Why do SDA preach

Major1 said:

England Did Not decalare war on the USA during the Civil War.

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Or afterwards.

icedragon101 said:

I will say it out right, I believe there will be a time when the creator and the creation order will be one of the defining issue between true and false believers, the faithful and unfaithful. Scripture is very clear in Revelation that the issue is Worship.

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Would it be helpful to go through chapter 7, 13, 14, etc. so folks understand what you are referring to?

Then people can compare notes.

LoveGodsWord said:

4 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. – Binding on all Christians today -Hebrews 4:9

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Okay that's a good one. Best read with the entire chapter. I'll meditate on it.

LoveGodsWord said:

The Sabbath [seventh day] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, so the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28, Hebrews 4; Matthew 12:8; Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; Matthew 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1;

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I'm not aware of any qualms about that.

LoveGodsWord said:

(After the death of Jesus) Matthew 24:20; Matthew 28:1; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4

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There's no dispute I'm aware of that the sabbath was still observed in Jerusalem after the Resurrection.

LoveGodsWord said:

Hebrews 4:1-5; 9-11

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As mentioned above, I think the whole of Hebrews 4 covers a lot.

LoveGodsWord said:

Revelations 1:10 (see Matthew 12:8)

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Seems "the Lord's Day" is only mentioned in Revelations 1:10. I thought I read some SDA saying "the Lord's Day" is not in the Bible. I know the "the Lord's Day" is usually associated with Sunday. So I'll need to examine that further as well.

So out of those, all of Hebrews 4 and Revelation 1:10 have caught my attention the most.

MMXX said:

Okay that's a good one. Best read with the entire chapter. I'll meditate on it.

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In this case, you will likely want to go back to chapter 3 where the overall section begins.

tall73 said:

In this case, you will likely want to go back to chapter 3 where the overall section begins.

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Have you been down this road already? If so so you think it adds up to; "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. – Binding on all Christians today"?

This is informative. I've come to know the speaker, Steve Gregg, pretty well over the last 12 years or so. He's extremely serious about obedience. And he knows the scriptures very thoroughly. I feel confident that if he found evidence that the 4th commandment applied to gentile Christians, that's what he would be teaching. Sort video, less than 5 minutes.

MMXX said:

It seems to me that's saying right off that the New Covenant is not the same as the Old Covenant. Or put another way, that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. Or that the Old Covenant became obsolete.

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Agreed.

But the moral law (such as the TEN ) did not vanish when the old covenant that condemns all mankind (Rom 3:19-20) still to this very day - ends (which happens when a lost person accepts the New Covenant).

So no wonder Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations affirm this very simple and easy Bible detail. as we saw here --
Yesterday at 6:48 PM #761

Here is Moody's TEN Commandment sermon

D.L. Moody - Weighed and Wanting

And here is his statement on the Sabbath Commandment

D.L. Moody - Weighed and Wanting: Chapter 6 - Fourth Commandment

5. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
James 2:10.

Is a Good example where James quotes things like "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and "do not kill" Ex 20 - and saying even at the time he is writing - those who break that law are condemned by the Law as sinners. (This is not James making an argument for Christians to be sure an kill someone so they won't be held accountable to God's Commandments).

1 Cor 7:19 "what matter is keeping the Commandments of God"


6. That Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to these details in the Bible about "the TEN".

MMXX said:

I'm sure there's a meeting of the minds at some point. Like so:

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Yep and that is my point - the place where BOTH sides agree is not the most likely place where the Bible is soooo unlear that nobody can figure it out. Rather that is where almost every one sees the light of day. So why zero in on the easy part as if it is just too difficult to get right?

The point is not that to have a discussion "all must be A" or "all comments must be B" - the point is - "lets get passed the easy part".

And that is right were this conversation is getting stuck - as you just illustrated for us here -- #826

I prefer to get to the points where Bible scholars actually differ.

Major1 said:

Just so that I may be of service to you, and of course IF you are will to accept the help......YOU can not use the book of the Revelation to support any church activity or doctrine today.

There is NO CHURCH DOCTRINE in the book of the Revelation and to try and do so is forcing YOUR opinions on to something that is not supported.

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why are you talking to me. YOU won't answer any of the question set to you and YOU have show yourself to be here with some adjenda. and now YOU are trying to tell us HOW to view the scripture. Where do you get off talking like that. You are an amature of amatures . I am a professionally Theologian, having studied the ancient languages, spent years of my life studying my craft and will not have some novice tell me how to view my tools or use them. You don't even know half the false assumptions you use that we have to ignore and wade through just to be able to respond to you. You are so chalk full of error I am shocked you would even bother to put up a defense. so let me test you here and see if you will play by the rules and play fair.

What does this mean?? you never did answer me
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

If you want to see how a person is supposed to respond try looking at Tall73 response PM#758 that is how a person is suppose to respond.

MMXX said:

Have you been down this road already? If so so you think it adds up to; "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. – Binding on all Christians today"?

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Many times. But I do not want to bias you in your prayerful reading.

Once you have thought it over we can talk more about it.

I was an Adventist pastor for ten years, and in the Adventist church from my youth. But I left for doctrinal reasons, starting with the Adventist sanctuary teaching.

So I spent years reviewing all of the texts on the various points of doctrine both before and after leaving, and continue to.

I go long periods of time between these discussions now, but drop in at times to compare notes. I actually learn a lot through these discussions as I continue to study various Scriptures. But there is only so much you can take at a time due to the debate aspect.

Of course, I also think that the best way to understand Scripture is not in debate. And you have to understand it all in context apart from claims one way or the other.

So I would really suggest re-reading the whole book of Hebrews. But if you have a handle on the book in general it might not be necessary.

Major1 said:

Just so that I may be of service to you, and of course IF you are will to accept the help......YOU can not use the book of the Revelation to support any church activity or doctrine today.

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Everyone has free will - you can ignore any part of the Bible that you wish - but should not expect you can dictate to everyone else to ignore "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine..." 2 Tim 3:16.

So for example the "Millennium" of 1000 years doctrine that we find in Rev 19,20,21 will continue to be a "source of Biblical truth" for a great many Christians including this one.

Each one will decide for himself/herself.

MMXX said:

This is informative. I've come to know the speaker, Steve Gregg, pretty well over the last 12 years or so. He's extremely serious about obedience. And he knows the scriptures very thoroughly. I feel confident that if he found evidence that the 4th commandment applied to gentile Christians, that's what he would be teaching. Sort video, less than 5 minutes.

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Serious about obedience, except he wants to forget the only commandment God said to Remember. Sounds like the opposite to me.

Major1 said:

My dear friend. I have shown YOU how the SDA teaching on keeping the Law is not Biblical. I am not arguing or debating.

If you choose to follow their no-Biblical teachings after being shown, then the rest is on you.

Just to prove that , you just said ........
"Why would Jesus say keep the Sabbath when Gods' people were already keeping the Sabbath for over 4000 years and were already keeping the Sabbath commandment as well as all that other 10 commandments?"

Now we booth know that is not a true comment!!!

We both know that the word Sabbath does not appear in Scripture until Ex. 16.
Now that is a FACT!

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The insistence of that, which is mentioned in the short video I posted, is that the sabbath began on the seventh day after creation. Based on Bob's comment, apparently it's believed that Adam and Eve kept the sabbath. I guess when some folks are taught something, it sticks like glue.

Major1 said:

We are obviously not understanding historical facts.

I am saying that those events that Mrs. White predicted DID NOT take place.

England Did Not decalare war on the USA during the Civil War.

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The point was already made that she said if the US stayed divided. It did not.
And all those things did take place and I gave you links to them---apparently you did not look them up.

MMXX said:

I'm questioning the claim that sabbath keeping is mandatory for Christians under the New Covenant.

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1. The New Covenant is found in Jer 31:31-34 and it is not possible to suppose that in the OT those New Covenant saints were ignoring God's Commandments as if "that is a good thing".

2. The New Covenant of Jer 31 is unchanged verbatim in the NT - Heb 8:6-12.. no change.

3. The New Covenant says it is writing the LAW of God "on heart and mind" means that the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is the Law written on heart and mind under the Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 "New Covenant".

4. Gal 1:6-9 says there is - and has been - only ONE Gospel - and "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8. -- so the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 IS that Gospel Covenant. The one and only way of salvation. The one and only Gospel

5. And on "the TEN Written on the heart" and/or "the TEN Given to mankind in EDEN" detail Bible scholars in almost all denominations agree. As we saw here - - #761 and here #827

MMXX said:

Based on Bob's comment, apparently it's believed that Adam and Eve kept the sabbath. I guess when some folks are taught something, it sticks like glue.

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Since you already saw all the confession of faith making that same point and D.L. Moody making that same point (and obviously Ex 20:11 makes that case in pointing directly to Gen 2:1-3) As we saw here - - #761 and here #827 -- how "odd" it now appears that you are spinning it as if I am the source or the one promoting it for Bible scholars in almost all denominations.

details matter even when ignored.

icedragon101 said:

That might be useful. I think may people don't understand the SDA view,

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I don't think the SDA view even shows up as an issue when people are getting stuck on the Bible details about the Sabbath were Bible scholars on both sides of the discussion agree.

It truly would be "nice" if the discussion ever got to agreement past "the easy part" so as to then get to the "SDA view"

BobRyan said:

Agreed.

But the moral law (such as the TEN ) did not vanish when the old covenant that condemns all mankind (Rom 3:19-20) still to this very day - ends (which happens when a lost person accepts the New Covenant).

So no wonder Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations affirm this very simple and easy Bible detail.

Here is Moody's TEN Commandment sermon

D.L. Moody - Weighed and Wanting

And here is his statement on the Sabbath Commandment

D.L. Moody - Weighed and Wanting: Chapter 6 - Fourth Commandment

5. "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it."
James 2:10.

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That was a pretty big snip Bob. Is the rest of what I said something you want to avoid replying to?

BobRyan said:

Is a Good example where James quotes things like "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18 and "do not kill" Ex 20 - and saying even at the time he is writing - those who break that law are condemned by the Law as sinners. (This is not James making an argument for Christians to be sure an kill someone so they won't be held accountable to God's Commandments).

1 Cor 7:19 "what matter is keeping the Commandments of God"


6. That Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate admit to these details in the Bible about "the TEN".



Yep and that is my point - the place where BOTH sides agree is not the most likely place where the Bible is soooo unlear that nobody can figure it out. Rather that is where almost every one sees the light of day. So why zero in on the easy part as if it is just too difficult to get right?

The point is not that to have a discussion "all must be A" or "all comments must be B" - the point is - "lets get passed the easy part".

And that is right were this conversation is getting stuck - as you just illustrated for us here -- #826

I prefer to get to the points where Bible scholars actually differ.

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I think your assertion that "BOTH sides agree", is overstated. Obviously Moody did not believe that the 4th commandment of keeping the seventh day sabbath applied to him. But rather that Christians should set aside a day of rest devoted to God, and preferably that day be a Sunday.

tall73 said:

Would it be helpful to go through chapter 7, 13, 14, etc. so folks understand what you are referring to?

Then people can compare notes.

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That might be useful. I think may people don't understand the SDA view, that it is written from the Prophetic prespective. That a future time will come when there is widespread apostasy that God's people and the world will not be able to tell Good from Evil and who is loyal to
God and who is not. Sabbath is that way.

icedragon101 said:

That might be useful. I think may people don't understand the SDA view, that it is written from the Prophetic prespective. That a future time will come when there is widespread apostasy that God's people and the world will not be able to tell Good from Evil and who is loyal to
God and who is not. Sabbath is that way.

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It may be best to start a thread specifically on the mark of the beast from the Adventist perspective in the denomination specific section.

Then you can get folks who have checked out on this conversation to get involved. And you can go through all the key chapters methodically.

MMXX said:

This is informative. I've come to know the speaker, Steve Gregg, pretty well over the last 12 years or so. He's extremely serious about obedience.

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he is one of those guys with a radio program that I have come to respect more and more - not so much as a Bible scholar but someone who is willing to discuss his views with others.

MMXX said:

That was a pretty big snip Bob. Is the rest of what I said something you want to avoid replying to?

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I like details - when you skim over the details I pointed out in that post -- details that are in some cases just a matter of public record - you are getting to a dog-chase-tail result because the easy details are being ignored.

MMXX said:

I think your assertion that "BOTH sides agree", is overstated. Obviously Moody did not believe that the 4th commandment of keeping the seventh day sabbath applied to him.

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Another "skim past"??

1. Obviously Moody agreed that the Bible Sabbath of the seventh day - began for mankind in Eden as do the Confession of Faith quoted here - so "yes" BOTH sides agree on that point you just skimmed past. Were we simply "not supposed to notice"??

2. Moody also agrees that ALL TEN are written on the heart and STILL apply today - so "yes" BOTH sides agree on that point you just skimmed past.

3. As for "Moody himself" -- he stated he keeps Saturday as the Sabbath as I already showed you.

So while skimming past all the easy parts - you are getting to "circle back" and challenge them while also redirecting to other details where in fact "all do not agree".

However even your own Venn diagram post shoots your own method in the foot - because the intersecting part "still exists" even when other areas do not intersect. You are diagramatically showing the common ground element is absolutely factually true - even while giving your "overstated" comment as if it did not exist!!..

How in the world are we suppose to have "Missed that"??

BobRyan said:

1. The New Covenant is found in Jer 31:31-34 and it is not possible to suppose that in the OT those New Covenant saints were ignoring God's Commandments as if "that is a good thing".

2. The New Covenant of Jer 31 is unchanged verbatim in the NT - Heb 8:6-12.. no change.

3. The New Covenant says it is writing the LAW of God "on heart and mind" means that the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers is the Law written on heart and mind under the Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:6-12 "New Covenant".

4. Gal 1:6-9 says there is - and has been - only ONE Gospel - and "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8. -- so the NEW Covenant of Jer 31:31-34 IS that Gospel Covenant. The one and only way of salvation. The one and only Gospel

5. And on "the TEN Written on the heart" and/or "the TEN Given to mankind in EDEN" detail Bible scholars in almost all denominations agree. As we saw here - - #761 and here #827

Since you already saw all the confession of faith making that same point and D.L. Moody making that same point (and obviously Ex 20:11 makes that case in pointing directly to Gen 2:1-3) -- how "odd" it now appears that you are spinning it as if I am the source or the one promoting it for Bible scholars in almost all denominations.

details matter even when ignored.

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You're going have to quote where Moody said Adam and Eve kept the sabbath per the 4th commandment in Exodus 20:11. Genesis 2:1-3 says that God rested. It doesn't say that anyone else rested that day, or that God told anyone to rest on the seventh day, until Exodus 20:11. Far reaching extrapolation isn't sound theology.