Predestination/"Free Will"

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CCWoody

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3rd April 2003 at 09:43 AM nikolai_42 said this in Post #148

Some good questions bird! I was just browsing and had a couple of thoughts for you, rnmomof7 and CCWoody. More of a summing up, really.

If I understand rnmom and CC correctly, there is a group of people (called the elect) that God already knows - even if they don't know Him yet. They will be saved and only they. But where I have questions is where God Himself (through inspired men) says that He desires all men to be saved. Which would seem to me to mean a part of His desires going eternally unsatisfied. Now, maybe that's a misrepresentation - His desire really isn't for all men to be saved. If that's the case, then I can fully see God choosing to save some and not others. Otherwise, it seems God ends up being satisfied with being unsatisfied - because of man's free will. Unless of course those who are eternally ****** are ****** because God predestined them to be that way.

Just some observations. Comments on this? Where is my understanding faulty?

  • 1 Timothy 2:1-4
    Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
You will tell me that this passage does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race.

Yet, what do we know about prayers concerning the will of God:
  • John 14:13-14
    Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

    AND
  • 1 John 5:14-15
    Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
And this brings me to ask a simple question for everyone who believes that the "All men" means"All men" without exception instead of the more common "All men" without distinction:

If you were to pray for the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race, would all men without exception be saved just as the Lord himself has promised? Or was the Lord just teasing us?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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nikolai_42

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3rd April 2003 at 10:12 PM CCWoody said this in Post #161



  • 1 Timothy 2:1-4
    Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
You will tell me that this passage does directly instruct us to pray for God to effectually accomplish nothing less than the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race.

Yet, what do we know about prayers concerning the will of God:
  • John 14:13-14
    Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

    AND
  • 1 John 5:14-15
    Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.
And this brings me to ask a simple question for everyone who believes that the "All men" means"All men" without exception instead of the more common "All men" without distinction:

If you were to pray for the actual salvific redemption of "All men" without exception, every single individual member of the human race, would all men without exception be saved just as the Lord himself has promised? Or was the Lord just teasing us?

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 So I Timothy is, at the very least, translated incorrectly? God DOESN'T desire all men to be saved? I have yet to see a verse where it says He doesn't desire this. But I do see at least one verse where it says God does explicitly desire this. Again, we are talking about desire here, not fulfillment. You seem to say that God will be satisfied because His will is that only some be saved. That would be a logical conclusion in Calvinism, I certainly agree.
 
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CCWoody

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3rd April 2003 at 06:39 PM Ragman said this in Post #159



Woody:

 

Do I believe God is a liar?  No, He said the He reconciled the world to Himself in Christ and I believe He did.  Would He send into the flames of hell men that the blood of Christ washed clean?  As a good friend has said, "Our God is a consuming fire".  Not only would He allow people to be sent into the fire, He will keep them there until every bit of dross in consumed.  Does God demand double payment from some men?  No, God doesn't demand payment at all.  The problem is not God needing to paid off.  The problem is that we are sinners and need to be healed.

Ragman, you may not assert that for Jesus Christ to reconcile the world to Himself means that Jesus Christ has reconciled every single last memeber of the human race to Himself. Your "govermental" view of the Atonement is completely unscriptural:
  • Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Ragman, not all men died in Christ! Not all men were reconciled to Christ.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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Mandy

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The Scriptural view of the atonement of Jesus's death is very clear, Jesus' death was sufficient to save everyone, but not all will be saved. How do you reconcile a God of love, who is love, and a just and holy God, with your view that God actually would choose to send people to hell, when in fact, the Bible states that hell, the lake of fire, was originally prepared for satan and his angels? Anyone who ends up going to hell, will be there because they chose to deny Christ and His all sufficient sacrifice. Calvanism declares that God is the author of sin and actually makes us sin, how then could He be holy and just?
 
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drstevej

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3rd April 2003 at 08:51 PM Mandy said this in Post #164

Anyone who ends up going to hell, will be there because they chose to deny Christ and His all sufficient sacrifice. 


Acts 13:48 [NIV] When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

It does not say "all who believed were appointed for eternal life."
 
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CCWoody

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3rd April 2003 at 08:21 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #162



 So I Timothy is, at the very least, translated incorrectly? God DOESN'T desire all men to be saved? I have yet to see a verse where it says He doesn't desire this. But I do see at least one verse where it says God does explicitly desire this. Again, we are talking about desire here, not fulfillment. You seem to say that God will be satisfied because His will is that only some be saved. That would be a logical conclusion in Calvinism, I certainly agree.

I think it should be absurdely obvious that the Lord doesn't desire desire the salvation of all men.  If He had, then, by designing the gospel the way He did, He guaranteed that it wouldn't happen.  I mean, not even every single man gets an opportunity to be saved.

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4).

"A Stone of stumbling, and a Rock of offence, even to them who stumble at the Word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed" (1 Peter 2:8).

"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption" (2 Peter 2:12).

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ" (Jude 4).

"What then? That which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not, but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened" (Rom. 11:7 R. V.).

"For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess. 5:9). Now surely it is patent to any impartial mind that this statement is quite pointless if God has not "appointed" any to wrath. To say that God "hath not appointed us to wrath" clearly implies that there are some whom He has "appointed to wrath," and were it not that the minds of so many professing Christians are so blinded by prejudice, they could not fail to clearly see this.

Matthew 11: 20 - 27 --
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. "Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies? No, you will go down to the depths. If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you." At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure. "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

  • God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND
  • God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND
  • God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew. True, or False?
Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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nikolai_42

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3rd April 2003 at 10:51 PM Mandy said this in Post #164

The Scriptural view of the atonement of Jesus's death is very clear, Jesus' death was sufficient to save everyone, but not all will be saved. How do you reconcile a God of love, who is love, and a just and holy God, with your view that God actually would choose to send people to hell, when in fact, the Bible states that hell, the lake of fire, was originally prepared for satan and his angels? Anyone who ends up going to hell, will be there because they chose to deny Christ and His all sufficient sacrifice. Calvanism declares that God is the author of sin and actually makes us sin, how then could He be holy and just?

So is God SATISFIED with NOT ALL being saved when it is something He desires (According to 1 Timothy)? The reasoning that CCWoody used was in part circular. What it comes down to (and this much is logical) is that he believes that God doesn't desire all men to be saved. But according to what I read in the verse, He does. Regardless of outcome, is God satisfied with having His desire unfufilled?
 
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nikolai_42

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"God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice NOT TO REPENT in the case of His non-performance of such Miracles; AND

God foreknew Tyre and Sidon's free choice TO REPENT in the case of His performance of such Miracles; AND

God CHOSE not to perform these Miracles in Tyre and Sidon, a choice which had as its perfectly foreknown result the NON-Repentance of Tyre and Sidon, just as He foreknew. True, or False? "

Absolutely! And He says this with the assurance that HAD He performed the miracles to many, they WOULD have believed. But God didn't give them the chance. Knowing this, and judging the heart, there is nothing saying Tyre and Sidon were condemned. In His foreknowledge, He may well have been compassionate in not making them responsible for seeing such things. Again, we do not know the judgement Tyre and Sidon will receive.
 
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nikolai_42

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3rd April 2003 at 11:12 PM Mandy said this in Post #168

So PAul was only preaching to the "chosen"? I think not, if God picks and chooses who would be saved, there would be no need to go and preach the gospel to the world. Paul is urging these people to believe the gospel and receive Christ.


Either He is satisfied or He isn't. If He is satisfied, then Paul was, in the end, preaching to the 'chosen'. If He isn't satisfied, then Paul preached to whomever would hear and God can only stand by and hope people believe.
 
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CCWoody

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3rd April 2003 at 08:51 PM Mandy said this in Post #164

The Scriptural view of the atonement of Jesus's death is very clear, Jesus' death was sufficient to save everyone, but not all will be saved. How do you reconcile a God of love, who is love, and a just and holy God, with your view that God actually would choose to send people to hell, when in fact, the Bible states that hell, the lake of fire, was originally prepared for satan and his angels? Anyone who ends up going to hell, will be there because they chose to deny Christ and His all sufficient sacrifice. Calvanism declares that God is the author of sin and actually makes us sin, how then could He be holy and just?

No, Calvinism does not declare that God is the author of sin.  Nor does it teach that God actually makes us sin.  Whoever told you this LIED to you.

"God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions."

Man rebelled against God. It is pure Grace, pure love, that He has ordained to save any, when it would satisfy His perfect justice to destroy us all.

Man FELL. He does not deserve Heaven.

I believe it.
Do you??

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.
 
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nikolai_42

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3rd April 2003 at 11:12 PM Mandy said this in Post #168

So PAul was only preaching to the "chosen"? I think not, if God picks and chooses who would be saved, there would be no need to go and preach the gospel to the world. Paul is urging these people to believe the gospel and receive Christ.


Either He is satisfied or He isn't. If He is satisfied, then Paul was, in the end, preaching to the 'chosen'. If He isn't satisfied, then Paul preached to whomever would hear and God can only stand by and hope people believe and even engage in some persuasion, but never actually bring them over without their permission (?) ... unless they are of the elect ... (??)
 
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CCWoody

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3rd April 2003 at 09:16 PM nikolai_42 said this in Post #169

Again, we do not know the judgement Tyre and Sidon will receive.


Sure we do: "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life.  No one comes unto the Father except through Me."

In as much as the Lord has denied them the means of salvation, He has entirely denied them salvation.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


P.S.  If my earlier argument was circular, it should have been very easy to rip it apart.  The problem is that you can't.  We know that the Father grants any petition we make according to His will.  Yet, 1 Ti 2:1-4 states that He "will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."  And 2 Pe 3:9 says that He is "not willing that any should perish".  Yet, you seem reluctant to acknowledge that a prayer to save all men will NOT be answered.
 
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nikolai_42

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3rd April 2003 at 11:32 PM CCWoody said this in Post #173




Sure we do: "I am THE way, THE truth, and THE life.  No one comes unto the Father except through Me."

In as much as the Lord has denied them the means of salvation, He has entirely denied them salvation.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


P.S.  If my earlier argument was circular, it should have been very easy to rip it apart.  The problem is that you can't.  We know that the Father grants any petition we make according to His will.  Yet, 1 Ti 2:1-4 states that He "will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."  And 2 Pe 3:9 says that He is "not willing that any should perish".  Yet, you seem reluctant to acknowledge that a prayer to save all men will NOT be answered.


All I was saying was that you said that the 'proof' that I Timothy does not really mean He desires all men to be saved is it isn't His will.  Your proof of that was not proof, it was simply grounded in the fact that You don't believe God desires all men to be saved. I say this because there is no verse that says anything against that God does desire all men to be saved. Bear in mind I was focusing on the desire. Then, going on to the fulfillment, you assert the desire and the fulfillment are not the same. That leads me to the conclusion that you don't believe God will be satisfied (if you accept the verse in Timothy literally). But you have said that God will save whom He desires - indicating a satisfaction of His desires. It seems your conclusion is reached based on an implicit assumption that God WILL be satisfied - which overrides your interpretation of the verse in Timothy. It says God DOES desire all to be saved, but because of your assumption that a) God MUST be satisfied and b) There is no evidence that all will be saved, you cannot accept the verse as really meaning all. This is nothing but an attempt at a logical analysis. I'm not saying your conclusions or thoughts are wrong or unscriptural, just that the fundamental logic is grounded in those two things. It was 'circular' insofar as the 'proof' you gave assumed it wasn't God's will that all be saved. I didn't see anything you said actually directly refuting a literal interpretation of that verse in Timothy.

 However, with Tyre and Sidon, only God can see the heart. If a man is never presented with Jesus Christ, who can say how that man will react? Only God can. That's what I mean by not knowing how God will judge them. Unless you don't believe what Jesus said about what would happen AFTER His resurrection (Tyre and Sidon already being 'judged' in your structure, it seems):

 "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw ALL men unto me."

 Did He? Will He?
 
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Mandy

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Is God glorified by chosing someone to burn in hell? God created us for His good pleasure, do you really believe it pleases God to see people die seperated from Him? One cannot come to Christ without the Holy Spirit drawing him, (yet God has given us freewill to believe and receive the gift of eternal life), but one must also respond to the Holy Spirit. The Bible states that Jesus is the Savior of ALL men, because His work was sufficient to save all men, He took the sins of the WHOLE world. The Bible also states that God is NOT a respecter of persons, yet that is exactly what Calvinism teaches. If Calvinism is true, then God created evil, yet if He created it, than why would the wickedness of Noah's day grieve Him? Weren't they only doing what He caused them to do? The patterns, pictures and promises in the Old Testament offered salvation to all who would believe. This was unquestionably true of the Passover, Day of Atonement, and Levitical sacrifices. None were limited to an "elect." There never was such a group.
When Isaiah said, "All we like sheep have gone astray," surely by all he didn't mean some of Israel. Likewise, when he followed that statement with "but the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all," it could only mean that the coming Messiah would pay the penalty for the sins of all. All Israel was offered deliverance from the serpent's poison through looking in faith to the bronze serpent lifted up on the pole (Nm 21:8). And Christ made a direct connection between that event and His sacrifice for the sins of the world (Jn 3:14-15).  Was it only the "chosen one's" who were able to look upo the serpent?  No.
That the sacrifices were offered for all Israel did not guarantee that all Israel would be saved. Salvation was offered to all; it was up to each person to accept or reject it: "but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it" (Heb 4:2). Tragically, salvation was both offered and available (as it is today through the gospel) to many who are now in hell through unbelief. God said, "I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me" (Is 1:2); "All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people" (Rom 10:21). Stephen indicted the rabbis and all Israel with these words: "ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye" (Acts 7:51).

Also John 3:16, shouldn't it read whosoever is chosen will not perish..., instead of whosoever believes will not perish..., if Calvinism was truth? 

We have freewill, God didn't create us as puppet.  He is glorified so much more through our choosing to love Him in return, then if we were puppets "chosen" to love Him.

 

CC, Jesus stated He is the way the truth and life, because only His sacrifice saves, only He is THE Savior.  In otherwords,  eternal life is only through Him.  It is only through faith in Christ that we can come to the Father, Jesus is not stating that no one can come to God unless He chose them. 
 
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Mandy

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3rd April 2003 at 07:19 PM CCWoody said this in Post #171



No, Calvinism does not declare that God is the author of sin.  Nor does it teach that God actually makes us sin.  Whoever told you this LIED to you.

"God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions."

Man rebelled against God. It is pure Grace, pure love, that He has ordained to save any, when it would satisfy His perfect justice to destroy us all.

Man FELL. He does not deserve Heaven.

I believe it.
Do you??

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

 

But you can't forget about God's perfect love for His creation, which is why He sent His Son to bear the sins of the world, even if only a fraction would be saved.  God is willing that NONE should perish but ALL would come to repentance....
 
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nikolai_42

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3rd April 2003 at 11:58 PM Mandy said this in Post #177

Also, if man fell because God ordained him to, how could God be just in punishing him?
Man fell because God gave him freewill to chose right and wrong.


 Interesting point here, Mandy. Really might be a whole new thread, but just to get a bit more specific, it was THE man who rebelled knowingly, while the woman was deceived. Yet both tasted the fruit of expulsion from Eden (Genesis 3:17 and I Timothy 2:14).
 
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Ragman

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3rd April 2003 at 08:22 PM CCWoody said this in Post #163



Ragman, you may not assert that for Jesus Christ to reconcile the world to Himself means that Jesus Christ has reconciled every single last memeber of the human race to Himself. Your "govermental" view of the Atonement is completely unscriptural:
  • Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection.
Ragman, not all men died in Christ! Not all men were reconciled to Christ.

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.

Woody:

I can do more than assert all men died and were reconciled in Christ I can quote it:

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them <I>be</I> the reconciling of the world, what <I>shall</I> the receiving <I>of them be</I>, but life from the dead?

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.


Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, <I>I say</I>, whether <I>they be</I> things in earth, or things in heaven.

Now, you say that when it says all were dead, that all weren't dead.&nbsp; And you say that when it says, reconciling the world, that He wasn't reconciling the world.&nbsp; I say, all were made dead and all were reconciled.

Your assertion that all were not made dead and reconciled is an attack on the deity of Christ, because it is by virtue of His deity that all died in His death, were raised in His resurrection, and were reconciled by His incarnation. For the scriptures take great pains to declare that Jesus Christ is God and by virtue of being God all men were made through Him and all men are held together in Him.&nbsp; Therefore, whatever became of Him became of all men.&nbsp; This is why the apostle Paul tells the Athenian philosophers that in "Him" they lived and moved and had their being.

As for having a governmental view of the atonement.&nbsp; I do not have a governmental view.&nbsp; I have a personal view.&nbsp; The Eternal Son, who dwells in the bosom of His Father, became everything that we had become in our fallenness, overcame it by the power of the Spirit, united Himself with us and returned us to the embrace of His Father as daughters and sons of God.&nbsp; Woody, you are the son that the Father has always desired, and so is the man that you condemn.
 
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Ragman

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3rd April 2003 at 09:19 PM CCWoody said this in Post #171



No, Calvinism does not declare that God is the author of sin.&nbsp; Nor does it teach that God actually makes us sin.&nbsp; Whoever told you this LIED to you.

"God hath made man upright: but they have sought out many inventions."

Man rebelled against God. It is pure Grace, pure love, that He has ordained to save any, when it would satisfy His perfect justice to destroy us all.

Man FELL. He does not deserve Heaven.

I believe it.
Do you??

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.


Woody:

It does not satisfy God's perfect justice to destroy us all.&nbsp; Even if one were to accept your view of justice, which I do not, one cannot separate it from that God is loving.&nbsp; To love, at it's most basic level, means that one will do good for another.&nbsp; It is not good to destroy another.&nbsp; It is not loving to destroy another and not attempt to help them.&nbsp; Remember the good Samaritan?&nbsp; The Father in the prodigal Son who speaks to us of&nbsp;God the Father? Man did fall, he does not "deserve" heaven.&nbsp; But for the record he didn't deserve to be created, but He was.&nbsp; And now, God being true to His own nature which is holy love, will seek to do good for every man, woman and child.&nbsp; How can you by any stretch arrive that to create someone for hell is loving and doing good for them?&nbsp;

&nbsp;
 
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