We do not see things as they are. We see them as we are.

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Is there a subjective difference between perception and imagination?

According to Dijkstra's article, there is not a substantial subjective difference. What we imagine can obscure what we perceive when it is more vivid, but imagination can also make perception more real, i.e. a modified Perky effect.

Hume wrote, in 1739, in Book I of his Treatise of Human Nature: “The idea [imagination] of red which we form in the dark, differs only in degrees of intensity, not in nature, from the impression [perception] of red that strikes our eyes in sunshine.” When the things that we imagine are not really there, nor anything that looks like it, signals are unlikely to be strong enough to lead us to believe they reflect reality. However, when, for some reason, internally generated signals are strong enough, they will be indistinguishable from reality.

As it turns out, reality and imagination are completely intermixed in our brain which means that the separation between our inner world and the outside world is not as clear as we might like to think. If our imagination is vivid enough, we will think it is real and we use our imagination to create our perception of reality, which means, “We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are."


The Fine Line Between Reality and Imaginary - Issue 104: Harmony - Nautilus

Mental Imagery > The Perky Experiment (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

What is PERKY EFFECT? definition of PERKY EFFECT (Psychology Dictionary)
 

jacks

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Talking with my sister about our childhood, proves to me that "reality and imagination are completely intermixed in our brain." I think this is especially true with memories. Often we have completely different views of past events. And of course we are both sure, our view is correct!
 
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jacks

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public hermit

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I can see imagination having some influence, but it seems we generally know the difference between an imagination and a perception. Certainly, our imagination can alter a perception, but hardly ever does imagination produce a "perception" from nothing.

Then again, if we are used to seeing things in a certain way that could influence future perceptions so that minor differences go unnoticed.

I just don't know how far we can take the conclusion that we do not see things as they are, but as we are. Sure, perhaps in a Kantian sense we have cognitive "categories" that frame our experience, but would those categories even work if reality wasn't amenable to them in some significant way?
 
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jacks

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Certainly, our imagination can alter a perception, but hardly ever does imagination produce a "perception" from nothing.
I agree, though I have seen many a stick turn into a snake or rock turn into a rabbit. So it may not take much to alter our perceptions.
 
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Halbhh

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Certainly, our imagination can alter a perception, but hardly ever does imagination produce a "perception" from nothing.
If by hardly ever you mean once or twice in a year for a moment or two, then that is what I notice. That brief instant where the brain doesn't yet know what is there and for just a moment you can sometimes seem to see another thing than the real thing.

It's in estimating (guessing) at the attitudes of other people where we all will naturally 'project' if we try to guess at their attutudes/thoughts/character.

The only way to even avoid that is to know it's natural and inevitable, and then doubt the estimation and check on it.
 
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I agree, though I have seen many a stick turn into a snake or rock turn into a rabbit. So it may not take much to alter our perceptions.

That's true, especially when our "senses" are heightened, like when we're afraid. I saw many a thing in the dark when I was a child.

And, then, there's the experience of when we're looking for something good we find it; when we're looking for something bad we find it.
 
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TheWhat?

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It's really not very complicated, as it pertains to the christian faith. Is the person doing something wrong? No? Then they're not doing anything wrong.

But if we want to find fault against someone, well, that is not commended as righteous judgment, and that in and of itself is confronted by the teachings of Christ.
 
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I've posted a bit on this thing in terms of naïve realism and those who believe in it.

Naïve realism (psychology) - Wikipedia
How far off can our perceptions possibly be from reality when you consider how many things would kill us if our perceptions are off by a hair from reality? If you’re off by a split second while crossing a busy street you’re getting crushed by a car. If perception is even slightly off you’re cutting the tip of your finger off instead of the carrots you’re cutting. How far off does perception look from reality when you play tennis? I can’t imagine perceptions not being pretty dead on when I play tennis.

I think the wording is off in here, it’s more like a perception of attitude (like everyone hates me, or thinking that life is spectacular even if you’re dirt poor, or how a narcissist looks at reality, etc).
 
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That's true, especially when our "senses" are heightened, like when we're afraid. I saw many a thing in the dark when I was a child.

And, then, there's the experience of when we're looking for something good we find it; when we're looking for something bad we find it.
Yes and what happens when there are five bystanders standing around you who have perception/reality senses of their own, and they see you claim to have seen something that wasn’t there? All 5 confirm that it wasn’t there. Rare instances of trickery or confusion are not perceptions they are botched perceptions. For me I will sometimes make a favorable image out of an object that’s far away but then when I get closer I see that it’s just a stick in the dirt, so my perception corrects itself, I just recognize I wasn’t in a good spot to make the call.
 
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planets are gates to higher realities. reality is minds all the way down which equates to God being an infinite mind.

yesterday I had spiritual communion with the planets Jupiter, then Mars, then Venus then later on I communed a bit with the angelic throne called Uranus and he just specifically told me to give him the title of throne. now physicalist will say i'm mad but I would say that they have no clue that reality is infinite mind and those who I talked with are real beings. they are so very close to us.

here is what the material celestial bodies in our universe are, they are massive collections of (usually) angelic realities, vary many different societies in heaven which have many souls in them and this universe is multidimensional in a way that I don't know how to understand. but the one that seemed highest to me was Venus, though I feel like a babe in this new discovery and experiences i'm having. she was the kindest but you have to be very pure in order to commune rightly with the highest angels of the heaven of heavens, of which she is a unification of some of them that becomes a unique personality and she is united to God and is an expression of him. I also spoke with a proto-conscious atom of this universe and it is simple, has a bliss feeling and does not notice time that much and it very much has a will to it.

the reason why matter emerges into complex forms from proto-consciousnesses is just the other side of the emanations coming from higher realities. in a similar way as I am not just flesh but am soul and spirit so too are things like stars, planets and moons. my body keeps existing and is alive due to higher realities holding it together. it is the same for the stars and planets. I have once again a new revitalization in that I see God as Elohim more now than ever and yes I fear not to say it, these planets are basically El. right in front of all of us are divine beings and they are very near to all of us. because I know the truth and I know God very well, it far exceeds and overflows common religious perceptions.

scientist and most humans see the universe as a corpse because they believe it can't possibly be alive. it is but a veil over your eyes. thanks to ignorance you exist in an illusion of what reality really is. and I by no means have fully comprehended it either. as far as I can tell, the essence of God is incomprehensible due to his mind being infinite and eternal. therefore he is both grasped and beyond grasping.
 
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Citizen of the Kingdom

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planets are gates to higher realities. reality is minds all the way down which equates to God being an infinite mind.

yesterday I had spiritual communion with the planets Jupiter, then Mars, then Venus then later on I communed a bit with the angelic throne called Uranus and he just specifically told me to give him the title of throne. now physicalist will say i'm mad but I would say that they have no clue that reality is infinite mind and those who I talked with are real beings. they are so very close to us.

here is what the material celestial bodies in our universe are, they are massive collections of (usually) angelic realities, vary many different societies in heaven which have many souls in them and this universe is multidimensional in a way that I don't know how to understand. but the one that seemed highest to me was Venus, though I feel like a babe in this new discovery and experiences i'm having. she was the kindest but you have to be very pure in order to commune rightly with the highest angels of the heaven of heavens, of which she is a unification of some of them that becomes a unique personality and she is united to God and is an expression of him. I also spoke with a proto-conscious atom of this universe and it is simple, has a bliss feeling and does not notice time that much and it very much has a will to it.

the reason why matter emerges into complex forms from proto-consciousnesses is just the other side of the emanations coming from higher realities. in a similar way as I am not just flesh but am soul and spirit so too are things like stars, planets and moons. my body keeps existing and is alive due to higher realities holding it together. it is the same for the stars and planets. I have once again a new revitalization in that I see God as Elohim more now than ever and yes I fear not to say it, these planets are basically El. right in front of all of us are divine beings and they are very near to all of us. because I know the truth and I know God very well, it far exceeds and overflows common religious perceptions.

scientist and most humans see the universe as a corpse because they believe it can't possibly be alive. it is but a veil over your eyes. thanks to ignorance you exist in an illusion of what reality really is. and I by no means have fully comprehended it either. as far as I can tell, the essence of God is incomprehensible due to his mind being infinite and eternal. therefore he is both grasped and beyond grasping.
What I heard you say is that the big and small of it is comfortably numb in the non reality of bliss. :cool: about the rest ..... talking stars eh?
 
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public hermit

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planets are gates to higher realities. reality is minds all the way down which equates to God being an infinite mind.

yesterday I had spiritual communion with the planets Jupiter, then Mars, then Venus then later on I communed a bit with the angelic throne called Uranus and he just specifically told me to give him the title of throne. now physicalist will say i'm mad but I would say that they have no clue that reality is infinite mind and those who I talked with are real beings. they are so very close to us.

here is what the material celestial bodies in our universe are, they are massive collections of (usually) angelic realities, vary many different societies in heaven which have many souls in them and this universe is multidimensional in a way that I don't know how to understand. but the one that seemed highest to me was Venus, though I feel like a babe in this new discovery and experiences i'm having. she was the kindest but you have to be very pure in order to commune rightly with the highest angels of the heaven of heavens, of which she is a unification of some of them that becomes a unique personality and she is united to God and is an expression of him. I also spoke with a proto-conscious atom of this universe and it is simple, has a bliss feeling and does not notice time that much and it very much has a will to it.

the reason why matter emerges into complex forms from proto-consciousnesses is just the other side of the emanations coming from higher realities. in a similar way as I am not just flesh but am soul and spirit so too are things like stars, planets and moons. my body keeps existing and is alive due to higher realities holding it together. it is the same for the stars and planets. I have once again a new revitalization in that I see God as Elohim more now than ever and yes I fear not to say it, these planets are basically El. right in front of all of us are divine beings and they are very near to all of us. because I know the truth and I know God very well, it far exceeds and overflows common religious perceptions.

scientist and most humans see the universe as a corpse because they believe it can't possibly be alive. it is but a veil over your eyes. thanks to ignorance you exist in an illusion of what reality really is. and I by no means have fully comprehended it either. as far as I can tell, the essence of God is incomprehensible due to his mind being infinite and eternal. therefore he is both grasped and beyond grasping.

Would you say that we imagine the cosmos as "dead," and therefore, we don't see the reality that it is living? ( I almost thought you were going to bring up pansychism) I'm grasping at straws here, but there is the notion that we have "disenchanted" reality, flattened it to a reductive ontology, and so we are incapable of seeing higher realities. Chesterton said something to that effect, I think.
 
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TheWhat?

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Wait a second
crisis.jpg
 
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TheWhat?

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I think the following are relevant.

"For I do not seek to understand in order that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand. For this also I believe-that unless I believe I shall not understand." ~Anslem

[Eph 1:16-19 RSV] 16 I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him, 18 having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope to which he has called you, what are the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe, according to the working of his great might...

[Rom 10:10 RSV] 10 For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

As an empiricist, this is a major reason why I find Hume to be more agreeable than many of the philosophers:

"To hate, to love, to think, to feel, to see; all this is nothing but to perceive."

And if that is agreeable, it stands to reason, change the inner man, and you will change your perspective.
 
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Chesterton

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Is there a subjective difference between perception and imagination?

According to Dijkstra's article, there is not a substantial subjective difference. What we imagine can obscure what we perceive when it is more vivid, but imagination can also make perception more real, i.e. a modified Perky effect.

Hume wrote, in 1739, in Book I of his Treatise of Human Nature: “The idea [imagination] of red which we form in the dark, differs only in degrees of intensity, not in nature, from the impression [perception] of red that strikes our eyes in sunshine.” When the things that we imagine are not really there, nor anything that looks like it, signals are unlikely to be strong enough to lead us to believe they reflect reality. However, when, for some reason, internally generated signals are strong enough, they will be indistinguishable from reality.

As it turns out, reality and imagination are completely intermixed in our brain which means that the separation between our inner world and the outside world is not as clear as we might like to think. If our imagination is vivid enough, we will think it is real and we use our imagination to create our perception of reality, which means, “We do not see things as they are, we see them as we are."


The Fine Line Between Reality and Imaginary - Issue 104: Harmony - Nautilus

Mental Imagery > The Perky Experiment (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

What is PERKY EFFECT? definition of PERKY EFFECT (Psychology Dictionary)
Have you ever read The Abolition Of Man by C. S. Lewis?
 
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