CDC updates guidance, recommends vaccinated people wear masks indoors in certain areas

probinson

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Are you saying that the government and people of India couldn't have possibly handled the situation better? Vaccine hesistancy is just as common over there as it is in the US, if not more so.
Supply is the bigger concern in India.

What I'm saying is that this is a world problem. We should be focusing vaccination where it is needed most. That is the best way to prevent the emergence of new variants. Vaccinating to prevent asymptomatic cases of healthy, young adults and children and those who have had prior infections is of marginal benefit. Preventing severe outcomes in those most vulnerable should be our focus, as that is our best opportunity to prevent the emergence of new variants.
 
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probinson

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And you do not understand what an ad hominem is either.

Sure I do.

When I post things and instead of addressing the content of what I posted but instead summarily dismissing everything and insinuating that I am under-qualified and illiterate to speak on the topic, that is a textbook example of ad hominem.
 
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Strathos

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Supply is the bigger concern in India.

What I'm saying is that this is a world problem. We should be focusing vaccination where it is needed most. That is the best way to prevent the emergence of new variants. Vaccinating to prevent asymptomatic cases of healthy, young adults and children and those who have had prior infections is of marginal benefit. Preventing severe outcomes in those most vulnerable should be our focus, as that is our best opportunity to prevent the emergence of new variants.

Anyone can get the virus and spread it. Anyone of any age can die from it, even if it is less likely. One of the first fatalities in my state was a 1-year-old child.
 
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FireDragon76

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Ad hominem is unfortunate, but not unexpected.

Somebody who believes in "Word of Faith" has no business lecturing the rest of us on supposed flaws in science. Magical thinking has no epistemic power, but at least the scientific method can claim this: when I flip on a light switch, I am reasonably certain the lights will come on.
 
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probinson

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Anyone can get the virus and spread it. Anyone of any age can die from it, even if it is less likely. One of the first fatalities in my state was a 1-year-old child.

That's a tragic loss, but it is absolutely not the norm.

In 18 months, the CDC has recorded 172 deaths from COVID in 0-4 year olds. For context, CDC estimates that around 5% of the US population is between the ages of 0-4, meaning that there are 16,410,000 children between the ages of 0-4. If 172 of them died from COVID, that means .001% of children ages 0-4 died from COVID. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, these children have a higher risk of dying from drowning than from COVID.
 
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probinson

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Somebody who believes in "Word of Faith" has no business lecturing the rest of us on supposed flaws in science. Magical thinking has no epistemic power, but at least the scientific method can claim this: when I flip on a light switch, I am reasonably certain the lights will come on.

Ad hominem is unfortunate, but not unexpected.
 
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FireDragon76

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probinson

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Just an explanation of where your true agenda lies.
Ad hominem is unfortunate, but not unexpected.

It's sad that you can't articulate a coherent rebuttal, so you resort to these lazy tactics.

My political affiliation and my personal beliefs have NOTHING to do with what I've posted. And you know that. Yet you dishonestly pretend like there is some hidden agenda here instead of addressing the valid points I've made. Shameful.
 
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FireDragon76

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Ad hominem is unfortunate, but not unexpected.

It's sad that you can't articulate a coherent rebuttal, so you resort to these lazy tactics.

My political affiliation and my personal beliefs have NOTHING to do with what I've posted. And you know that. Yet you dishonestly pretend like there is some hidden agenda here instead of addressing the valid points I've made. Shameful.

Your arguments are hardly worth refutation, as they are fundamentally rooted in a self-referential worldview that has no basis for empirical verification.
 
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probinson

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Your arguments are hardly worth refutation, as they are fundamentally rooted in a self-referential worldview that has no basis for empirical verification.

The king of empty, baseless insults speaks again!

Let's start with natural immunity. Please explain why the CDC continually downplays the effects of natural immunity. Remember, these are articles in medical journals and opinions of doctors and scientists. They are not "my arguments";

The CDC has this to say on the topic of natural immunity (emphasis added);

Getting COVID-19 may offer some natural protection, known as immunity. Current evidence suggests that reinfection with the virus that causes COVID-19 is uncommon in the 90 days after initial infection. However, experts don’t know for sure how long this protection lasts, and the risk of severe illness and death from COVID-19 far outweighs any benefits of natural immunity.

Answering Patients’ Questions about COVID-19 Vaccination | CDC

However, a recent article in the BMJ says this (emphasis added);

There is reason to think that immunity could last for several months or a couple of years, at least, given what we know about other viruses and what we have seen so far in terms of antibodies in patients with covid-19 and in people who have been vaccinated.

How long does covid-19 immunity last?

From MedPage Today on the AMA's debate on the value of natural immunity (emphasis added);

Gregory Pinto, MD, a delegate from New York, called for policy recommending "that vaccination credentials be provided on the basis of natural immunity or previous SARS-CoV-2 infection" during proceedings on the virtual "floor."

He argued that there "is no indication that immunity derived from prior COVID infection is in any way inferior to that derived from vaccination." Therefore, any immunity credentialing service ought to include natural immunity stemming from a prior infection, he said.


https://www.medpagetoday.com/meetingcoverage/ama/93179

Also from MedPage Today (emphasis added);

Earlier this month the World Health Organization released a scientific update stating that most people who have recovered from COVID-19 develop a strong protective immune response. Importantly, they summarize that within 4 weeks of infection, 90% to 99% of people who recover from COVID-19 develop detectable neutralizing antibodies. Furthermore, they conclude -- given the limited amount of time to observe cases -- that the immune response remains strong for at least 6 to 8 months after infection.

This update echoes what the NIH reported in January 2021: The immune response of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to 8 months after infection. The NIH went further to state that those findings "provide hope" that people who get vaccinated will develop similar lasting immunity.

....

Moving forward, policymakers should include natural immunity as determined by an accurate and reliable antibody test or the documentation of prior infection (previous positive PCR or antigen test), as evidence of immunity equal to that of vaccination. That immunity should be given the same societal status as vaccine-inducted immunity. Such a policy will greatly reduce anxiety and increase access to travel, events, family visits, and more. The updated policy will allow those who have recovered to celebrate their recovery by informing them of their immunity, allowing them to safely discard their masks, show their faces, and join the legions of those vaccinated.


https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/92836
 
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cow451

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Well in this case we know it came from CHY-na. It's COVID from China. It's China's fault and China's responsibility at this point.
Other than the fact CHY-na isn’t going to help the US. So we should get our butts in gear.
 
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FireDragon76

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Other than the fact CHY-na isn’t going to help the US. So we should get our butts in gear.

I thought conservatives were supposed to be patriots, now they are saying the US is so helpless they need China to fix everything.
 
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rjs330

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Are you serious? I've posted links, charts and graphs in almost every post I've made. "My claims" in this thread most often are not my own, but those of medical journals, doctors and scientists.



Here you go;

Fauci: Attacks on me are really also 'attacks on science'

There's no "quote mining" here. Just an arrogant Dr. Fauci pretending like he's the unassailable personification of science.

Oh don't fret, it's a favorite tactic. You post links and data and the claim is where is your links and data.
 
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Subduction Zone

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Do you? What specifically in my source do you think needs to be checked?

It is clear that you did not understand the refutation that I provided or else you did not read it. I linked and quoted the email that you misinterpreted at best.

No, I don't have that mistaken belief at all. I know science evolves. That doesn't change the fact that that statement has been twisted and yanked around mercilessly for 18 months to justify non-evidence based policies.

Then you should have understood that when Fauci changed his claims it was because the science behind them changed and that there was no arrogance in his statement.


Nope.

Here's Dr. Fauci in his own words;l

When polls said only about half of all Americans would take a vaccine, I was saying herd immunity would take 70 to 75 percent,” Dr. Fauci said. “Then, when newer surveys said 60 percent or more would take it, I thought, ‘I can nudge this up a bit,’ so I went to 80, 85.”

How Much Herd Immunity Is Enough?

Notice that Dr. Fauci isn't changing his recommendations based on science here. He changed them, in his own words, based on "polls" and "newer surveys". Explain to me how you think that is "following the science".

Wow! You are the king of cherry picking. That is not a proper debating technique. You should have read the part above:

"Since the start of the pandemic, the figure that many epidemiologists have offered has been 60 to 70 percent. That range is still cited by the World Health Organization and is often repeated during discussions of the future course of the disease."

Just as an FYI, the number can vary a lot depending upon the efficacy of the vaccine and the virulence of the disease. It is a bit on the optimistic side for Covid.

So let's see what else the article says:

"In a telephone interview the next day, Dr. Fauci acknowledged that he had slowly but deliberately been moving the goal posts. He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks.


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Hard as it may be to hear, he said, he believes that it may take close to 90 percent immunity to bring the virus to a halt — almost as much as is needed to stop a measles outbreak."

Oopsy! It looks like you were caught with your pants down. Again. The article shows that Fauci was following the science.

Right. That's why he equated himself with infallible science. No ego there!

Where? No it looks like you are making up nonsense. Your own article refutes you.

How remarkably irrelevant, but telling.

Why would I call Donald Trump an "arrogant yutz" if I supported him? Not that it matters at all in this discussion (other than providing yet another example of how pandemic policy and discussions are nakedly political in nature), but I have never been a Trump supporter.

Wow! Another epic failure. Trump was an arrogant yutz. He still is. It does not matter if you supported him or not. The point is that I can tell that you almost certainly did. You make his mistakes. So you did not vote for Trump? Okay, I hope that is the case, but you sound like a chip off the old block quite often.

Right back atcha.

Nope, sorry, I am not guilty of your errors.
 
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rjs330

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I thought conservatives were supposed to be patriots, now they are saying the US is so helpless they need China to fix everything.

LoL, I don't think ANYONE thinks China could fix everything much less should. I wouldn't trust them to use a toothpick properly.
 
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rjs330

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It is clear that you did not understand the refutation that I provided or else you did not read it. I linked and quoted the email that you misinterpreted at best.



Then you should have understood that when Fauci changed his claims it was because the science behind them changed and that there was no arrogance in his statement.




Wow! You are the king of cherry picking. That is not a proper debating technique. You should have read the part above:

"Since the start of the pandemic, the figure that many epidemiologists have offered has been 60 to 70 percent. That range is still cited by the World Health Organization and is often repeated during discussions of the future course of the disease."

Just as an FYI, the number can vary a lot depending upon the efficacy of the vaccine and the virulence of the disease. It is a bit on the optimistic side for Covid.

So let's see what else the article says:

"In a telephone interview the next day, Dr. Fauci acknowledged that he had slowly but deliberately been moving the goal posts. He is doing so, he said, partly based on new science, and partly on his gut feeling that the country is finally ready to hear what he really thinks.


  • Dig deeper into the moment.
Special offer: Subscribe for $1 a week.

Hard as it may be to hear, he said, he believes that it may take close to 90 percent immunity to bring the virus to a halt — almost as much as is needed to stop a measles outbreak."

Oopsy! It looks like you were caught with your pants down. Again. The article shows that Fauci was following the science.



Where? No it looks like you are making up nonsense. Your own article refutes you.



Wow! Another epic failure. Trump was an arrogant yutz. He still is. It does not matter if you supported him or not. The point is that I can tell that you almost certainly did. You make his mistakes. So you did not vote for Trump? Okay, I hope that is the case, but you sound like a chip off the old block quite often.



Nope, sorry, I am not guilty of your errors.

Oh that's just too rich! Fauci admits to moving the goal posts PARTLY based on science? Wow that's trust worthy right there! I partly cook my hamburger z but I wouldn't want to eat it that way.

You state epidemiologists saying it's 60-70% then say Fauci thinks it's 90%. Well that totally makes him.fillowing the science. Oh wait, he followed his gut. Well at least partly.

Yup, trust that guy.
 
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Aldebaran

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FireDragon76

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Oh that's just too rich! Fauci admits to moving the goal posts PARTLY based on science? Wow that's trust worthy right there! I partly cook my hamburger z but I wouldn't want to eat it that way.

You state epidemiologists saying it's 60-70% then say Fauci thinks it's 90%. Well that totally makes him.fillowing the science. Oh wait, he followed his gut. Well at least partly.

Yup, trust that guy.

Better to listen to Dr. Fauci than to the last guy whose advice involved drinking bleach.
 
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