Why do SDA preach

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

MMXX said:
Nowhere does he or anyone else say anything about sabbath-breaking. [

Why does the new testament need to talk about Sabbath breaking when all of Gods' people were all keeping Gods' 10 commandments and they already new about Sabbath breaking? The same as there is nothing said about breaking any of the other 10 commandments. Gods' people already knew that to break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments it was sin. You do know that in the days of Jesus and the disciples that their bible was the old covenant scriptures right? You seem to not be considering this so the consequences for breaking everyone of God's 10 commandments were all very well known to all of Gods' people at this time. Even in the new testament we are told that the purpose of God's 10 commandments (which includes Gods' 4th commandment) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11 and for those who reject the gift of Gods' dear son the penalty of sin (breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments) is death *Romans 6:23.

MMXX said:
John outright says that Jesus broke the sabbath; “Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” John 5:18. It seems obvious He didn't consider the sabbath binding any longer. Summed up in saying the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. The way I've seen SDA try making that say something it doesn't, has made my eyes roll. If I just had the NT at my disposal, I'd have no prompt whatsoever to keep the sabbath. Much less a command.

Goodness Brian you have just made my eyes roll, do you know what your claiming here? Your claiming that Jesus broke the Sabbath which according to the scriptures is sin *1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11. If you follow your interpretation of the scriptures through here then we are all lost. Why? because in order for Jesus to be God's sacrifice for the sins of the world he had to be without spot or blemish (no sin). The scriptures tell us that your interpretation of John 5:18 is not biblical here...

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

...................

Your mistake here is that you think Jesus sinned when the scriptures teach that it was the Scribes and the Pharisees that claimed Jesus sinned in the context you left out of the scripture you posted. Here lets add the context you left out and make sense of your interpretation of the scriptures that are in contradiction the scriptures already posted for you above.

John 5:5-24
[5], And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
[6], When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
[7], The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
[8], Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
[9], And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
[10], The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
[11], He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
[12], Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
[13], And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
[14], Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
[15], The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

[16], And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

[17], But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

[18], Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
[19], Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
[20], For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
[21], For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22], For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[23], That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24], Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

....................

Notice in the scriptures above it does not say that Jesus broke the Sabbath it says that the Jews accused him of breaking the Sabbath because he healed a cripple and told him to go home and sin no more. Now how can Jesus sin by breaking the Sabbath and go and tell someone else not to sin no more lest a worst thing happen to them? Does that make any sense? Jesus taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in Matthew 12:1-12. Therefore Jesus did not sin by breaking the Sabbath he taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath. It was the Jews who did not understand how to keep the Sabbath that accused Him of breaking the Sabbath. Are you saying that the Scribes and the Pharisees knew more about the Sabbath than the creator of the Sabbath Brian?

Sorry Brian God's Word disagrees with you here.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

tall73 said:
The new moon assembly which I posted texts regarding is not the same as the moon itself. I asked what was the new moon a shadow of, and what was its purpose. And you posted a text that talks about the purpose of the moon itself, rather than the new moon assembly. Gen 1:14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,

I have posted earlier text on the new moon being to determine the times and seasons from Genesis 1:14 and in determining the starting times of Gods' appointed times in Leviticus 23 as well as shown the new moon assemblies and animal sacrifices in Numbers 28 and elsewhere. Where did I post that the purpose of the new moon in determining God's appointed times and the new moon assemblies are the same? - I didn't. I posted they are not the same. So why you saying here they are not the same which is what I already posted and shared in the scriptures already? Perhaps you should go back and re-read through my posts to you.

tall73 said:
I posted texts that indicate the new moon was not just a way of telling time for the other feasts, but is its own entity, and an appointed time. Isa_1:13 Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations— I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly. 2Ki_4:23 And he said, “Why will you go to him today? It is neither new moon nor Sabbath.” She said, “All is well

See above, I am never said that the new moon was not an appointed time I have only posted scriptures from Numbers 28 showing that it was an appointed time. What is it in the new moon appointed times that is no more and was a shadow of things to come? - Animal sacrifices; bunt offering, sin offering, meat offering and drink offerings. *Numbers 28:11-15. What were these "there shadows of things to come? Sound familiar?

tall73 said:
And it had some element of sabbath-like rest: Amo_8:5 saying, “When will the new moon be over, that we may sell grain? And the Sabbath, that we may offer wheat for sale, that we may make the ephah small and the shekel great and deal deceitfully with false balances,

True but the New moons were never a Sabbath or the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment unless it fell on the same day as the "seventh day" of the week now was it?

tall73 said:
It is listed in a summary of the appointed times: Eze 45:17 It shall be the prince's duty to furnish the burnt offerings, grain offerings, and drink offerings, at the feasts, the new moons, and the Sabbaths, all the appointed times of the house of Israel. As did the Sabbath, which you acknowledge. But it was the weekly Sabbath, not just the annual that had them.

Agreed that the New moons are a part of the appointed times as well as the annual sabbaths in the feast days that included Gods' 4th commandment. It is not a true application to God's 4th commandment however as an appointed time because the appointed times were monthly and annual and Gods' 4th commandment is only included in Gods' appointed times (annual Feast days) because some of the Feasts went longer than seven days or depending on the yearly cycle could fall on any day of the week. The appointed times or the application to these times to the Hebrew words, מִקְרָא קֹדֶשׁ; to holy convocations is to that calling out to a public assembly to a sacred place. In reference to the Sabbath (7th day) this was only applied to the annual Feast days during the times of the annual Feasts and never to the weekly "seventh day" Sabbaths of God's 4th commandment outside of the appointed Feast times. So your claims here are not biblical.

tall73 said:
You acknowledge it is true that it had its own sacrifices and convocations. That is because it was itself and appointed time. Saying it is a clock does not explain why that was or how it was a shadow.

You were shown from the scriptures that the new moons were both to show Gods appointed times and was an appointed time. The fact that it was an appointed time of animal sacrifices does not rule out it's purpose as shown already through scripture that the purpose of the new moons was also to determine the annual Feast days or God's appointed times.

tall73 said:
Col. 2 is a similar listing of times as Ezekiel 45. And all the things in Col. are called shadows. Yet in Ezekiel 45 the weekly Sabbath is included, as the summary statement is spelled out by the context, and the weekly Sabbath, six working days, then the Sabbath, is included.

This is not true but allow me to explain why from the scriptures. The reference to both Colossians 2:16 and also to Ezekiel 45:17 is to the meat and drink offerings, the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) with the context and application to the Feast days not God's 4th commandment outside of the annual Feast days. Colossians 2:17 says that these are all shadows fulfilled in the body of Christ. Tell me how can God's 4th commandment be a shadow of anything when it is a "memorial" commandment that points backwards to the finished work of creation and not forward to things to come? I do not think you have thought this through very well. Don't forget that Gods "seventh day" Sabbath was made outside of sin and all the shadow laws given in God's plan of salvation because there was no sin when God made the "seventh day" Sabbath of creation. Therefore it is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" of anything because it points backwards to the finished work of creation when there was no sin and no shadow laws pointing to Jesus and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. Can you see your mistake here?

tall73 said:
There were moral laws inside and outside of the ten commandments. And there were ceremonial laws in and out of the ten commandments. The Sabbath is a ceremonial law.

All of God's 10 commandments (including God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath of creation) are all moral laws. That is they give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. They are our duty of moral right doing and love to God (first four commandments) and our moral right doing of love to our neighbor (second six commandments) and if we break anyone of them according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin (James 2:10-11). God's 4th commandment therefore is not a ceremonial law as it is a "memorial" that points backwards to the finished works or creation before all sin where God commands us to "Remember" *Exodus 20:8 the Sabbath day to keep it holy. It is our duty of love to God and therefore is moral right doing and how we love God.

At the same time I do agree that there were ceremonial "shadow" sabbaths in the annual Feast days. These however were not the same as Gods' 4th commandment that is also outside of the covenant Feast days and were simply annual sabbaths that were linked directly to the annual Feast days and not to a day outside of the annual Feasts. The annual ceremonial Sabbaths could call on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle unlike God's 4th commandment that was simply every seventh day as a memorial of creation and the annual ceremonial sabbaths were only linked to the annual Feast days. These annual shadow sabbaths connected to the Feast days included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36. Unlike God's 4th commandment that is linked only to the "seventh day" of the week. These ceremonial sabbaths are linked directly to the Feast days and can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle.

As posted earlier it is impossible that Colossians 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th commandment as God's 4th commandment is both inside and outside of the annual Feast days. Gods' 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments that gives us the knowledge of moral right doing and moral wrong doing. The context to Colossians 2:16 is not to God's 4th commandment but to the meat and drink offering, the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the annual Feast days. As posted earlier it is impossible for Gods' 10 commandments to be a shadow of anything because it is a part of the "finished work of creation" *Genesis 2:1-3. It point backwards to the finished work of creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) not forwards to things to come (Colossians 2:17). There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation for unfallen man when the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. Gods 4th commandment points backwards because it is a memorial of the finished work of creation and the celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth...

You seem to be confused in relation to God’s 10 commandments not being all moral laws as an expression of love to God and love to man. Your mixing up the “shadow laws” of the Mosaic book of the old covenant with God’s eternal law (10 commandments) that give us a knowledge of good and evil (moral right doing and moral wrong doing)

tall73 said:
Oh I have noted it! But it goes on to spell out the elements and includes the weekly Sabbath:
Eze 46:1 “Thus says the Lord GOD: The gate of the inner court that faces east shall be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day it shall be opened, and on the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 The prince shall enter by the vestibule of the gate from outside, and shall take his stand by the post of the gate. The priests shall offer his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate. Then he shall go out, but the gate shall not be shut until evening.
Eze 46:3 The people of the land shall bow down at the entrance of that gate before the LORD on the Sabbaths and on the new moons.
Eze 46:4 The burnt offering that the prince offers to the LORD on the Sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish and a ram without blemish.

Well that is great but how does the above help your argument? It doesn't. No one has argued that God's 4th commandment was not a part of the annual Holy convocations (calling out to private assemblies to a sacred place). If you remember I have already posted Leviticus 23 showing this earlier. Once again Ezekiel 45:17 just like Colossians 2:16 the context here is to the burnt offerings, the meat and drink offerings, the new moon and the sabbaths (plural once again) in the annual Feast days. This therefore does not help your argument. Your mixing up God's eternal law from His 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken with the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days which where shadows of things to come *Colossians 2:17.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

tall73 said:
Jesus didn't speak just of the ten. In fact He said the whole law and prophets hung on the two. And there were moral laws outside the ten.

Well I have never said anywhere that I am aware of that Jesus spoke only of the 10 commandments. So your claim is not really relevant here. He did directly speak of the 10 commandments however. Matthew 22:36-40 is Jesus answering a question saying

Matthew 22:36-40
[36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

Jesus is actually quoting from old testament scriptures here found in Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. So the context here that we love God with all of out heart and mind and our neighbor as our self is to all the commandments that deal with how we love God and our fellow man. For example Paul demonstrates this same thought in Romans 13:8-12 where he shows that love to our fellow man is expressed in obedience to those laws in God's 10 commandments that are to do with how we love our neighbor. Paul also states here that loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up the laws six commandments of God's 10 commandments.

Romans 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
[9], For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is BRIEFLY SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

So to try and argue here that we can love God or our our neighbor as our self without being obedience to God's 10 commandments is simply unbiblical because love to God and man is expressed as Paul shows here in obedience to God's 10 commandments. If we are disobedient to God's 10 commandments it is only showing that we do not love God or our fellow man. So when Jesus is saying on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets he is saying that we love God and our fellow man by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says. This of course come back to God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and one of those commandments that show our duty of how we love God with all of our heart and soul and mind. So to try and argue the above is not relevant to Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is as it is one of the commandments that show us our duty of love to God. All your posting here once more is a distraction as no one has argued anywhere that we are not to believe and follow every word of God.

tall73 said:
And there was a ceremonial law in the ten, a sign. It is in addition to the laws by which one lives:
Eze 20:11 I gave them my statutes and made known to them my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live.
Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
Eze 20:13 But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness. They did not walk in my statutes but rejected my rules, by which, if a person does them, he shall live; and my Sabbaths they greatly profaned.

This is repetition already addressed through the scriptures already provided the previous posts showing the difference between the annual shadow sabbaths in the annual Feast days and God's 4th commandment that is mainly outside of the Feast days that point backwards not forwards to things to come. As posted somewhere else to you the "addition" in Ezekiel 20:11-13 is that the Sabbath was not only only of Gods 10 commandments but it was also a sign to God's people that we worship the only true God of creation and it is our God who sanctifies us.

Ezekiel 20:11-13
[11], AND I GAVE THEM MY STATUTES, AND SHOWED THEM MY JUDGMENTS, WHICH IF A MAN DO, HE SHALL EVEN LIVE IN THEM.
[12], MOREOVER (Further more; continuing from what was stated in v11) ALSO I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN BETWEEN ME AND THEM, THAT THEY MIGHT KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM (another reason the Sabbath was given to God’s people).
[13], But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and my sabbaths they greatly polluted: then I said, I would pour out my fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

tall73 said:
With Israel.
Exo 31:12 And the LORD said to Moses,
Exo 31:13 “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

According to the scriptures Gods' Israel is no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are now born of the Spirit through faith in the promise..

Romans 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.

So God's Israel today who God has given His Word are simply all those who believe and follow His Word as we are all one in Christ and a true Jew is one that has been changed inwardly as part of Gods' new covenant promise...

Romans 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Galatians 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.

Colossians 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.

Romans 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.

Therefore if we are not a part of Gods' Israel we have no part in Gods' new covenant promise which is to God's Israel who today are all those who believe and follow Gods' Word...

The New Covenant is for God's Israel...

Ezekiel 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.

and again...

Jeremiah 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Paul proclaims it here...

HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

...............

SUMMARY: So God's ISRAEL in the new covenant now is simply all those who believe and follow God's Word. Therefore your claims here that the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment or anyone of God's 10 commandments or Gods' Word being only for Gods' Israel is true but God's ISRAEL are no longer those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are now born of the Spirit through faith in the promise who are all those who believe and follow God's Word. This of course demonstrates once again that the Sabbath being an everlasting covenant to Gods' ISRAEL (believers) as shown in Exodus 31:17 and proven in Isaiah 66:22-23 in the new earth is still applicable for all of God's Israel today who are defined simply in the scriptures are all those who believe and follow God's Word.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

tall73 said:
And you are picky on which forever ceremonial appointed times with sacrifices given to Israel you are concerned about.
Lev 23:14 And you shall eat neither bread nor grain parched or fresh until this same day, until you have brought the offering of your God: it is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
Lev 23:21 And you shall make a proclamation on the same day. You shall hold a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work. It is a statute forever in all your dwelling places throughout your generations.
Lev 23:31 You shall not do any work. It is a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwelling places.
Lev 23:41 You shall celebrate it as a feast to the LORD for seven days in the year. It is a statute forever throughout your generations; you shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Paul on the other hand was not. He was going back to Jerusalem for Pentecost. He also agreed to the plan from James to show he kept the law, as an Israelite. But he didn't require any of that for gentile believers, and neither did James in Acts 21.

No not at all but let me explain why. I have never argued the Mosaic shadow laws for the remission of sins including the annual Feast days are abolished. They are now fulfilled and continued in Christ to who they pointed to and continued in Christ and his work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *See Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13: Hebrews 9:1-28 and Hebrews 10:1-22. You’re mixing up the shadow laws of things to come and that are fulfilled and continued in Christ work and ministration on our behalf with God’s eternal law that gives us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172, who according to James if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. This of course includes Gods’ 4th commandment which is one of Gods’ 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is. Paul became all things to all people so that he might win them to Christ. You seem to make arguments no one is making in a lot of your posts.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

tall73 said:
The ten commandments are not the only commandments. Jesus said none of them are passing away. And He included ones outside of the ten in that discussion (vows, divorce, etc.).

Strawman? Where did I ever post to you that Gods 10 commandments are the only commandments in the bible? Most of the other commandments in the bible however are supplementary to Gods' 10 commandments expanding on them in one way or another while many others from the Mosiac book of the law are "shadow laws" fulfilled and continued in Christ and His ministration on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (e.g. Levitical Priesthood, the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices and offerings; the ceremonial Sanctuary laws of the Priesthood; circumcision and the appointed annual Feast days). In the new covenant many of these laws are now fulfilled and continued in Christ based on better promises as shown in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

tall73 said:
The text in James is an example of this same thing. James was not speaking only of the ten. The section starts in verse 1 where he warns against partiality.
Jas 2:1 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory.
Jas 2:2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in,
Jas 2:3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,”
Jas 2:4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Actually your wrong here but allow me to show why I say that from the scriptures. James 2:1-7
is showing that if we have partiality to persons giving the example of favoring the rich over the poor and not treating all people the same and loving all people in the same manner, it is like showing partiality in the 10 commandments (he quotes them in James 2:10-11) then we would be breaking Gods law. Other words if you show partiality to not murdering someone but commit adultery you stand before God guilty of breaking the whole law. The explanation given from James 2:8-12 is speaking specifically of God’s 10 commandments as those commandments of the 10 that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. This was already touched on in an earlier post but let's touch on it again. As shown through the scriptures shared with you earlier, love is not separate from Gods law (10 commandments) it is expressed in obedience to it and is how we love God (Commandments 1-4) and how we love our fellow man (Commandments 5-10) showing we are believing and following Gods’ Word. This is why Jesus says on these two commandments of love to God and love to our neighbor hang all the law and the prophets. Love does not abolish Gods’ law (10 commandments) it obeys God’s law from the heart and is how Gods’ love is expressed through obedience to Gods’ law (10 commandments) in the new covenant being written on the heart by God as we have faith in Gods’ Word. Paul states very clearly that the commandment to loving our neighbor as our self is simply summing up those commandments in the 10 commandments that are our duty of love to our fellow man in Romans 13:8-9 and being obedient to them by faith that works by love. Therefore love fulfills Gods’ law and is obedient to God’s law. It does not break Gods’ law. If we break Gods’ law (anyone of God’s 10 commandments) or do not believe and follow Gods’ Word according to the scriptures we are not showing love to God or our fellow man.

tall73 said:
Here he refers to warnings against partiality in the law, and the warnings given to judges: Deu 16:18 “You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. Deu 16:19 You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Deu 16:20 Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

Actually, I do not get that out of James 2:1-7 whatsoever. Deuteronomy 16:18-20 is talking about Israel of the old covenant appointing judges to judge the people and not showing partiality in judgement of the Hebrew laws. James is not talking about appointing judges but showing partiality between the rich and the poor and what it means to love our neighbor as our self.

tall73 said:
Lev 19:15 “You shall do no injustice in court. You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor. The latter is in connection with one of the two great commandments, as it continues to talk about how to treat your neighbor and concludes with: Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD. James then references this great commandment, before referencing the ten, and in connection with the statement you quoted:

Agreed there are similarities in Leviticus 19 though as shown earlier Paul in Romans 13:8-10 and elsewhere in the new testament scriptures show that Leviticus 19:18 as well as Deuteronomy 6:5 is simply summarizing God’s 10 commandments as our duty of love to both God and our neighbor. Paul once again showing that loving our neighbor as ourself is simply being obedient from to those commmandments in God’s 10 commmandments (5-10) that show us how or what it means to love our fellow man. As posted earlier love is expressed in obedience to Gods’ law not by breaking God’s law and this is what James is also talking about by showing partiality to the poor and the rich and loving our neighbor as ourself.

tall73 said:
Jas 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well.
Jas 2:9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. He notes that partiality is violating the law. And he appeals to the law to love your neighbor. They are transgressors of the law if they break this. But this goes beyond the ten.

Actually no that is not true at all and this has been shown why from the scriptures provided throught this post already and on the other posts and scriptuers already provided. As shown earlier loving God with all of our heart and mind and our neighbor as ourself is simple summing up those of God’s 10 commmandments that express how we love God and those of Gods’ 10 commandments that show how we love our neighbor. Love is expressed through obedience to Gods’ law not by breaking God’s law. This is what Jesus is talking about when he says “on these two great commandments of love to God and love to man hang all the law and the prophets. That is all those laws that show us how to love God and our fellow man. Paul here is shows us in Romans 13:9 that loving our neighbore as ourselves is simply summing up those of Gods’ 10 commandments that are to do with how we love our fellow man in God’s 10 commandments. Of course any supplementary laws connected with Gods’ 10 commandments and how we love our fellow man are also applicable no one has argued that they are not.

Romans 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
[9], For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is BRIEFLY SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

So to try and argue here that we can love God or our neighbor as our self without being obedience to God's 10 commandments is simply unbiblical because love to God and man is expressed as Paul shows here in obedience to God's 10 commandments. If we are disobedient to God's 10 commandments it is only showing us that we do not love God or our fellow man. So when Jesus is saying on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets he is saying that we love God and our fellow man by believing and obeying what Gods' Word says. This of course come back to God's 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 and one of those commandments that show our duty of how we love God with all of our heart and soul and mind. So to try and argue the above is not relevant to Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is is not biblical as God's 4th commandment is one of the commandments that show us our duty of love to God. All your posting here once more is a distraction as no one has argued anywhere that we are not to believe and follow every word of God.

Hope this is helpful.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

tall73 said:
Adventist stress the ten as the "moral law" but there were many moral laws, not just the ten. The ten were given as representational of the whole covenant, on the covenant document. But the covenant promise was to do ALL that the Lord commanded.

According to the scripture the 10 commandments are Gods eternal laws that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing) sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. It was both God’s eternal law (10 commandments) and the Mosaic book of the covenant that included all the “shadow laws” for the remission of sins that collectively made up the old covenant according to the scriptures (see Exodus 34:28 and Exodus 24:7).

tall73 said:
And in Matthew 5 Jesus says all the law is still there. The people didn't want to hear God speak after the ten and so the rest were relayed through Moses. But they are not to be set aside either, per Jesus.. And the two great commands are the principles that all the law and prophets hang on. They are the greatest, not the ten. Yet the ten commandments, as the words of the covenant, were important, and were honored. And after he explains how transgression of the law against partiality would make them transgressors of the law he cites two examples from the ten: Jas 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. Jas 2:11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

No one is trying to argue all the law is not here in Matthew 5 so your probably making arguments with yourself here. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant and many of the “shadow laws” that we have already discussed from the old covenants laws for remission of sins are now fulfilled in Christ and continued in him based on better promises (Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; Colossians 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 7:19; 1 Corinthians 5:7-8; Ephesians 2:15 etc). You are not trying to argue that the old covenant “shadow laws are the same in the new covenant are you? Are the old covenant laws for remission of sin still the same as they were in the new covenant or have, they been fulfilled and in Christ to who they all pointed to and continued in his work in our behalf under the new covenant in a heavenly Sanctuary of which the earthly was only a copy under the old covenant? As shown through the scriptures already the two great commandments of love to God and man are simply a summary of obedience God’s 10 commandments. This of course poses a bit of a dilemma for many when as are talking about God’s 4th commandment Sabbath which is one of those commandments in God’s 10 commandments that show how we love God. As posted earlier this is why James is agreeing with Jesus and Paul when he says if we knowingly break anyone of God’s 10 commandments after God has given us a knowledge of the truth of his Word and we reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31) we stand guilty before God of sin and in danger of the judgment to come *Hebrews 10:26-31.

tall73 said:
You hone in on the ten but not the others. They are all still there. And per James in Acts 21 the Jewish believers were zealous for all of them. It is your supposition that it links back to Genesis. Genesis was one narrative with Exodus. They were likely both written after Sinai where God spoke these words Himself.

We hone in on God’s 10 commandments because scripture in James 2:10-11 are specifically talking about God’s 10 commandments. You and your friends focus on anything else accept God’s 10 commandments as a distraction because you know that if the scriptures are talking about the 10 commandments then the 10 commandments here include God’s 4th commandment “seventh day” Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandment and as James says if we show partiality preferring some of God’s 10 commandments over others we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking the whole law.

James 2:10-11 [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

This my friend includes Gods’ “seventh day” Sabbath which is God’s 4th commandment that is one of God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. If we show partiality keeping some of God’s 10 commandments over others we stand guilty before God of sin. Not a place any of us should be in don’t you think?

tall73 said:
Both Genesis and Exodus point back to the creation where God indeed rested. But Exodus is not likely quoting Genesis, but both Genesis and Exodus refer to the words of God who spoke from the mountain.

Actually no. Exodus 20:8-11 absolutely points back to Genesis 2:1-3. Let’s look at what the scriptures say here…

We are told in the commandment...

Exodus 20:8 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY.
Memorial pointing backwards while the reason is given in v11

[11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, AND MADE IT A HOLY DAY.

This links directly backwards to the origin of the Sabbath Genesis 2:1-3 which uses similar wording..

Genesis 2:1-3
[1], THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.
[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD MADE; AND HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
[3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND MADE IT HOLY <THE 7TH DAY>: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD CREATED AND MADE.

Looking at Exodus 20:8 and11 we can see that God tells us at the very beginning of Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments to “REMEMBER” the Sabbath day which is pointing backwards to something that has happened in the past. Let’s compare the scriptures;

1a. [11] FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY (Exodus 20:11)

1b. [1] THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD MADE; AND HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made (Genesis 2:1-2)

………….

2a. WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, AND MADE IT A HOLY DAY. (Exodus 20:11)

2b. GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND MADE IT HOLY DAY BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD CREATED AND MADE. (Genesis 2:3)

It is not hard to see that Exodus 20:8-11 is quoting from Genesis 2:1-3 here.

Hope this is helpful.

Ceallaigh · Jul 30, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Brain you claim to be a Sabbath keeper. Is that really true? The more I read your posts I cannot see that. If so why are you a Sabbath keeper if you do not believe in keeping the Sabbath?

I'm questioning the claim that sabbath keeping is mandatory for Christians under the New Covenant. For me personally sabbath keeping is a choice, a devotional discipline like fasting and Lent. Although not doing any chores or running errands etc from sunset to sundown, is less challenging. The one area where I have a weakness is not buying something to eat and heating food in the microwave.

LoveGodsWord said:
You claim here that keeping nine of the commandments is repeated all through the New testament? That claim is simply not true and is not biblical.

Not a claim. An opinion. An opinion that's open to change. If I'm not seeing it, then I'm not seeing it. That's just an honest report.

LoveGodsWord said:
All of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated all through the New Testament scriptures and Gods' people according to the scriptures keep all the commandments of God because James says if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.
What your posting here is simply unbiblical but allow me to explain why I say this. According to the scriptures everyone of God's 10 commandments are repeated in the new testament!

"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." James 2:10. James said the whole law. Not just the ten commandments, but the whole law. And there's no SDA or sabbatarian in general who does not stumble on at least one point of the whole law. Therefore James is saying they all are guilty of breaking all ten commandments, along with all the other commandments of the law. Surely I'm not the first one to point that out.

LoveGodsWord said:
1 You shall have no other gods before Me.
It is written: You shall worship the Lord your God and Him only you shall serve. (Luke 4:8; Matthew 4:10; Revelation 14:7)

2 You must not make for yourself a carved image, a likeness of anything in heaven, on earth, or under the sea.
God is Spirit and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth. (John 4:24; Acts 15:20; 1 Corinthians 6:9; Ephesians 5:5; 1 Peter 4:3; 1 John 5:21; Revelation 2:14)

3 You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain.
(1 Timothy 6:1, James 2:7)

Thanks for those for #3. Bob has been insisting the 3rd commandment is not mentioned anywhere in the New Testament. I already found James 2:7 and posted it here: #776
I agree that 1 Timothy 6:1 also applies.

LoveGodsWord said:
4 Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. – Binding on all Christians today -Hebrews 4:9
The Sabbath [seventh day] was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, so the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:27-28, Hebrews 4; Matthew 12:8; Matthew 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; Matthew 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matthew 16:24; 1; (After the death of Jesus) Matthew 24:20; Matthew 28:1; Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Hebrews 4:1-5; 9-11; Revelations 1:10 (see Matthew 12:8)

Okay, that's a lot of verses. It will take me some time to review them all. If you and Bob load me down with too much material, I'm probably not going to get to all of it. Maybe you can do me a favor and whittle that bunch to the top ten most applicable please. And really since I'm saying sabbath keeping and sabbath breaking is the only one of the ten commandments I don't see reiterated in the New Testament, there's really no need to address the other nine, as I agree that those are covered in the NT. Now when I say I don't see the 4th commandment reiterated in the NT, I don't mean that it's not mentioned or talked about. I mean that I haven't seen a verse anywhere in the NT that says anything about having to keep the fourth commandment or any warnings about breaking the fourth commandment (except from the Pharisees). And that's the qualifier for all the verses you posted.

LoveGodsWord said:
5 Honor your father and mother.
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. (Ephesians 6:1; Colossians 3:20; Matthew 15:4; Matthew 19:19)

6 You shall not murder.
I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. (Matthew 5:44-45; Matt. 5:21-26; Romans 13:9; 1 Timothy 1:9; 1 John 3:15; James 2:11; Matthew 19:18)

7 You shall not commit adultery.
I say to you whoever even looks at another in lust has already committed adultery in their heart. (Matthew 5:28, 1 Cor. 5:11, 1 Cor. 6:18, Galatians 5:19, Hebrews 13:4, James 2:11, Matthew 19:19, Romans 13:9)

8 You shall not steal.
Neither thieves, the greedy, or drunkards and robbers will inherit the Kingdom. (1 Corinthians 6:10, Romans 2:21, Mark 7:21, Ephesians 4:28, Romans 13:9, Matthew 19:18)

9 You shall not bear false witness.
For by your words, you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned. (Matthew 15:19, Ephesians 4:25, Col. 3:9; Matthew 19:18, Romans 13:9)

10 You shall not covet your neighbors possessions.
Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist of the things he possesses. (Luke 12:15, Romans 7:7, Ephesians 5:3, 1 Timothy 6:10, Hebrews 13:5, Romans 13:9)

...................

Sorry Brian your words do not agree with what the bible says here in regards to the Sabbath in the new testament scriptures.

Hope this was helpful though.

My words are simply that so far I haven't seen a verse anywhere in the NT that says anything about having to keep the fourth commandment or any warnings about breaking the fourth commandment (except from the Pharisees).

Ceallaigh · Jul 30, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Why does the new testament need to talk about Sabbath breaking when all of Gods' people were all keeping Gods' 10 commandments and they already new about Sabbath breaking? The same as there is nothing said about breaking any of the other 10 commandments. Gods' people already knew that to break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments it was sin. You do know that in the days of Jesus and the disciples that their bible was the old covenant scriptures right? You seem to not be considering this so the consequences for breaking everyone of God's 10 commandments were all very well known to all of Gods' people at this time. Even in the new testament we are told that the purpose of God's 10 commandments (which includes Gods' 4th commandment) is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and if we break any one of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11 and for those who reject the gift of Gods' dear son the penalty of sin (breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments) is death *Romans 6:23.

Goodness Brian you have just made my eyes roll, do you know what your claiming here? Your claiming that Jesus broke the Sabbath which according to the scriptures is sin *1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7; James 2:10-11. If you follow your interpretation of the scriptures through here then we are all lost. Why? because in order for Jesus to be God's sacrifice for the sins of the world he had to be without spot or blemish (no sin). The scriptures tell us that your interpretation of John 5:18 is not biblical here...

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

...................

Your mistake here is that you think Jesus sinned when the scriptures teach that it was the Scribes and the Pharisees that claimed Jesus sinned in the context you left out of the scripture you posted. Here lets add the context you left out and make sense of your interpretation of the scriptures that are in contradiction the scriptures already posted for you above.

John 5:5-24
[5], And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
[6], When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?
[7], The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.
[8], Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.
[9], And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.
[10], The Jews therefore said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath day: it is not lawful for thee to carry thy bed.
[11], He answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk.
[12], Then asked they him, What man is that which said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk?
[13], And he that was healed wist not who it was: for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in that place.
[14], Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
[15], The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

[16], And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

[17], But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

[18], Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
[19], Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
[20], For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
[21], For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
[22], For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
[23], That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
[24], Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

....................

Notice in the scriptures above it does not say that Jesus broke the Sabbath it says that the Jews accused him of breaking the Sabbath because he healed a cripple and told him to go home and sin no more. Now how can Jesus sin by breaking the Sabbath and go and tell someone else not to sin no more lest a worst thing happen to them? Does that make any sense? Jesus taught us that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath in Matthew 12:1-12. Therefore Jesus did not sin by breaking the Sabbath he taught us how to correctly keep the Sabbath. It was the Jews who did not understand how to keep the Sabbath that accused Him of breaking the Sabbath. Are you saying that the Scribes and the Pharisees knew more about the Sabbath than the creator of the Sabbath Brian?

Sorry Brian God's Word disagrees with you here.

Hope this is helpful.

The way I see it is, Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and God. He had the authority to alter or break the 4th commandment. It's said adding to scripture is a sin too. Yet Jesus added to scripture when He said things like, "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:27-28. Jesus had the authority do things that would be a sin for anyone else, like forgiving sins and calling Himself God. If anyone else had done things Jesus did, for which the Pharisees accused Him of sinning, they would have been right. The reason why they were wrong, is because Jesus was the one and only person it didn't apply to. If they had recognized Jesus as their Messiah, they would have realized that.

That's the way I see it, that's just my opinion.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 30, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
I have posted earlier text on the new moon being to determine the times and seasons from Genesis 1:14 and in determining the starting times of Gods' appointed times in Leviticus 23 as well as shown the new moon assemblies and animal sacrifices in Numbers 28 and elsewhere. Where did I post that the the purpose of the new moon in determining God's appointed times and the new moon assemblies are the same? - I didn't. I posted they are not the same. So why you saying here they are not the same which is what I already posted and shared in the scriptures already? Perhaps you should go back and re-read through my posts to you. See above, I am never said that the new moon was not an appointed time I have only posted scriptures from Numbers 28 showing that it was an appointed time. What is it in the new moon appointed times that is no more and was a shadow of things to come? - Animal sacrifices; bunt offering, sin offering, meat offering and drink offerings. *Numbers 28:11-15. What were these "there shadows of things to come? Sound familiar?

True but the New moons were never a Sabbath or the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment unless it fell on the same day as the "seventh day" of the week now was it?

Agreed that the New moons are a part of the appointed times as well as the annual sabbaths in the feast days that included Gods' 4th commandment. It is not a true application to God's 4th commandment however as an appointed time because the appointed times were monthly and annual and Gods' 4th commandment is only included in Gods' appointed times (annual Feast days) because some of the Feasts went longer than seven days or depending on the yearly cycle could fall on any day of the week. The appointed times or the application to these times to the Hebrew words, מִקְרָא קֹדֶשׁ; to holy convocations is to that calling out to a public assembly to a sacred place. In reference to the Sabbath (7th day) this was only applied to the annual Feast days during the times of the annual Feasts and never to the weekly "seventh day" Sabbaths of God's 4th commandment outside of the appointed Feast times. So your claims here are not biblical.

You were shown from the scriptures that the new moons were both to show Gods appointed times and was an appointed time. The fact that it was an appointed time of animal sacrifices does not rule out it's purpose as shown already through scripture that the purpose of the new moons was also to determine the annual Feast days or God's appointed times.

This is not true but allow me to explain why from the scriptures. The reference to both Colossians 2:16 and also to Ezekiel 45:17 is to the meat and drink offerings, the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) with the context and application to the Feast days not God's 4th commandment outside of the annual Feast days. Colossians 2:17 says that these are all shadows fulfilled in the body of Christ. Tell me how can God's 4th commandment be a shadow of anything when it is a "memorial" commandment that points backwards to the finished work of creation and not forward to things to come? I do not think you have thought this through very well. Don't forget that Gods "seventh day" Sabbath was made outside of sin and all the shadow laws given in God's plan of salvation because there was no sin when God made the "seventh day" Sabbath of creation. Therefore it is impossible for God's 4th commandment to be a "shadow law" of anything because it points backwards to the finished work of creation when there was no sin and no shadow laws pointing to Jesus and God's plan of salvation for all mankind. Can you see your mistake here?

All of God's 10 commandments (including God's 4th commandment seventh day Sabbath of creation) are all moral laws. That is they give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. They are our duty of moral right doing and love to God (first four commandments) and our moral right doing of love to our neighbor (second six commandments) and if we break anyone of them according to the scriptures we stand guilty before God of sin (James 2:10-11). God's 4th commandment therefore is not a ceremonial law as it is a "memorial" that points backwards to the finished works or creation were God commands us to "Remember" *Exodus 20:8 the Sabbath do to keep it holy. It is our duty of love to God and therefore is moral right doing at to how we love God.

At the same time I do agree that there were ceremonial sabbaths in the annual Feast days. These however were not the same as Gods' 4th commandment that is also outside of the old covenant Feast days and were simply annual sabbaths that were linked directly to the annual Feast days and not to a day outside of the Feasts. There annual ceremonial Sabbaths could call on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle unlike God's 4th commandment that was simply every seventh day as a memorial of creation and the annual ceremonial sabbaths were only linked to the annual Feast days. These annual shadow sabbaths connected to the Feast days included; (1) Feast of Unleavened Bread (first and last day) *Leviticus 23:6-8 (2) Feast of Trumpets *Leviticus 23:24-25 (3) Day of Atonement *Leviticus 23:27-32 (4) Feast of Booths *Leviticus 23:34-36 (5) Feast of First Fruits *Leviticus 23:39 (6) Feast days of Holy convocation of no work (sabbaton Colossians 2:16 *Leviticus 23:7-8; 21;24; 27; 35-36. Unlike God's 4th commandment that is linked only to the "seventh day" of the week. These ceremonial sabbaths are linked directly to the Feast days and can fall on any day of the week depending on the yearly cycle.

As posted earlier it is impossible that Colossians 2:16 is in reference to God's 4th commandment as God's 4th commandment both inside and outside of the annual Feast days. Gods' 4th commandment is one of Gods' 10 commandments that gives us the knowledge of moral right doing and moral wrong doing. The context to Colossians 2:16 is not to God's 4th commandment but to the meat and drink offering, the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the annual Feast days. As posted earlier it is impossible for Gods' 10 commandments to be a shadow of anything because it is a part of the "finished work of creation" *Genesis 2:1-3. It point backwards to the finished work of creation (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) not forwards to things to come (Colossians 2:17). There was no sin and no law and no plan of salvation for unfallen man when the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11. Gods 4th commandment points backwards because it is a memorial of the finished work of creation and the celebration of God as the creator of heaven and earth...

You seem to be confused in relation to God’s 10 commandments not being all moral laws as an expression of love to God and love to man. You mixing up the “shadow laws” of the Mosaic book of the old covenant with God’s eternal law (10 commandments) that give us a knowledge of good and evil (moral right doing and moral wrong doing)

Well that is great but how does the above help your argument? It doesn't. No one has argued that God's 4th commandment was not a part of the annual Holy convocations (calling out to private assemblies to a sacred place). If you remember I have already posted Leviticus 23 showing this earlier. Once again Ezekiel 45:17 just like Colossians 2:16 the context here is to the burnt offerings, the meat and drink offerings, the new moon and the sabbaths (plural once again) in the annual Feast days. This therefore does not help your argument. Your mixing up God's eternal law from His 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken with the annual ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days which where shadows of things to come *Colossians 2:17.

Hope this is helpful.

Great post and if anyone who really wants to know God's Truth about the 4th commandment and has any doubts Colossians 2 is referencing God's one and only holy day instead of the annual sabbath(s) feast days needs to prayerfully read your post. God bless

SabbathBlessings · Jul 30, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scripture the 10 commandments are Gods eternal laws that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing) sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. It was both God’s eternal law (10 commandments) and the Mosaic book of the covenant that included all the “shadow laws” for the remission of sins that collectively made up the old covenant according to the scriptures (see Exodus 34:28 and Exodus 24:7).

No one is trying to argue all the law is not here in Matthew 5 so your probably making arguments with yourself here. We are in the new covenant now not the old covenant and many of the “shadow laws” that we have already discussed from the old covenants laws for remission of sins are now fulfilled in Christ and continued in him based on better promises (Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; Colossians 2:16-17; 1 Corinthians 7:19; 1 Corinthians 5:7-8; Ephesians 2:15 etc). You are not trying to argue that the old covenant “shadow laws are the same in the new covenant are you? Are the old covenant laws for remission of sin still the same as they were in the new covenant or have, they been fulfilled and in Christ to who they all pointed to and continued in his work in our behalf under the new covenant in a heavenly Sanctuary of which the earthly was only a copy under the old covenant? As shown through the scriptures already the two great commandments of love to God and man are simply a summary of obedience God’s 10 commandments. This of course poses a bit of a dilemma for many when as are talking about God’s 4th commandment Sabbath which is one of those commandments in God’s 10 commandments that show how we love God. As posted earlier this is why James is agreeing with Jesus and Paul when he says if we knowingly break anyone of God’s 10 commandments after God has given us a knowledge of the truth of his Word and we reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin (see Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31) we stand guilty before God of sin and in danger of the judgment to come *Hebrews 10:26-31.

We hone in on God’s 10 commandments because scripture in James 2:10-11 are talking about God’s 10 commandments. You and your friends focus on anything else accept God’s 10 commandments as a distraction because you know that if the scriptures are talking about the 10 commandments then the 10 commandments include God’s 4th commandment “seventh day” Sabbath which is one of the 10 commandment and as James says if we show partiality preferring some of God’s 10 commandments over others we stand guilty before God of sin and breaking the whole law.

James 2:10-11 [10], FOR WHOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE IS GUILTY OF ALL. [11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, SAID ALSO, DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU COMMIT NO ADULTERY, YET IF YOU KILL, YOU ARE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF THE LAW.

This my friend includes Gods’ “seventh day” Sabbath which is God’s 4th commandment that is one of God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. If we show partiality keeping some of God’s 10 commandments over others we stand guilty before God of sin. Not a place any of us should be in don’t you think?

Actually no. Exodus 20:8-11 absolutely points back to Genesis 2:1-3. Let’s look at what the scriptures say here…

We are told in the commandment...

Exodus 20:8 [8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY.
Memorial pointing backwards while the reason is given in v11

[11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, AND MADE IT A HOLY DAY.

This links directly backwards to the origin of the Sabbath Genesis 2:1-3 which uses similar wording..

Genesis 2:1-3
[1], THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.
[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD MADE; AND HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made.
[3], And GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND MADE IT HOLY <THE 7TH DAY>: BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD CREATED AND MADE.

Looking at Exodus 20:8 and11 we can see that God tells us at the very beginning of Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments to “REMEMBER” the Sabbath day which is pointing backwards to something that has happened in the past. Let’s compare the scriptures;

1a. [11] FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IN THEM IS, AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY (Exodus 20:11)

1b. [1] THUS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH WERE FINISHED, AND ALL THE HOST OF THEM.[2], And ON THE SEVENTH DAY GOD ENDED HIS WORK WHICH HE HAD MADE; AND HE RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY from all his work which he had made (Genesis 2:1-2)

………….

2a. WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, AND MADE IT A HOLY DAY. (Exodus 20:11)

2b. GOD BLESSED THE SEVENTH DAY, AND MADE IT HOLY DAY BECAUSE THAT IN IT HE HAD RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORK WHICH GOD CREATED AND MADE. (Genesis 2:3)

It is not hard to see that Exodus 20:8-11 is quoting from Genesis 2:1-3 here.

Hope this is helpful.

Amen!

HIM · Jul 30, 2021

Major1 said:
That is a Straw man answer. Those points were not in the equation and Jesus spoke to the ones that He thought mattered and the Sabbath was not one of them.

Apparently coveting is not an issue either?

Ceallaigh · Jul 30, 2021

HIM said:
Apparently coveting is not an issue either?

And He said to them, “Take heed and beware of covetousness, for one’s life does not consist in the abundance of the things he possesses.”. Luke 12:15

Adventist Heretic · Jul 30, 2021

coffee4u said:
You don't need to go to a building that has been designated as a church to have fellowship with God. Some of us believe everyday is a day of rest in God.
Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

Suggesting that not attending a service on Saturday will lead to the mark of the beast is a horrific thing to say and only alienates people even more from your church. I know you didn't say it but another SDA.
Believe it or not Christians, those following Christ, can actually believe different doctrines backed by scripture. Not talking here of things that people added or came up with from outside of scripture, but just the pure reading of scripture.
We believe Romans makes it clear that we do not have to esteem one day above another.
No one is trying to push that you shouldn't esteem Saturday as higher either, that is between you and God, but your constant pushing of Saturday service onto us as something we should do is tiresome and unneeded.

that is not refering to the sabbath

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

HAPPY SABBATH EVERYONE FROM THE FUTURE :clap:

May God's blessing be with you and your families as you seek Him through his Word and believe and follow it.

Ceallaigh · Jul 30, 2021

I get to start of this sabbath by seeing family I only see once or twice a year

Adventist Heretic · Jul 30, 2021

coffee4u said:
You don't need to go to a building that has been designated as a church to have fellowship with God. Some of us believe everyday is a day of rest in God.
Romans 14:5
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

Suggesting that not attending a service on Saturday will lead to the mark of the beast is a horrific thing to say and only alienates people even more from your church. I know you didn't say it but another SDA.
Believe it or not Christians, those following Christ, can actually believe different doctrines backed by scripture. Not talking here of things that people added or came up with from outside of scripture, but just the pure reading of scripture.
We believe Romans makes it clear that we do not have to esteem one day above another.
No one is trying to push that you shouldn't esteem Saturday as higher either, that is between you and God, but your constant pushing of sorry Saturday service onto us as something we should do is tiresome and unneeded.

I will say it out right, I believe there will be a time when the creator and the creation order will be one of the defining issue between true and false believers, the faithful and unfaithful. Scripture is very clear in Revelation that the issue is Worship. Worship the Creator or Worship the Image of the Beast. that is the issue. in order to identify with the Creator and the image God, it will be necessary to have some kind of out sign, the Sabbath is that sign. for the word Sabbath mean "sign of the Eternal Father". After spending 11 years in one of the most liberal hippie towns in america, I can tell you what is coming. it is disturbing how the image of God is being is being destroyed in these areas. Homosexuality and Transgenderism is being openly embraced by these churches and the Rainbow one of the Signs of God God is being used to promote things God condemns and calls sin. You are now seeing a wholesale attack on the church by the media, academia, and the government in a more aggressive way then I have ever seen in my life time. We are now at the beginning of the time we have been talking about. Some event will trigger the need to come together and make a change.

LoveGodsWord · Jul 30, 2021

MMXX said:
I get to start of this sabbath by seeing family I only see once or twice a year

Hope you have a great Sabbath Brian :oldthumbsup:

Adventist Heretic · Jul 30, 2021

MMXX said:
4. Well Jeremiah 31:31-34 starts off with:

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord,
“when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their ancestors
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to them,”
declares the Lord.

you are clearly not quoting this properly, you left out the most important part and the part the contradicts you

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

now notice the covenant that is made is NOT a NEW LAW, but a new location and a new way of knowing God. it is a new method not new substance. So swing and a miss. Try again.

Ceallaigh · Jul 30, 2021

icedragon101 said:
I will say it out right, I believe there will be a time when the creator and the creation order will be one of the defining issue between true and false believers, the faithful and unfaithful. Scripture is very clear in Revelation that the issue is Worship. Worship the Creator or Worship the Image of the Beast. that is the issue. in order to identify with the Creator and the image God, it will be necessary to have some kind of out sign, the Sabbath is that sign. for the word Sabbath mean "sign of the Eternal Father". After spending 11 years in one of the most liberal hippie towns in america, I can tell you what is coming. it is disturbing how the image of God is being is being destroyed in these areas. Homosexuality and Transgenderism is being openly embraced by these churches and the Rainbow one of the Signs of God God is being used to promote things God condemns and calls sin. You are now seeing a wholesale attack on the church by the media, academia, and the government in a more aggressive way then I have ever seen in my life time. We are now at the beginning of the time we have been talking about. Some event will trigger the need to come together and make a change.

I thought salvation had more to do with Jesus Christ.

Ceallaigh · Jul 30, 2021

icedragon101 said:
you are clearly not quoting this properly

That doesn't make any sense. It's a cut and paste from the Bible.

icedragon101 said:
you left out the most important part and the part the contradicts you

“This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel
after that time,” declares the Lord.
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord.
“For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.”

now notice the covenant that is made is NOT a NEW LAW, but a new location and a new way of knowing God. it is a new method not new substance. So swing and a miss. Try again.

The problem is I didn't say "new law". I said "new covenant" (see the quote below)

MMXX said:
It seems to me that's saying right off that the New Covenant is not the same as the Old Covenant. Or put another way, that the New Covenant replaced the Old Covenant. Or that the Old Covenant became obsolete.

@icedragon101 @BobRyan @LoveGodsWord

Can I just converse with you brothers without it being so adversarial?

Why do SDA preach

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