

dan p

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How does this verse apply to God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel?


Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

Dan Perez said:

And in verse 13 says that they died in Faith is a ACCUSATIVE CASE but it says they saw them a far off and were PERSAUDED of them .

That eternal city is the new Jerusalem as seen in Rev 21:2 , and looks real to me .

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LITERAL does not mean REAL.

LITERAL means to take words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham (Genesis 17:8).
Abraham never received a foot of ground there (Acts 7:5).
He did not receive the things promised--Canaan (Hebrews 11:13).
God fulfilled his promise to Abraham spiritually, not literally, in the eternal city/land--New Jerusalem (Hebrews 11:16).

The promise to Abraham was not a literal promise, it was an allegorical promise.
Both are "real," the difference is only in the form of their expression.

Clare73 said:

LITERAL does not mean REAL.

LITERAL means to take words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham (Genesis 17:8).
Abraham never received a foot of ground there (Acts 7:5).
He did not receive the things promised--Canaan (Hebrews 11:13).
God fulfilled his promise to Abraham spiritually, not literally, in the eternal city/land--New Jerusalem (Hebrews 11:16).

The promise to Abraham was not a literal promise, ir was an allegorical promise.
Both are "real."

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This is true and in fact, Abraham was in the Promised Land as a stranger because Abraham knew that the literal Promised Land was not of this earth, he was looking for Heavenly Jerusalem.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Clare73 said:

LITERAL does not mean REAL.

LITERAL means to take words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.

God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham (Genesis 17:8).
Abraham never received a foot of ground there (Acts 7:5).
He did not receive the things promised--Canaan (Hebrews 11:13).
God fulfilled his promise to Abraham spiritually, not literally, in the eternal city/land--New Jerusalem (Hebrews 11:16).

The promise to Abraham was not a literal promise, ir was an allegorical promise.
Both are "real."

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And there is only one verse where the word ALLEGORY is used , and it is in Gal 4:24 .

ALLOGORICAL meaning does not do away with the LITERALmeaning of the narrative .

There are manyyyyyyyyyy figures of speech in the bible and one writer , BULLINGER has written 3 books on this subject .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And there is only one verse where the word ALLEGORY is used , and it is in Gal 4:24 .

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Okay. . .and there are no verses where SOVEREIGNTY or TRINITY is used in the Greek.

Your point?

ALLOGORICAL meaning does not do away with the LITERALmeaning of the narrative .

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Hebrews 11:13-16 disagrees with you.

The promise of Canaan to Abraham was not literally fulfilled, he did not possess a foot of ground there.

Either the proimise was allegorical, or God was a liar about the promise taken literally.
Hebrews 11:13-16 deals with that very issue (allegorical/literal) and that very charge (God breaking his covenant word).

Clare73 said:

Okay. . .and there are no verses where SOVEREIGNTY or TRINITY is used in the Greek.

Your point?
Hebrews 11:13-16 disagrees with you.

The promise of Canaan to Abraham was not literally fulfilled, he did not possess a foot of ground there.

Either the proimise was allegorical, or God was a liar about the promise as literal.
Hebrews 11:13-16 deals with that very issue (allegorical/literal) and charge (God breaking his covenant word).

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And it is my opinion that all should have at least 4 books on hand , STRONG'S , VINE'S , MOUNCE'S Greek for the rest of US , AND ESPECIALLY , A Manuel of the Greek New Testament by DANA and MANTEY .And in 1 John 5:7 we read For there are THREE that bear bear record in heaven , the Father , the WORD , and the HOLY SPIRIT and These THREE ARE ONE .

The Greek word ARE /.EISI is in thr Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD .

The PRESENT TENSE , means that the three are always and continually in PRESENT TIME and the Indicative Mood means it is a FACT .

Is ONE / HEIS then an ALLEGORY or just a Figure of SPEECH and all letters in the Greek have a numerical value .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And it is my opinion that all should have at least 4 books on hand , STRONG'S , VINE'S , MOUNCE'S Greek for the rest of US , AND ESPECIALLY , A Manuel of the Greek New Testament by DANA and MANTEY .And in 1 John 5:7 we read For there are THREE that bear bear record in heaven , the Father , the WORD , and the HOLY SPIRIT and These THREE ARE ONE .

The Greek word ARE /.EISI is in thr Greek PRESENT TENSE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD .

The PRESENT TENSE , means that the three are always and continually in PRESENT TIME and the Indicative Mood means it is a FACT .

Is ONE / HEIS then an ALLEGORY or just a Figure of SPEECH and all letters in the Greek have a numerical value .

dan p

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You did not address Hebrews 11:13-16.

Clare73 said:

You did not address Hebrews 11:13-16.

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And will do that now .

#1 They all died in FAITH/ PISTA , and is in the ACCUSATIVE CASE which says limited to faith.
#2 NOT / ME is in the DISJUSCTIVE PARTICLE , NEGATIVE and NOTTTTTTTTTT receive the promises .

#3 Because their yet will be many that will enter the Millennium in the future .

#4 And having seen THEM /AUTO is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN and embraced them .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And will do that now .

#1 They all died in FAITH/ PISTA , and is in the ACCUSATIVE CASE which says limited to faith.
#2 NOT / ME is in the DISJUSCTIVE PARTICLE , NEGATIVE and NOTTTTTTTTTT receive the promises .

#3 Because their yet will be many that will enter the Millennium in the future .

#4 And having seen THEM /AUTO is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN and embraced them .

dan p

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I don't know what all that means. Please translate it into a grammatically correct sentence.

Clare73 said:

I don't know what all that means. Please translate it into a grammatically correct sentence.

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And anyone can google , and find out , or check out BLUE LETTER BIBLE .

DAN P

Dan Perez said:

And anyone can google , and find out , or check out BLUE LETTER BIBLE.

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Non-responsive. . .

Clare73 said:

Non-responsive. . .

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And you never tried ?

Let's refresh it , then !

In the Greek text there are 8 TENSES , 3 Voices , 4 moods , 8 cases , and when talking about the ACCUSATIVE CASE , seems to be the oldest of the cases and embraces 3 ideas , the end , or direction or extent of motion or action .

I am not a scholar , but I can read what the , really good scholars have written and of course the Greek pronouns , like OV AND UN are called DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE , NEGATIVES , and when seeing thr words NOT , NEITHER , they are negative .

You can not depend on me and need to study and be convinced as there is a lot to learn .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And you never tried ?

Let's refresh it , then !

In the Greek text there are 8 TENSES , 3 Voices , 4 moods , 8 cases , and when talking about the ACCUSATIVE CASE , seems to be the oldest of the cases and embraces 3 ideas , the end , or direction or extent of motion or action .

I am not a scholar , but I cn read what the , really good scholars have written and of course the Greek pronouns , like OV AND UN are called DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE , NEGATIVES , and when seeing thr words NOT , NEITHER , they are negative .

You can not depend on me and need to study and be convinced as there is a lot to learn .

dan p

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Beware of those bearing Greek in an attempt to make their man-made doctrines work.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



Genesis of Dispensational Theology:

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BABerean2 said:

Beware of those bearing Greek in an attempt to make their man-made doctrines work.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



Genesis of Dispensational Theology:

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And you say it specifically applied to Church in 2 Cor 3:6-8 and just Maybe some one will explain , that in verse 13-14 , Israel was set aside and that happened in Paul's time and verse 13 says the Law of Moses was ABOLISHED , unless some one knows where David's SEAT is and then SEE will Christ sitting on David's Throne and wonder if anyone has seen the 12 APOSTLES JUDGDING Israel .

The New Covenant has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

The New Covenant has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ .

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If the New Covenant was somehow connected to the Body of Christ, modern Dispensational Theology would be shown for the man-made doctrine that it really is.

Does your salvation come from following the Old Covenant?

If your salvation does not come from His blood of the New Covenant, are you lost without hope?


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Copied from Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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BABerean2 said:

If the New Covenant was somehow connected to the Body of Christ, modern Dispensational Theology would be shown for the man-made doctrine that it really is.

Does your salvation come from following the Old Covenant?

If your salvation does not come from His blood of the New Covenant, are you lost without hope?


Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH— (Copied from Jeremiah 31:31-34)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

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And I believe what you wrote in Heb 8:8 , and the Greek word I WILL MAKE / SYNTELO a verb , is in the FUTURE TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD which me what Paul wrote is a FACT .
the Body of Christ is and Inner Sanctuary as Paul wrote about in 1 Cor 3:15-17 !

So tell what is your thoughts on Rom 11:8-13 as Israel has been given a spirit og STUPOR , eyes to see NOT and EARS to HEAR NOT .

Israel and Judah have been asleep for over 2000 years and COUNTING .

dan p

Dan Perez said:

And I believe what you wrote in Heb 8:8 , and the Greek word I WILL MAKE / SYNTELO a verb , is in the FUTURE TENSE , ACTIVE VOICE and in the INDICATIVE MOOD which me what Paul wrote is a FACT .

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When a New Testament author quotes a verse from the Old Testament to show its fulfillment, is that something you do not understand?

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:35 And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you may believe.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

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Jer 31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
Jer 31:32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.
Jer 31:33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
Jer 31:34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


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