Forgiveness

jameshjr · Jul 26, 2021

On Friday I was deceived by my co-workers. It is too long a story and you’d need to know details about the company I work for to understand it:

But the crux is: three of my co-workers plotted between them to lie about being in traffic so that we did not have to load a van, so that they could go home early. ( I know they lied because after being told they were over an hour away, I remained at work to sort some racking out for my boss and one of them arrived back twenty minutes later (after dropping another co-worker back at his house).

This made me very angry. When he came in to drop the van key in the warehouse, he said hello and all I could say was “yep” because I was trying to control myself.

Then it was the weekend and I forgot about it, until Sunday evening, and I knew I was going to see them and was worried over how to behave.

Today I have been unfriendly (not rude) and distant with the one co-worker (whom dropped the key off on Friday) whom I have been with.

I have been feeling guilty over my unfriendliness but after listening to some sermons on the subject and doing some thinking I have concluded that I shouldn’t feel guilty about being cold and distant with people whom continually hurt me (that is not to say that I will fight it, if the spirit moves me to be friendly with them).

I also concluded that forgiveness means to not seek to collect a ‘debt of pain’ that I feel they owe me such as by shouting at them, being angry with them, insulting them, slandering them, gossiping about them etc. etc.

So I guess I am asking if my conclusions are wrong, and if so how and why. Does forgiveness require us to be warm and friendly with everyone (even our enemies)?

Is it okay to be cold and distant with people whom have and will harm us again?

As always, I would appreciate your thoughts as they are always helpful to me.

God bless and best wishes,

James.

Albion · Jul 26, 2021

I think you're right about about not seeking that "debt of pain." It wouldn't accomplish anything good, either. But I'm not sure that being distant does much, unless you don't want to be tempted by engaging with them into lashing out. You've already been cool towards the one fellow, so that's probably as much as you'd want to do in any case. Any more, and they'll feel that you are the wrongdoer or the problem.

P.S. This doesn't mean that you should never, in any way, bring it up to them that you know what they did and that you disapprove. I have no recommendation about how to do that, though.

dqhall · Jul 26, 2021

jameshjr said:
On Friday I was deceived by my co-workers. It is too long a story and you’d need to know details about the company I work for to understand it:

But the crux is: three of my co-workers plotted between them to lie about being in traffic so that we did not have to load a van, so that they could go home early. ( I know they lied because after being told they were over an hour away, I remained at work to sort some racking out for my boss and one of them arrived back twenty minutes later (after dropping another co-worker back at his house).

This made me very angry. When he came in to drop the van key in the warehouse, he said hello and all I could say was “yep” because I was trying to control myself.

Then it was the weekend and I forgot about it, until Sunday evening, and I knew I was going to see them and was worried over how to behave.

Today I have been unfriendly (not rude) and distant with the one co-worker (whom dropped the key off on Friday) whom I have been with.

I have been feeling guilty over my unfriendliness but after listening to some sermons on the subject and doing some thinking I have concluded that I shouldn’t feel guilty about being cold and distant with people whom continually hurt me (that is not to say that I will fight it, if the spirit moves me to be friendly with them).

I also concluded that forgiveness means to not seek to collect a ‘debt of pain’ that I feel they owe me such as by shouting at them, being angry with them, insulting them, slandering them, gossiping about them etc. etc.

So I guess I am asking if my conclusions are wrong, and if so how and why. Does forgiveness require us to be warm and friendly with everyone (even our enemies)?

Is it okay to be cold and distant with people whom have and will harm us again?

As always, I would appreciate your thoughts as they are always helpful to me.

God bless and best wishes,

James.

I used to be upset about people calling in sick to do other things. I tried to work hard. In one business of about 20 there were only two who got a perfect attendance award for the year. I was one of the two.

Some years later I was trying to do more physical work after my full time job and injured my back. I retired early. A few years ago I did some Habitat for Humanity volunteer home building work, but reinjured my back and spent time in bed to recover.

Today I do not consider myself superior to people who made excuses to get out of work. God convicted me of my sin of being angry at other’s shortcomings. Sometimes when I start to think I am good, God might remind me of another sin I did within the last year to lessen my conceit.

Other’s work habits are none of my business. Their boss may fire them if their errors become too grievous. It is difficult to find perfect employees, so they had to hire imperfect ones.

jameshjr · Jul 26, 2021

Albion said:
I think you're right about about not seeking that "debt of pain." It wouldn't accomplish anything good, either. But I'm not sure that being distant does much, unless you don't want to be tempted by engaging with them into lashing out. You've already been cool towards the one fellow, so that's probably as much as you'd want to do in any case. Any more, and they'll feel that you are the wrongdoer or the problem.

P.S. This doesn't mean that you should never, in any way, bring it up to them that you know what they did and that you disapprove. I have no recommendation about how to do that, though.

Hello Albion, thank you for the message.

I got that (debt of pain idea) from a sermon about forgiveness on spotify. He argued it is why Jesus uses the debtor theme in his unforgiving servant parable (Matthew 18:21-35), only we want pain from the other person instead of money ( i can find it again and try and link it, if you'd like?)

I am only distant because it is how i feel around them. they are like a gang and i am not a member. i remain distant because more bad than good comes of me engaging with them (when they are together at least).

I will bring it up to them if the right moment comes up. im going to try not to mention it just to 'get even' if you know what i mean.

jameshjr · Jul 26, 2021

dqhall said:
I used to be upset about people calling in sick to do other things. I tried to work hard. In one business of about 20 there were only two who got a perfect attendance award for the year. I was one of the two.

Some years later I was trying to do more physical work after my full time job and injured my back. I retired early. A few years ago I did some Habitat for Humanity volunteer home building work, but reinjured my back and spent time in bed to recover.

Today I do not consider myself superior to people who made excuses to get out of work. God convicted me of my sin of being angry at other’s shortcomings. Sometimes when I start to think I am good, God might remind me of another sin I did within the last year to lessen my conceit.

Other’s work habits are none of my business. Their boss may fire them if their errors become too grievous. It is difficult to find perfect employees, so they had to hire imperfect ones.

Hello dqhall, thank you for the message.

I take your point on board. Like i said to Albion, the three of them are like a gang and i often feel persecuted by them, and i guess it was freeing to learn that in order to forgive them, i dont need to be friends with them (as i was failing at it).

I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble with your back and i will pray for you over this. also, the home building work sounds great; it's a shame we dont do anything like that here in the uk (at least that i know of).

God bless.

dqhall · Jul 26, 2021

jameshjr said:
Hello dqhall, thank you for the message.

I take your point on board. Like i said to Albion, the three of them are like a gang and i often feel persecuted by them, and i guess it was freeing to learn that in order to forgive them, i dont need to be friends with them (as i was failing at it).

I am sorry to hear that you are still having trouble with your back and i will pray for you over this. also, the home building work sounds great; it's a shame we dont do anything like that here in the uk (at least that i know of).

God bless.

My back is pain free after stretching exercises. Occasional relapses. I can no longer lift 20 kgs. for fear of slipping my disk. God has blessed me financially.

It is better to forgive an offense than to seek judgement against them, that way you might not be judged. Patience endures. You might consider seeking a better job.

timf · Jul 27, 2021

Revenge is something God reserves to himself (Rom 12:19)

It can be difficult to be a Christian and have coworkers who are not. Sometimes self-deprecation can work if done with humor. The key is to set clear boundaries.

If they are rule breakers you can say that you won't turn them in, but you won't lie for them either.

jameshjr · Jul 28, 2021

dqhall said:
My back is pain free after stretching exercises. Occasional relapses. I can no longer lift 20 kgs. for fear of slipping my disk. God has blessed me financially.

It is better to forgive an offense than to seek judgement against them, that way you might not be judged. Patience endures. You might consider seeking a better job.

I am glad to hear that your back is pain free, and that you are financially blessed.

I do try to forgive and i do try to remember that judgment is not for me to make. i may have to do that.

thanks again,

James.

jameshjr · Jul 28, 2021

timf said:
Revenge is something God reserves to himself (Rom 12:19)

It can be difficult to be a Christian and have coworkers who are not. Sometimes self-deprecation can work if done with humor. The key is to set clear boundaries.

If they are rule breakers you can say that you won't turn them in, but you won't lie for them either.

Hello timf, thank you for the message.

i agree, it is difficult to work with non- Christians. i can be self- deprecating but i will not be foolish (as much as i can help). i need to improve with setting boundaries and i think being cooler with the young lad was a step in that direction.

i live by those words that i will not lie for someone but will not go out of my way to tell others about it.

Thanks again,

James.

SANTOSO · Jul 28, 2021

jameshjr said:
On Friday I was deceived by my co-workers. It is too long a story and you’d need to know details about the company I work for to understand it:

But the crux is: three of my co-workers plotted between them to lie about being in traffic so that we did not have to load a van, so that they could go home early. ( I know they lied because after being told they were over an hour away, I remained at work to sort some racking out for my boss and one of them arrived back twenty minutes later (after dropping another co-worker back at his house).

This made me very angry. When he came in to drop the van key in the warehouse, he said hello and all I could say was “yep” because I was trying to control myself.

Then it was the weekend and I forgot about it, until Sunday evening, and I knew I was going to see them and was worried over how to behave.

Today I have been unfriendly (not rude) and distant with the one co-worker (whom dropped the key off on Friday) whom I have been with.

I have been feeling guilty over my unfriendliness but after listening to some sermons on the subject and doing some thinking I have concluded that I shouldn’t feel guilty about being cold and distant with people whom continually hurt me (that is not to say that I will fight it, if the spirit moves me to be friendly with them).

I also concluded that forgiveness means to not seek to collect a ‘debt of pain’ that I feel they owe me such as by shouting at them, being angry with them, insulting them, slandering them, gossiping about them etc. etc.

So I guess I am asking if my conclusions are wrong, and if so how and why. Does forgiveness require us to be warm and friendly with everyone (even our enemies)?

Is it okay to be cold and distant with people whom have and will harm us again?

As always, I would appreciate your thoughts as they are always helpful to me.

God bless and best wishes,

James.

Dear one,
It is good to consider about forgiveness, as what you are doing now by discussing about this.

Dear one,
It is understandable what co-workers have done by plotting, lying and deceiving are wrong. It is right for you to hate vileness that they have done. So it is right for you to be frustrated by this, for you are suffering for what was right. Therefore, dear one, bear this burden.

But you must also consider this :

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. -Romans 14:4

So dear one, you have to restrain passing judgement for your co-workers, you can consider as the servant of another. So when you pass judgement ( like being angry with them, insulting, slandering and gossiping them ), in this matter you have suffered for what was wrong.

So dear one, this is what you should consider :
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. -Galatians 6:1

Dear one, you should approach them in a spirit of gentleness despite what they have done wrong, hurt you and the company. Dear one, ask the Lord to give the strength to bear this burden that you are bearing and pray for them that you may find grace of repentance and that they sin no more. And trust the love of Christ that you can be compassionate to them who suffer for what was wrong and thus you fulfill the law of Christ.

So if you have passed judgement to them, dear one, be reconciled to them, say to them that you have shared for what was wrong by passing judgement and asked for their forgiveness. Ask them whether they be willing to pray together, that you and them may receive the grace of repentance from God the Father. In this Männer, you bring delights to God by bringing sinners to repentance.

Dear one, if there remain any thought that the enemy will bring your remembrance of this event. Say this in faith:

Abba, thank you for granting me the strength to release forgiveness to anyone who wronged me. Now, I release forgiveness to those who wronged me. Abba, I believe that I have met your condition to be forgiven. Abba, I believe now I stand in Your steadfast love, that is in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Dear one, by this, you stand justified by faith and you have peace with God the Father through Christ. So dear one, now you have accessed by faith in the grace of God that you stand and that God hears your prayers and supplications.

To God be all glory. Amen.

Note for consideration:
Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, -2 Corinthians 2:10
so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs. -2 Corinthians 2:11

jameshjr · Jul 29, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear one,
It is good to consider about forgiveness, as what you are doing now by discussing about this.

Dear one,
It is understandable what co-workers have done by plotting, lying and deceiving are wrong. It is right for you to hate vileness that they have done. So it is right for you to be frustrated by this, for you are suffering for what was right. Therefore, dear one, bear this burden.

But you must also consider this :

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. -Romans 14:4

So dear one, you have to restrain passing judgement for your co-workers, you can consider as the servant of another. So when you pass judgement ( like being angry with them, insulting, slandering and gossiping them ), in this matter you have suffered for what was wrong.

So dear one, this is what you should consider :
Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. -Galatians 6:1

Dear one, you should approach them in a spirit of gentleness despite what they have done wrong, hurt you and the company. Dear one, ask the Lord to give the strength to bear this burden that you are bearing and pray for them that you may find grace of repentance and that they sin no more. And trust the love of Christ that you can be compassionate to them who suffer for what was wrong and thus you fulfill the law of Christ.

So if you have passed judgement to them, dear one, be reconciled to them, say to them that you have shared for what was wrong by passing judgement and asked for their forgiveness. Ask them whether they be willing to pray together, that you and them may receive the grace of repentance from God the Father. In this Männer, you bring delights to God by bringing sinners to repentance.

Dear one, if there remain any thought that the enemy will bring your remembrance of this event. Say this in faith:

Abba, thank you for granting me the strength to release forgiveness to anyone who wronged me. Now, I release forgiveness to those who wronged me. Abba, I believe that I have met your condition to be forgiven. Abba, I believe now I stand in Your steadfast love, that is in Christ Jesus. Amen.

Dear one, by this, you stand justified by faith and you have peace with God the Father through Christ. So dear one, now you have accessed by faith in the grace of God that you stand and that God hears your prayers and supplications.

To God be all glory. Amen.

Note for consideration:
Anyone whom you forgive, I also forgive. Indeed, what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ, -2 Corinthians 2:10
so that we would not be outwitted by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his designs. -2 Corinthians 2:11

Hello Santoso, thank you for the message, and sorry for the delay in my response.

There was a lot to take in, and i thank you for the depth of your message.

Though this event upset me at first, i feel as though i have learned about forgiveness from it and for this i am thankful (He turns all things to the good). Forgiveness is almost like a reset button with people, and we should/can come to people with a spirit of gentleness.

I will take your advice and pray for them over this tonight and i do already pray to God to help them to turn to Him (but your will be done).

As to your point on judgement, i have noticed from this event (and this thread) that i do judge others (much more than i thought i did).

Thank you again for the message,

May God bless and keep you always,

James.

SANTOSO · Jul 30, 2021

Dear one,
I am delighted the message has brought you near the Father’s love through Christ.

Dear one, if we consider carefully the parable of unforgiving servant in Matthew 18:21-35 that our Lord have shared with us, at the end of the message, He said:

““So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:35‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

Dear one, our Lord has told that if we are unforgiving to our brothers, this concerns our Heavenly Father.

Likewise, we also heard:
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, -Matthew 6:14
but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. -Matthew 6:15

Dear one, there are times that thoughts come to our minds, as we grew older that we have come to perceive in younger years that we have said wrongly and done things in ignorance; that is that we didn’t know what we were doing.

Dear one,
Aren’t grateful for the grace of God, that if now we forgive others their trespasses, our Heavenly Father also forgives our trespasses?
Dear one, let us be grateful.

So dear one, don’t live in guilt, every time thoughts that come to our minds that we have done, dear one, remember that we can abide in our Heavenly Father’s grace by releasing forgiveness to anyone who wronged us.
Why?
Dear one, we have met our Lord’s condition to be forgiven for all our trespass by every time we release forgiveness to those who wronged us.

Dear one, not only we met the condition,we acknowledge that God practice His steadfast love, justice and righteousness in our lives. This bring great delights to our Heavenly Father.

Dear one, it may seem easy to release forgiveness to anyone who wronged us till we hear what our Lord said:

"But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, -Luke 6:27
bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. -Luke 6:28

Dear one, would it be easy to do good to those who hate you ? Would it be easy to pray to those who mistreated or abused you ?
Wouldn’t we be appalled to what our Lord said ? Yes, we understand that our Lord not only talked but He has walked what He said when He was crucified.

Dear one, are we not those heard Him said this to love your enemies, do good to those who hate you ? Yes, we are.
Dear one, though we are willing, we don’t have the strength to do what He told us to do. So dear one, this is what we have heard:

“O God, You have taught me from my youth; And to this day I declare Your wondrous works.
Now also when I am old and grayheaded, O God, do not forsake me,
Until I declare Your strength to this generation,
Your power to everyone who is to come.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭71:17-18‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

So dear one, are we not in this generation, the one who is to come? Yes, we are, dear ones.

Didn’t the Son of David, declare His Strength to our generation? He did, dear ones.

This is what our Lord Himself said:
Then he said to them, "These are my words that I spoke to you while I was still with you, that everything written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." -Luke 24:44

Likewise, this is also written in the psalms:
to him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens; behold, he sends out his voice, his mighty voice. -Psalms 68:33
Awesome is God from his sanctuary; the God of Israel'he is the one who gives power and strength to his people. Blessed be God! -Psalms 68:35

So dear one, have you considered why God send His voice, a mighty voice, that He is the one who gives power and strength to His people?

Dear one, we are His people whom our Heavenly Father spoke to us through Christ His Son, that we are whom He gives power through His Holy Spirit and gives us the strength to love one another, and abide in His commandments.

So dear one, when we bear one another’s burdens, pains, afflictions and sufferings ! Let us humble ourselves and seek His grace that strengthen us.
For this is what we have heard:
You then, my child, be strengthened by the grace that is in Christ Jesus, -2 Timothy 2:1

Dear one, let us seek the Lord’s strength that we may bear with those who hate, mistreated, and upset us.

For we have heard:
Seek the LORD and his strength; seek his presence continually! -Psalms 105:4

Dear one, are you seeking to find His strength?

Dear one, wait for the Lord’s steadfast love and love Him with your whole heart, soul and strength and you will be strengthen to do His will.

To God be all glory and thanksgiving. Amen

Jeffwhosoever · Jul 31, 2021

You are right to be angry about lying. Satan is the father of lies, and when he speaks that is his natural language. There is no good in him.

Feels of payback or vengeance don't do a thing for the person you blame, but it eats you up inside as you wait and wait for justice to be done. God has a plan for dealing with sin including lying. Trust the Lord to one day hold them accountable and forgive them and move on, but don't become a part of this group of liars and protect yourself from guilt by association. Truth is so much more powerful than lies, and lies are almost always found out and come back on the liar. Trust that the Lord is fully capable of administering divine judgement but be patient for it to occur. The Lord is sovereign over all of creation so it will be handled in a manner that is righteous and just.

jameshjr · Jul 31, 2021

SANTOSO said:
Dear one,
I am delighted the message has brought you near the Father’s love through Christ.

Santoso, thank you again for the message. I appreciate the detail you have gone into and the time it must have taken to write it.

Thank you again, and God bless.

jameshjr · Jul 31, 2021

Jeffwhosoever said:
You are right to be angry about lying. Satan is the father of lies, and when he speaks that is his natural language. There is no good in him.

Feels of payback or vengeance don't do a thing for the person you blame, but it eats you up inside as you wait and wait for justice to be done. God has a plan for dealing with sin including lying. Trust the Lord to one day hold them accountable and forgive them and move on, but don't become a part of this group of liars and protect yourself from guilt by association. Truth is so much more powerful than lies, and lies are almost always found out and come back on the liar. Trust that the Lord is fully capable of administering divine judgement but be patient for it to occur. The Lord is sovereign over all of creation so it will be handled in a manner that is righteous and just.

Hello Jeffwhosoever, thank you for the message.

I have been guilty of seeking judgement of others and for punishing them. i have learned more about forgiveness and it is helping me since the event i wrote about. i think that knowing and trusting that God will judge and punish those whom are not in Christ is helpful to remember. i do however hope and think that i will seek for them to be forgiven and turn to Christ, the longer i (try) to follow His teaching. As you say also, when people sin it does them more harm than they can ever do me, and i am starting to dee that.

Thank you again and God bless.

Psalm 27 · Jul 31, 2021

jameshjr said:
Is it okay to be cold and distant with people whom have and will harm us again?

Good point...Work colleagues are one thing, what about when it’s your own family?

Jeffwhosoever · Jul 31, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
Good point...Work colleagues are one thing, what about when it’s your own family?

That is a lot harder, because the relationship is permanent to some extent. Nonetheless, the same Lord is there for you regardless of whether the problem is with coworkers or with family. He can provide.

lastofall · Aug 1, 2021

We are most like God when we forgive, and it is God who sets the standard of defining forgiveness, saying, I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
As for our behavior toward those who are enemies of righteousness, we are to love them: therefore if our enemy hungers, give them something to eat; if they thirst, give them something to drink: we must needs care for them even as our neighbor and our own self.
But as for distance: we cannot be equally joined together with unbelievers, but must needs separate and come out from among them, so that we do not touch any unclean thing.

SeventhFisherofMen · Aug 1, 2021

jameshjr said:
On Friday I was deceived by my co-workers. It is too long a story and you’d need to know details about the company I work for to understand it:

But the crux is: three of my co-workers plotted between them to lie about being in traffic so that we did not have to load a van, so that they could go home early. ( I know they lied because after being told they were over an hour away, I remained at work to sort some racking out for my boss and one of them arrived back twenty minutes later (after dropping another co-worker back at his house).

This made me very angry. When he came in to drop the van key in the warehouse, he said hello and all I could say was “yep” because I was trying to control myself.

Then it was the weekend and I forgot about it, until Sunday evening, and I knew I was going to see them and was worried over how to behave.

Today I have been unfriendly (not rude) and distant with the one co-worker (whom dropped the key off on Friday) whom I have been with.

I have been feeling guilty over my unfriendliness but after listening to some sermons on the subject and doing some thinking I have concluded that I shouldn’t feel guilty about being cold and distant with people whom continually hurt me (that is not to say that I will fight it, if the spirit moves me to be friendly with them).

I also concluded that forgiveness means to not seek to collect a ‘debt of pain’ that I feel they owe me such as by shouting at them, being angry with them, insulting them, slandering them, gossiping about them etc. etc.

So I guess I am asking if my conclusions are wrong, and if so how and why. Does forgiveness require us to be warm and friendly with everyone (even our enemies)?

Is it okay to be cold and distant with people whom have and will harm us again?

As always, I would appreciate your thoughts as they are always helpful to me.

God bless and best wishes,

James.

@jameshjr All I can say is although it's definitely difficult to be in a work environment where people don't share or practice the same work ethic and morals you do as a Christian at the end of the day unless it's your job duty to reprimand them it's best to ignore them and not let the wrong they've done weigh you down. You don't have to be best buddies with them but you also don't have to be cold either.

I'm not necessarily saying that being cold is bitterness or unforgiveness but it may turn into that if left unchecked. Easy for me to sit here and type this but when we have to look at ourselves and actually let go of any negative emotions we have towards others it can even hurt to do so. Being honest with Jesus saying something like "This happened and this is how I feel and why I feel that way. Forgive me if this is wrong" can be extremely unburdening.

jameshjr · Aug 2, 2021

Psalm 27 said:
Good point...Work colleagues are one thing, what about when it’s your own family?

Hello Psalm 27, thank you for the message. I take your point, I think (unequal weights are detestable to the lord proverbs 20:23).

I am lucky and my family love me and do not actively try to do me harm (I think).

However as I write this I am reminded of Matthew 5:47.

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