Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

Humble_Disciple · Jul 31, 2021

I have to plead ignorance on Romans 9, the scripture most cited by Calvinists to support their doctrine of unconditional election, because I didn't start reading the Book of Jeremiah until a few days ago.

When Paul uses the potter and clay analogy in Romans 9, it's unthinkable that Paul, as the Pharisee of Pharisees, didn't have Jeremiah 18 in mind:

Jeremiah 18
The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord: 2 “Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words.” 3 So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel. 4 And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.
5 Then the word of the Lord came to me: 6 “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. 7 If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it, 8 and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it. 9 And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, 10 and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. 11 Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the Lord, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’
12 “But they say, ‘That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’

As one can see, the potter makes Israel a vessel fit for destruction due to its free-willed choice to reject God. Otherwise, Jeremiah 18:12 doesn't make any logical sense, "That is in vain! We will follow our own plans, and will every one act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart."

Calvinists, by insisting that humans have no free will whatsoever to obey God, not even to accept God's free offer of salvation by faith alone through grace alone, are taking the side of the objector in Jeremiah 18:12.

The main disagreement that Arminians and Molinists have with Calvinism is whether or not God's grace is irresistible. While Calvinists insist that God's enabling grace is given only to the elect, without the possibility of rejecting it, Molinists and Arminians believe that God's enabling grace to believe the Gospel is given to all people equally, with the possibility of rejecting it. (John 12:32, John 15:26, John 16:8-11)

The most natural reading of Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12, is that God's decision of election is based on His foreknowledge of who would accept God's free offer of grace and who wouldn't, and is thus conditional, not unconditional.

I find it amazing that Calvinism takes the argument of Israel, against God. Jeremiah 18:12-13 states: “But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’” God is basically saying of Calvinism, “who ever heard the like of this?” God is not just disagreeing with Calvinism, He finds it “appalling.” What they are missing is the fact that although God recognized their inability to keep the Law, He held that as absolutely no excuse to prevent them from repenting, and returning to Him, in order to receive His mercy.
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2 Timothy 2:20-21 provides another potter/clay analogy which directly cuts against the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 9:

2 Timothy 2:20-21
In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

As one can see, in order to be a vessel for special purposes, you must cleanse yourself by accepting God's free offer of grace. It's not, according to 2 Timothy 2:20-21, due to unconditional election.

My intent on this forum has not been to convince others that Calvinism is true, but only that they should be more tolerant of Calvinists, especially since some of history's greatest missionaries and evangelists have been Calvinists.

Ecclesiastes 7:18
It is good to grasp the one and not let go of the other. Whoever fears God will avoid all extremes.

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

Please keep in mind that I disproved Calvinism on my own, based on my reading of scripture alone, rather than of what anti-Calvinists have to say.

I prayed for God to reveal to me whether Calvinism is true or untrue, and then I read the Bible until I had an answer.

If scripture is self-interpreting, as the Reformers insisted upon, then Romans 9 must be read in light of Jeremiah 18.

Nonetheless, I still believe we should be accepting of Calvinists as our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Hammster · Aug 1, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Calvinists, by insisting that humans have no free will whatsoever to obey God, not even to accept God's free offer of salvation by faith alone through grace alone, are taking the side of the objector in Jeremiah 18:12.

Since that’s not a Reformed position, it’s hard to see how you could knowledgeably call yourself a Calvinist.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

Hammster said:
Since that’s not a Reformed position, it’s hard to see how you could knowledgeably call yourself a Calvinist.

I'm a Protestant and my denominational affiliation on this forum has always been Protestant. As Protestants, we believe in scripture alone, and that scripture is self-interpreting.

It shouldn't surprise you, then, that after reading the Book of Jeremiah, I read Romans 9 in light of Jeremiah 18, which is what Paul intended, rather than in light of Calvinism.

Do you have anything specific to say regarding Jeremiah 18, the topic of this thread, especially Jeremiah 18:12?

Please also keep in mind that Jacobus Arminius himself was also from the Reformed tradition, and he was taught by Theodore Beza, a disciple of John Calvin.

John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

Hammster · Aug 1, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
I'm a Protestant and my denominational affiliation on this forum has always been Protestant. As Protestants, we believe in scripture alone, and that scripture is self-interpreting.

It shouldn't surprise you, then, that after reading the Book of Jeremiah, I read Romans 9 in light of Jeremiah 18, which is what Paul intended, rather than in light of Calvinism.

Do you have anything specific to say regarding Jeremiah 18, the topic of this thread, especially Jeremiah 18:12?

Please also keep in mind that Jacobus Arminius himself was also from the Reformed tradition, and he was taught by Theodore Beza, a disciple of John Calvin.

John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

If you had made this thread about those verses, I might have something to say. But when you make the OP a straw man, all I feel the need to do is point out the false pretense of the OP.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

Hammster said:
If you had made this thread about those verses, I might have something to say. But when you make the OP a straw man, all I feel the need to do is point out the false pretense of the OP.

Hammster · Aug 1, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:

Typical.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

No one looks at scripture from an entirely neutral viewpoint. That's why it's good to get various perspectives. While the Bible itself is infallible, our interpretations are not.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

It's a little unsettling that Calvinists, whether wittingly or unwittingly, take the side of the objector in Jeremiah 18 in their doctrines of total depravity and unconditional election.

I find it amazing that Calvinism takes the argument of Israel, against God. Jeremiah 18:12-13 states: “But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’ Therefore thus says the LORD, ‘Ask now among the nations, who ever heard the like of this? The virgin of Israel has done a most appalling thing.’” God is basically saying of Calvinism, “who ever heard the like of this?” God is not just disagreeing with Calvinism, He finds it “appalling.” What they are missing is the fact that although God recognized their inability to keep the Law, He held that as absolutely no excuse to prevent them from repenting, and returning to Him, in order to receive His mercy.
Home

Hammster · Aug 1, 2021

So much for that tolerance.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

I still regard John Piper as perhaps the greatest living preacher, and I'm not going to stop listening and stop respecting the same Calvinist preachers and theologians that I respected and listened to before.

The main point of contention between me and them would simply be whether or not God's decision in election is contingent upon foreseen faith, as Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2 would suggest, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12.

Another main disagreement that Arminians and Molinists have with Calvinism is whether or not God's grace is irresistible. While Calvinists insist that God's enabling grace is given only to the elect, without the possibility of rejecting it, Molinists and Arminians believe that God's enabling grace to believe the Gospel is given to all people equally, with the possibility of rejecting it. (John 12:32, John 15:26, John 16:8-11)

Molinists and Arminians, contrary to whatever John MacArthur might tell you, cannot be described as Palagean, because they agree with Calvinists that God's enabling (prevenient) grace is necessary to repent and believe the Gospel.

George Whitefield and John Wesley were able to accomplish great things together, as fellow Methodists, precisely because they were able to agree to disagree on predestination.

Winning souls for Christ should matter more than doctrinal differences that have nothing to do with the essentials of salvation. While the Bible itself is infallible, our particular interpretations are not, which is why it's good to hear from a variety of perspectives.

"IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY."

I accomplished everything I intended to accomplish in removing the blinders of anti-Calvinists, and now I'm doing the same for the other side, to the glory of God alone. Are we not all brothers and sisters in Christ?

Humble_Disciple · Aug 1, 2021

Arguments against Calvinism that aren't based on scripture alone don't work for me whatsoever.

Just saying that Calvinism calls into question God's character is not an argument, since none of us are born deserving of God's grace, and God can do whatever He pleases.

It was not until after reading Jeremiah 18 for myself, which is undoubtedly what Paul had in mind when he wrote Romans 9, that I was able to reject the doctrine of unconditional election.

The most natural reading of Romans 8:29-30 and 1 Peter 1:1-2, especially in light of Jeremiah 18:12, is that God's decision of election is based on His foreknowledge of who would accept God's free offer of grace and who wouldn't, and is thus conditional, not unconditional.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 2, 2021

I posted this to the forum several weeks ago:

Humble_Disciple said:
I have asked God to not make me a Calvinist if he doesn't want me to be a Calvinist. In the very least, I believe that God wants me to dispel myths about Calvinism, so that people will be relieved of their prejudice against Calvinists.

Since I am a Calvinist who believes in God’s irresistible grace, I accept that God will make me a provisionist, Arminian, or Molinist if He so chooses, according to His own glory and purposes. (Psalm 115:3, Psalm 135:6)

At the end of the day, your love for God is more important than the rightness of your theology:

1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.

If you are a Calvinist who believes in irresistible grace, then you must accept that God led me, through the reading of scripture, to ultimately reject the Calvinist understanding of unconditional election.

Hammster · Aug 2, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
I posted this to the forum several weeks ago:

If you are a Calvinist who believes in irresistible grace, then you must accept that God led me, through the reading of scripture, to ultimately reject the Calvinist understanding of unconditional election.

Obviously you don’t know what is meant by irresistible grace.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 2, 2021

Hammster said:
Obviously you don’t know what is meant by irresistible grace.

One might object, but it was sovereignly decreed for me to write it that way, if Calvinism is true.

Hammster · Aug 2, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
One might object, but it was sovereignly decreed for me to write it that way, if Calvinism is true.

Providence and irresistible grace are not the same thing.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 2, 2021

Hammster said:
Providence and irresistible grace are not the same thing.

Irresistible grace is provided to those whom God, out of His sovereign decree, have unconditionally elected unto salvation. If irresistible grace is true, God can irresistibly lead someone, based on reading the Scripture, to reject a fundamental doctrine of Calvinism.

Do you have anything to share regarding the potter/clay analogy of Jeremiah 18 and 2 Timothy 2:20-21 and how they relate to Romans 9?

Also, would you care to comment on John Calvin's rejection of limited atonement?
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

Hammster · Aug 2, 2021

Humble_Disciple said:
Irresistible grace is provided to those whom God, out of His sovereign decree, have unconditionally elected unto salvation. If irresistible grace is true, God can irresistibly lead someone, based on reading the Scripture, to reject a fundamental doctrine of Calvinism.

Do you have anything to share regarding the potter/clay analogy of Jeremiah 18 and 2 Timothy 2:20-21 and how they relate to Romans 9?

Also, would you care to comment on John Calvin's rejection of limited atonement?
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

You are still confusing providence with effectual calling. They aren’t the same thing.

Humble_Disciple · Aug 2, 2021

Hammster said:
You are still confusing providence with effectual calling. They aren’t the same thing.

Humble_Disciple said:
Do you have anything to share regarding the potter/clay analogy of Jeremiah 18 and 2 Timothy 2:20-21 and how they relate to Romans 9?

Also, would you care to comment on John Calvin's rejection of limited atonement?
John Calvin: Not a Calvinist

Hammster · Aug 2, 2021

I’m commenting on things you’ve actually said. If you don’t want to engage with folks who address things you say, perhaps you should just put them in a blog.

Jeremiah 18: Romans 9 De-Calvinized

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