com7fy8

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I don’t quite understand. There is several verses in romans that sounds a lot like predestination.
Yes, but I think there is doctrine of predestination that does not go far enough. Romans 9:21 does not say only that God makes choices about people, but He is our Potter.

I don't know if John Calvin knew God is our Potter. But to me it is clear how our Apostle Paul says this.

And a main thing about Biblical predestination is that we in Jesus are destined to be conformed to the image of God's own Son >

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Romans 8:29)

So, this is what predestination . . . Biblical predestination . . . is really about.

God made this choice before there were humans!

Therefore, Biblical predestination is not mainly about who has control. But because control is an idol of human ego, there are people who mainly worry about who controls what happens to them - - instead of first staying attentive to submitting to our Father in His peace >

"And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful." (Colossians 3:15)

And you do not see them giving priority of their attention to how to be conformed to the image of Jesus, because their attention is elsewhere.

So, it is wise not to misguide people's attention.

Because of how our Apostle Paul understands predestination, his attention is focused on us becoming perfected in Christ, I understand through Colossians 1:28-29 >

"Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus; to this end I also labor, striving according to His working which works in me mightily." (Colossians 1:28-29)

So, this is what predestination is mainly about, how we in Jesus are guaranteed to be conformed to the image of Jesus. And this is, then, the first thing, I would say, which has the attention of Biblical ministry.

And you can see how much humans in our free wills are choosing to keep our attention to this. Because of how people's wills in sin are free from God, they do not keep attentive and submissive to how our Father rules us in His own peace and changes us to be and to love like Jesus.
 
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childeye 2

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Some Calvinists will claim that God grants repentance in the sense that God enables a person to be able to repent. Lets read the verses (that they think teaches that).
I'm not a Calvinist, but I do study semantics, particularly when applied in our psychological linguistics. I would like to comment on some of this scripture.

2 Timothy 2:24-26

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

Above it should be noted that there exists a predisposition described in those who are in need of instruction, wherein through the circumstance of being ignorant, they actually oppose their own selves in a blindness to what is the Truth and/or Knowledge of God's Personal Character. I believe this is the case with all of mankind, even because this is my own personal experience wherein my mind is gradually transformed by coming to know/trust/believe in, The Christ Jesus, through hearing and understanding the Gospel. It is for this reason that meekness is and gentleness is a prerequisite, since the humble servant of God understands how the lie works and affectively blinds people from a Truth that would set them free from the snare of the devil mentioned below. To be clear, the spirit of this world is a do it to them before they do it to you, kill or be killed type of spirit. The Spirit of Christ is to love others as yourself which requires that we see others as ourselves. Hence righteousness is by grace through faith wherefore unrighteousness is by cynicism through distrust.

if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It should be noted that it is the devil that holds people captive through a snare. Also it is noted that the repentance given is complete to the acknowledging of the Truth. In a state of carnal mindedness which Paul described as incapable of serving God, God must by definition be given the credit for His Holy Spirit of Truth Who is able to live within us once we understand why Christ died for us when we were yet sinners, and why we as servants of God must also likewise carry our own cross for others so as to become Like Christ in our words and actions. We need to acknowledge that it is the Holy Spirit that delivers us from the snare of the devil and transforms the carnal will from desiring to serve the flesh to desiring to serve the Spirit.
We must also acknowledge that after seeing the Truth of the need to trust/believe in God as Holy, scripture identifies a persistent and wanton ignorance wherefore God might determine to give such men over to delusion.​
 
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I'm not a Calvinist, but I do study semantics, particularly when applied in our psychological linguistics. I would like to comment on some of this scripture.

2 Timothy 2:24-26

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;

Above it should be noted that there exists a predisposition described in those who are in need of instruction, wherein through the circumstance of being ignorant, they actually oppose their own selves in a blindness to what is the Truth and/or Knowledge of God's Personal Character. I believe this is the case with all of mankind, even because this is my own personal experience wherein my mind is gradually transformed by coming to know/trust/believe in, The Christ Jesus, through hearing and understanding the Gospel. It is for this reason that meekness is and gentleness is a prerequisite, since the humble servant of God understands how the lie works and affectively blinds people from a Truth that would set them free from the snare of the devil mentioned below. To be clear, the spirit of this world is a do it to them before they do it to you, kill or be killed type of spirit. The Spirit of Christ is to love others as yourself which requires that we see others as ourselves. Hence righteousness is by grace through faith wherefore unrighteousness is by cynicism through distrust.

if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

It should be noted that it is the devil that holds people captive through a snare. In of state of carnal mindedness which Paul described as incapable of serving God, God must by definition be given the credit for His Holy Spirit of Truth Who is able to live within us once we understand why Christ died for us when we were yet sinners, and why we as servants of God must also likewise carry our own cross for others so as to become Like Christ in our actions. We need to acknowledge that it is the Holy Spirit that delivers us from the snare of the devil and transforms the carnal will from desiring to serve the flesh to desiring to serve the Spirit.​

We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. Yes, the devil blinds people, but we are also told to: “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.” (James 4:7). We also know that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says, “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It really comes down to the individual and their choice as to why they perish. They are not perishing because they did not get a chance at salvation because God did not give them the ability or chance to repent. They are perishing because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. No election. No devil. No enslavement to the devil will be to blame come judgment day. We all will have to give an answer to the Lord in what we have done in this life. Those who done good in this life will be a part of the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil will be a part of the resurrection of damnation (See: John 5:29). No trusting in the finished work of the cross alone will save a person, either. For those who believe this way think they can abide in sin on some level, or they must stumble into serious sin the rest of their life (because they cannot help it), and yet, they believe they are still saved because they have a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior. But salvation does not work like that. After we are saved by God's grace, we have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We have to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). Believers have to live holy lives after they are saved by God's grace. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (See: Hebrews 12:14-15).
 
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I don’t quite understand. There is several verses in romans that sounds a lot like predestination. There is also a ton of verses that talk about making the choice to follow Christ. I want to believe free will. The idea that God decides who is gonna follow Him and who He’s gonna throw in Hell I find disturbing. If you support predestination please explain the verses that speak about free will. Ex John 3:16. That’s just one of many. And if your for free will please explain the verses that sound like presentation. Ex Romans 9:21-23. Also I know about Armineaism but Romans 9:21-23 doesn’t sound like it’s based on our choices
Obviously, both are true. We make choices and we are predetermined.
 
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Obviously, both are true. We make choices and we are predetermined.

The OP is referring to the Calvinist version of Predestination. He is referring to Calvinistic Unconditional Election in how that greatly disturbs him. John Calvin's Unconditional Election of course is not biblical and is an attack upon the good character of our God. For God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).
 
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com7fy8

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We need to acknowledge that it is the Holy Spirit that delivers us from the snare of the devil and transforms the carnal will from desiring to serve the flesh to desiring to serve the Spirit.
Our character has a lot to do with what we choose. So, if my will's character is carnal . . . I choose accordingly.

"But God be thanked, that though you were slaves of sin, yet you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered." (Romans 6:17)

While my heart was evil, I chose accordingly, in slavery to sin . . . therefore to Satan and his evil spirit > "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (in Ephesians 2:2)

Those lusts and that cruel and dominating worry worked very hard.

But God's grace is almighty. The thanks is purely to You, O God.
 
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Salvation is by grace alone through faith, as such God saves us by giving us faith. Faith therefore saves us, not on account of our own power or ability to believe, but because faith is what God's gracious work of salvation is in our lives. It is God who gives us faith, it is not of ourselves, not by our works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). Apart from this faith in Christ there is no salvation.

Salvation is therefore the work of God alone. We don't contribute anything, not even a "yes", all of our works, all of our ability, the entirety of our human will is stained with sin--our efforts, all of our efforts, are worthless and cannot accomplish anything.

The Shepherd doesn't ask if the lamb wants to join the sheepfold, the Shepherd reaches down and carries the lamb over His shoulders and into the salvation of the sheepfold. But the lamb can keep trying to run and run, escape and escape, always seeking to flee away from the Shepherd and the safety which He has come to give. And if we insist on continuing to flee away from the Shepherd's salvation we may find ourselves one day fleeing ourselves over the edge of a cliff into a ravine.

Therefore damnation comes not from God, but from man. Damnation comes by the power of man's efforts and will, in opposition to God and set against His kindness--fleeing headlong toward death, colluding with it day and night by our sinful injuries toward our neighbor and the rest of God's creation. Denying our very Divine Image-bearing humanity.

The way of the natural, unregenerate man is his own collusion with death, he is, Lutherans say, homo incurvatus in se, man bent or curved inward upon himself. Man seeks himself, looks inward, trying to find in himself some glory, or greatness, or power. And in doing so seeking after oneself, indulging the passions of the flesh, and despising our fellow man and the God in whose image man is, we shall find only the bitterness of the damnation which we ourselves willfully and (tragically) happily made for ourselves.

God alone saves.
Man alone damns.

-CryptoLutheran

No. God does not give us faith (i.e. Initial Faith).

#1. We are commanded to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
#2. All men everywhere are commanded to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
#2. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
#3. You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)
#4. We are told to continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23).
#5. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. (Matthew 8:10).
#6. Without faith, it is impossible to please God and we are told that if we come to Him, we must believe that He exists, and He is a rewarder to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).
#7. Jesus said to His disciples, “Have faith in God.” (Mark 11:22).
 
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trophy33

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No. God does not give us faith.

#1. We are commanded to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
#2. All men everywhere are commanded to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
#2. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
#3. You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)
#4. We are told to continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23).
#5. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. (Matthew 8:10).
#6. Without faith, it is impossible to please God and we are told that if we come to Him, we must believe that He exists, and He is a rewarder to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).
#7. Jesus said to His disciples, “Have faith in God.” (Mark 11:22).

Both is true. God gives us faith and we must decide to believe.

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”
Lk 17:5

but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail.
Lk 22:32

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith
Heb 12:2
 
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childeye 2

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We have to look at the whole counsel of God's Word. Yes, the devil blinds people, but we are also told to resist the devil and he will flee from you. We also know that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says, “And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.”

It really comes down to the individual and their choice as to why they perish. They are not perishing because they did not get a chance at salvation because God did not give them the ability or chance to repent. They are perishing because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. No election. No devil. No enslavement to the devil will be to blame come judgment day. We all will have to give an answer to the Lord in what we have done in this life. Those who done good in this life will be a part of the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil will be a part of the resurrection of damnation (See: John 5:29). No trusting in the finish work of the cross alone will save a person, either. For they those who think this way think they can abide in sin in some way or if they justify sin in some way and still be saved because they have a belief in Jesus. We have to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). We have to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12).
I just edited my post before reading this response. I added this statement: We must also acknowledge that after seeing the Truth of the need to trust/believe in God as Holy, scripture identifies a persistent and wanton ignorance wherefore God might determine to give such men over to delusion.

Respectfully, my issue is with the term 'freewill'. It is not a stable term to reason upon. There's a reason that the snare is attributed to the devil and to a deception, and not to a man's free will. Sinfulness is actually a disability not an ability, and there's a reason why Jesus says we cannot serve two masters.

Moreover, the sentiment of the term 'freewill' is commonly used to denote personal responsibility for one's moral/immoral behavior, even as it is the accuser of the brethren that is being cast down, which is in stark contrast to those who forgive and are forgiven accordingly. In reality it is Love that compels moral behavior. To give God the credit for His Spirit which promotes mercy and understanding is to be thankful for His Spirit and that is the issue concerning a sincere worship of His Person as God. Wherefore it is they which are forgiven much that Love the Master more than those who are forgiven little, and it is also they who have received the greater portion of the true meaning of receiving the Love of the Truth that they might be saved.
 
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I just edited my post before reading this response. I added this statement: We must also acknowledge that after seeing the Truth of the need to trust/believe in God as Holy, scripture identifies a persistent and wanton ignorance wherefore God can then give men over to delusion.

Respectfully, my issue is with the term 'freewill'. It is not a stable term to reason upon. There's a reason that the snare is attributed to the devil and to a deception, and not to a man's free will. There's a reason why Jesus says we cannot serve two masters.

Moreover, the sentiment of the term freewill is commonly used to denote personal responsibility for one's moral/immoral behavior, even as it is the accuser of the brethren that is being cast down, which is in stark contrast to those who forgive and are forgiven accordingly. In reality it is Love that compels moral behavior. To give God the credit for His Spirit which promotes mercy and understanding is to be thankful for His Spirit. Wherefore it is they which are forgiven much that Love the master more than those who are forgiven little, and it is they who have received in greater portion the true meaning of receiving the Love of the Truth that they might be saved.

So do you believe men are not responsible in choosing Jesus Christ in this life? That it is all God who decides who is saved and not saved? If so, then why is God judging mankind? That would be like having a judgment for wolves or lions for eating people. They are only acting on instinct, and they cannot be held accountable at a judgment. A judgment of man assumes that man has to answer to God for his actions (Whether they be bad or good). To argue otherwise is to simply go down the road of illogical non-sense. So yes. Man has free will to either choose God or not choose God. If this was not the case, then there could be no judgment where God condemns man.
 
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Both is true. God gives us faith and we must decide to believe.

The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!”
Lk 17:5

but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail.
Lk 22:32

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith
Heb 12:2

These verses are not referring to a person having Initial Faith. I was referring to how Calvinist's believe that God zaps an unbelieving person to have faith against their own free will choice. This concept of faith does not exist in the Bible. Yes, God can help our continued faith (after we are already walking with Him by faith), but we must ask. But faith is ultimately something God requires of us. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. So if we have disbelief, we can ask God to help our unbelief. But the faith is just another way of saying God's Word. Today, the faith is the Holy Bible. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). So our faith comes by hearing the words of Jesus and His followers found in the New Testament. That is how we get faith, and it is how we continue in the faith. No Bible, and there is no faith. We must believe God's Word (Which is the faith). God is not going to believe in the Bible for us. Neither is God going to brainwash our mind to believe in the Bible, either. We have to decide to believe. For faith is what pleases God. Without faith it is impossible to please Him. Sure, God can awaken us to what His Word says in order to have faith, but we still have free will to believe it or to reject it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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No. God does not give us faith.

#1. We are commanded to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
#2. All men everywhere are commanded to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
#2. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
#3. You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)
#4. We are told to continue in the faith (Colossians 1:23).
#5. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. (Matthew 8:10).
#6. Without faith, it is impossible to please God and we are told that if we come to Him, we must believe that He exists, and He is a rewarder to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).
#7. Jesus said to His disciples, “Have faith in God.” (Mark 11:22).

I'm not sure how you think any of those passages is contrary to God giving us faith.

1. God's command to us that we believe, is that we believe in Christ and love one another.
2. Everyone is commanded to repent. That hardly excludes God's gift of faith.
3. Faith does come by hearing the word--that's how God gives us faith.
4. Yes, that is the promise God gives His people, the ones who have faith in Him.
5. Doesn't exclude that God is the One who gives us faith.
6. It is impossible to please God without faith, and with faith we seek Him, without faith no one seeks after God.
7. And He is Himself the Author of their faith.

I would encourage you to ask yourself why it is so important to you that you be responsible for your salvation rather than trusting in the goodness and love of God which is in Christ Jesus for you.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I'm not sure how you think any of those passages is contrary to God giving us faith.

1. God's command to us that we believe, is that we believe in Christ and love one another.
2. Everyone is commanded to repent. That hardly excludes God's gift of faith.
3. Faith does come by hearing the word--that's how God gives us faith.
4. Yes, that is the promise God gives His people, the ones who have faith in Him.
5. Doesn't exclude that God is the One who gives us faith.
6. It is impossible to please God without faith, and with faith we seek Him, without faith no one seeks after God.
7. And He is Himself the Author of their faith.

I would encourage you to ask yourself why it is so important to you that you be responsible for your salvation rather than trusting in the goodness and love of God which is in Christ Jesus for you.

-CryptoLutheran

When you say that God gives us faith it sounds like a forced thing like the Calvinists believe. That they were once an unbeliever, and poof, they are now a believer and cannot help that fact. Is this what you mean by God giving a person faith?

As for Jesus being the author of our faith: I take that to mean that Jesus is the One who knocked on the door of my heart, but I had to respond and let Him in. I take that to mean that Jesus paid the price for the sins of the entire world and that He can give me life if I abide with Him. But it is a daily thing and not a guarantee. I must choose this day every day in whom I will serve. We are to draw near to God and He will draw near to us. God is not going to force us to be with Him. Jesus can help me to overcome and to be a finisher of the faith but I have to want that and do what is good and pleasing in His sight, too. Jesus is not going to finish the race for me and or without me. Jesus is not going to fight the good fight of faith for me and or without me (See: 1 Timothy 6:12).
 
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childeye 2

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So do you believe men are not responsible in choosing Jesus Christ in this life?
I see Christ as a revelation of God's Person. My testimony is that I believed because his sentiments as the Word of God come in the flesh, bear witness with the remnant of the Word of God that was already in me from birth, but had become corrupted and was dying in a hopeless and wicked world. Belief in the Christ quickened my Spirit through a renewed hope in the Eternal existence of Love/empathy for others. I wanted to believe once I understood the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit was present in that action. I think in terms of being 'convinced' and having been afforded adequate reason to support 'conviction'. I therefore would never say that I chose to believe in the Christ out of my own freewill because in my mind, and perhaps in the minds of others, it suggests I could have chosen not to believe, as if I could have not wanted to believe once the Truth was revealed. There are however impediments to the growth, such as described in the parable of the sower, and the condition of the soil of the heart in which it is sown.

That it is all God who decides who is saved and not saved? If so, then why is God judging mankind? That would be like having a judgment for wolves or lions for eating people. They are only acting on instinct, and they cannot be held accountable at a judgment. A judgment of man assumes that man has to answer to God for his actions (Whether they be bad or good). To argue otherwise is to simply go down the road of illogical non-sense. So yes. Man has free will to either choose God or not choose God. If this was not the case, then there could be no judgment where God condemns man.
I believe, that fundamentally, the problem in the heart of mankind is a false and corrupt image of god, which needs to be replaced with a pure and True Image of God. This is why a True Image of God is sent to believe in, and be transformed through faith in this True Image. So with this in mind, to say that we have a freewill to choose God or not does not address the context, wherein only when the image we place with the term 'God' is not perceived as pure and Holy, would we even consider to choose otherwise. For example, consider this scripture:

Joshua 24:15, choose you this day whom ye will serve...

Many are familiar with this scripture, yet how many people notice that this "choice" can only exist if the imagery is corrupt to begin with. Wherefore the scripture actually begins in this context that is underlined: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord choose you this day whom ye will serve...

However, I believe I do understand the point you wish to make(Why would God judge us if we can't choose to do good or bad of our own free will?)
So including the realization in Romans 1:21-24, that God gave us over to the lusts of our flesh because we took credit for our wisdom and became vain through the un-thankfulness to God; The answer is that God judges us according to our judgments of others, and holds us responsible according to our own measure of judgment in whatever capacity we have to show mercy, wherein His strength is made perfect in our weakness. I therefore must see sinfulness as a disability, otherwise I must count sin as something reasonable we all could want to do.

This is why 'freewill' is an unstable term unless qualified as meaning free from hypocrisy through seeing the Truth of our weakness as vain flesh creatures, as well as the greatest Truth; That it's His Spirit that gives wisdom and empathy and causes us to walk in His righteousness. In summary, I believe that God has made it so that the lust of the flesh dies even as we suffer through the trespasses and forgive the sins of others because of the weakness of flesh. Which is what I think it means to say that the flesh is crucified with Christ even as we carry our own cross in the Spirit of Christ, who endured great suffering and death at the hands of those he prayed for and whose sin he died for.
 
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When you say that God gives us faith it sounds like a forced thing like the Calvinists believe. That they were once an unbeliever, and poof, they are now a believer and cannot help that fact. Is this what you mean by God giving a person faith?

As for Jesus being the author of our faith: I take that to mean that Jesus is the One who knocked on the door of my heart, but I had to respond and let Him in. I take that to mean that Jesus paid the price for the sins of the entire world and that He can give me life if I abide with Him. But it is a daily thing and not a guarantee. I must choose this day every day in whom I will serve. We are to draw near to God and He will draw near to us. God is not going to force us to be with Him. Jesus can help me to overcome and to be a finisher of the faith but I have to want that and do what is good and pleasing in His sight, too. Jesus is not going to finish the race for me and or without me. Jesus is not going to fight the good fight of faith for me and or without me (See: 1 Timothy 6:12).

Did the the Samaritan "force" himself on the man left for dead on the side of the road by robbers?

Does the lifeguard "force" themselves on the drowning man when they swim out into the water, rescue him, and then gives them CPR?

Does the physician "force" themselves on the victim when they perform an emergency life-saving operation?

Should doctors, lifeguards, etc need to ask for permission for the person they are trying to save to save them?

Or is the good work of rescue, healing, reviving, etc a selfless act and work that is accomplished for the benefit of the victim, the left-for-dead, the dying, etc?

It's not a matter of God "forcing" anything. It's a matter of God saving us.

God didn't ask our permission to send His only-begotten Son, Christ didn't ask our permission to suffer under Pontius Pilate, be crucified, and buried. But He did that, He did that for us. God did all of this, for us, because He loves us.

A good father doesn't ask his tantrum-throwing toddler if the toddler wants to live, a good father gives himself away to the toddler (even in its tantrum-throwing) to care, love, protect.

God is our Father, Christ shares His Father with us through Himself, in love. That is the love of God.

That is grace. Grace doesn't seek permission, grace gives itself away freely. Loving, caring, saving, healing, sustaining.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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I see Christ as a revelation of God's Person. My testimony is that I believed because his sentiments as the Word of God come in the flesh, bear witness with the remnant of the Word of God that was already in me from birth, but had become corrupted and was dying in a hopeless and wicked world. Belief in the Christ quickened my Spirit through a renewed hope in the Eternal existence of Love/empathy for others. I wanted to believe once I understood the Gospel, and the Holy Spirit was present in that action. I think in terms of being 'convinced' and 'conviction'. I therefore would never say that I chose to believe in the Christ out of my own freewill because in my mind, and perhaps in the minds of others, it suggests I could have chosen not to believe, as if I could have not wanted to believe once the Truth was revealed. There are however impediments to the growth, such as described in the parable of the sower, and the condition of the soil of the heart in which it is sown.

But this reality is true for others as we read in 2 Thessalonians 2:10 (Which is a verse that many Christians today do not accept).

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

They let their own thoughts rule over what this above verse plainly says.

Also, you are not dealing with the concept of God judging men. A judgment of men by God does not make any sense if they had no control over their own actions. That would like kicking a dog who has an uncontrollable pooping problem because it was sick when the master could simply just take the animal to the vet to get it treated instead.

You said:
I believe, that fundamentally, the problem in the heart of mankind is a false and corrupt image of god, which needs to be replaced with a pure and True Image of God. This is why a True Image of God is sent to believe in, and be transformed through faith in this True Image. So with this in mind, to say that we have a freewill to choose God or not does not address the context, wherein only if the image we place with the term 'God' is not perceived as pure and Holy, would we even consider to choose otherwise. For example, consider this scripture:

Joshua 24:15, choose you this day whom ye will serve...

Many are familiar with this scripture, yet how many people notice that this "choice" can only exist if the imagery is corrupt to begin with. Wherefore the scripture actually begins in this context that is underlined: And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord choose you this day whom ye will serve...
Unbelieving men are without excuse of the existence of God (Which would even include believing in His eternal Godhead, i.e. His triune nature) (See: Romans 1:18-23). There are also plenty of examples of free will involving initial salvation, as well.

“And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” (Revelation 22:17).

The Spirit and the bride of Christ are calling the reader to come and to take of the water of life FREELY. So this water is free and not coherced upon the individual in any way. It also says, WHOSOEVER WILL. This means that God is not forcing anyone to believe here. It is WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take of the water of life FREELY (and not under compulsion because they are mind wiped to worship God beyond their own free will).

You said:
However, I believe I do understand the point you wish to make(Why would God judge us if we can't choose to do good or bad of our own free will?)
So including the realization in Romans 1:21-24, that God gave us over to the lusts of our flesh because we took credit for our wisdom and became vain through the un-thankfulness to God; The answer is that God judges us according to our judgments of others, and holds us responsible according to our own measure of judgment in whatever capacity we have to show mercy, wherein His strength is made perfect in our weakness. I therefore must see sinfulness as a disability, otherwise I must count sin as something reasonable we all could want to do.

This is non-sense. God is going to judge the wicked and condemn them. The books will be opened and they will be judged according to their works. They can only be held accountable if they refused the love of the truth as 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says.

You said:
This is why 'freewill' is an unstable term unless qualified as meaning free from hypocrisy through seeing the Truth of our weakness as vain flesh creatures, as well as the greatest Truth; That it's His Spirit that gives wisdom and empathy and causes us to walk in His righteousness. In summary, I believe that God has made it so that the lust of the flesh dies even as we suffer through the trespasses and forgive the sins of others because of the weakness of flesh. Which is what I think it means to say that the flesh is crucified with Christ even as we carry our own cross in the Spirit of Christ, who endured great suffering and death at the hands of those he prayed for and whose sin he died for.

I think Calvinism is a lack of not wanting to take responsiblity. Jesus said if we do not receive His words those words will judge us on the last day in John 12:48. Jesus says everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27). In Calvinism: These things would be false scare tactics for the saved, and they woud be meaningless words to those who are not Elect or chosen to salvation. But we know that 2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that those who perish are perishing because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. It's not as you say or as the Calvinists say.
 
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Did the the Samaritan "force" himself on the man left for dead on the side of the road by robbers?

Does the lifeguard "force" themselves on the drowning man when they swim out into the water, rescue him, and then gives them CPR?

Does the physician "force" themselves on the victim when they perform an emergency life-saving operation?

Should doctors, lifeguards, etc need to ask for permission for the person they are trying to save to save them?

Or is the good work of rescue, healing, reviving, etc a selfless act and work that is accomplished for the benefit of the victim, the left-for-dead, the dying, etc?

It's not a matter of God "forcing" anything. It's a matter of God saving us.

God didn't ask our permission to send His only-begotten Son, Christ didn't ask our permission to suffer under Pontius Pilate, be crucified, and buried. But He did that, He did that for us. God did all of this, for us, because He loves us.

A good father doesn't ask his tantrum-throwing toddler if the toddler wants to live, a good father gives himself away to the toddler (even in its tantrum-throwing) to care, love, protect.

God is our Father, Christ shares His Father with us through Himself, in love. That is the love of God.

That is grace. Grace doesn't seek permission, grace gives itself away freely. Loving, caring, saving, healing, sustaining.

-CryptoLutheran

I believe babies who die at birth are saved. I believe that a man on his death bed can just believe on the name of the Son of God and be saved in his last seconds of life. I believe a man can die and come back from the dead and then repent of their sins to the Lord and be saved. So the analogies you give are of these things. So while these analogies are true for children and or those who are dead, the truth that God forcing Himself upon all is not the loving God of the Bible. For can a man force his love upon another woman if she does not want that love? Would it be true love if he brainwashed her to love him? No. She would have to truly love him of her own free will in order for it to be true love. The highest form of love is not forced. This is why God gave Adam and Eve free will the test in the garden. God wanted to see if they would love him of their own free will. They failed, and so God needed to be their go-between in helping them to love Him. God did not all of a sudden mind wipe Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity to obey God. I mean, why on Earth does God get angry at sin if God forces His love upon people? If man has no control over what He does or if God can simply mind wipe a person to love Him, then God should never ever get upset. So what you believe is highly illogical.
 
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ViaCrucis

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I believe babies who die at birth are saved.

So God "forces" salvation upon infants who die at birth, and that's fine; but God "forcing" salvation on other people is bad?

I believe that a man on his death bed can just believe on the name of the Son of God and be saved in his last seconds of life.

As do I.

I believe a man can die and come back from the dead and then repent of their sins to the Lord and be saved.

As do I.

So the analogies you give are of these things. So while these analogies are true for children and or those who are dead, the truth that God forcing Himself upon all is not the loving God of the Bible.

Really? I think you should pay more attention to your Bible.

God chose Abraham, Abraham didn't earn God's favor.

Jacob certainly didn't do anything to earn God's favor, and yet God chose Jacob.

Moses was an orphan who murdered an Egyptian and then fled, God chose Moses. In fact Moses actively tried to resist God's call, and yet God still chose Moses and through Moses rescued Israel from captivity and slavery in Egypt.

God chose the shepherd boy David to succeed Saul as king, and promised that through the line of David would come the Messiah, the redeemer of Israel and the world.

God used Cyrus to free His people from captivity in Babylon.

God is the One who did these things. God is proactive. God does things, and He says things, and the things He says and does are not impotent. When God acts, things happen; when God speaks, what He says comes to pass.

For can a man force his love upon another woman if she does not want that love? Would it be true love if he brainwashed her to love him? No.

Then it's a good thing I don't believe God is like a man forcing himself on a woman and brainwashing her. That would, indeed, be quite twisted.

She would have to truly love him of her own free will in order for it to be true love.

We love because He first loved us.

It is God's love, God's grace, God's kindness regenerating us, giving us faith that we can, in turn, respond to Him in love.

God doesn't wait for sinners who hate Him to suddenly start loving Him. He loves them first, and it is the power of His love that transforms the sinner's cold, dead, rusty heart into a living, beating heart full of life.

I love God, it is a love that is free, not coerced. But that love did not originate in me, it is not a result of my own sinful lusts and sinful thoughts and wayward feelings stumbling in the dark. God gave me a new heart, God raised this dead heart from the grave when He clothed me with His own Son, and rescued me out of the darkness of my own sin and death and reconciled me to Himself by giving me, and placing me in, Jesus Christ.

God did that. And when I think about what God has done for me I cannot help but pray that God teach me, day by day, how to love.

Praying that God continue to crucify my flesh, my sinful will, that He tear down the walls and barricades of pride, of fear, of faithlessness; that He renew me day by day, that He sustains me moment by moment.

Not that I might earn my way to paradise or some such silliness. But that I might actually live like a child of God and a citizen of the Kingdom here in the midst of my neighbors. That I might see the man who is hungry, and give him something to eat.

I pray that God continue His work in my life, conforming me to the image of Christ, that I might continue to carry the cross of discipleship which Christ has called me to carry--and how to carry it with joy. God has given us the privilege of loving others even as He has so graciously loved us.

God has thrown Himself away in love, giving Himself away to us and to the whole world. And He now invites us to go and do the same--to give ourselves away, the lives that we live here are lives lived in sacrifice, a calling to be living sacrifices, to minister, serve, and love all people, and to care for all of creation.

The highest form of love is not forced. This is why God gave Adam and Eve free will the test in the garden. God wanted to see if they would love him of their own free will. They failed, and so God needed to be their go-between in helping them to love Him. God did not all of a sudden mind wipe Adam and Eve and the rest of humanity to obey God.

You think it was a test? I think the garden, the earth, life itself is a gift. The Fall in the Garden is man's taking God's gifts and throwing them back in His face and saying, "Not Your will, but my will be done".

Man does not need a therapist or a life coach to get better. Man needs a Savior who actually fixes the problems, who actually intends to take all the broken pieces of the world and put them back together, and make them brighter and better. That's why we look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the Age to Come. And that work has begun already, in Christ, the firstfruits of the resurrection, and it is a work that has begun in us by beginning the work of new creation in us, and which will become complete and perfect at the resurrection on the Last Day when God makes all things new and God is all in all.

I mean, why on Earth does God get angry at sin if God forces His love upon people?

It is because God loves people unconditionally that He is angry with sin. But His anger against sin is not God raging against us; because God's way of dealing with us is to send Jesus Christ and suffer and die for us. Because God's way of being God is to love us--we who sin against Him and one another. God loves sinners, He has chosen to love sinners. He loves us not because of anything we have done, or because of who we are--He loves us because of who He is.

If man has no control over what He does

Man has no control over what God does.
But man certainly does have control over what man does. I am responsibile for my sins, no one else is. God, rather than casting me away, loves me. God loves me even though I'm a sinner. God loves me in my worst. Because that's who God is.

or if God can simply mind wipe a person to love Him,

He doesn't.

then God should never ever get upset. So what you believe is highly illogical.

You are engaging in a number of straw man arguments, and making a lot of assumptions about what I believe which I don't.

Also, it's not about believing what is logical, it's about believing the Gospel. If the Gospel were "logical" then it wouldn't be foolishness. But the cross is foolishness to the wise, and weakness to the strong; because God chose the weak and foolish things to confound the strong and the wise. Nevertheless, Christ is the Wisdom and Power of God. So with foolish things God shows forth His wisdom, and with weak things shows forth His power.

It is in the weakness, shame, foolishness, and lowliness of the cross that God makes Himself known to us. God Himself loving the world with arms outstretched and hands nailed to a crossbeam crying out, "Forgive them".

God demonstrates His love in this way, while we were still lost sinners Christ died for us. Christ died for you.

Death swallowed Jesus, the Grave consumed Him--and then He broke down the ancient doors, trampled down the devil's skull, bound the strong man, and set captives free. He rose from the dead, trampling down death by death, and to those in the grave giving life.

And this is yours, not because of anything you chose, or willed, or accomplished. But because it's what Jesus did, for you. Because that's who He is.

God loves you. You don't have to bear the burden of guilt that makes you feel like you have to earn His love, Christ has unfastened that burden of guilt from your back and taken it upon Himself on the cross.

"How deep the Father’s love for us,
How vast beyond all measure,
That He should give His only Son
To make a wretch His treasure.
How great the pain of searing loss –
[The Lord takes our burden],
As wounds which mar the Chosen One
Bring many sons to glory.

Behold the Man upon a cross,
My sin upon His shoulders;
Ashamed, I hear my mocking voice
Call out among the scoffers.
It was my sin that held Him there
Until it was accomplished;
His dying breath has brought me life –
I know that it is finished.

I will not boast in anything,
No gifts, no power, no wisdom;
But I will boast in Jesus Christ,
His death and resurrection.
Why should I gain from His reward?
I cannot give an answer;
But this I know with all my heart –
His wounds have paid my ransom.
"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Some Calvinists will claim that God grants repentance in the sense that God enables a person to be able to repent. Lets read the verses (that they think teaches that).

2 Timothy 2:24-26


And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.​

Acts of the Apostles 5:30-31:

“‘The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.’”​

Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18:

“‘Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?’ When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, ‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.’”​
However, "the simple meaning" of God granting repentance is God giving the opportunity to be saved, for both Jews and Gentiles alike.
That would be the simple meaning to make it agree with one's theology instead of the text.

The definition of repentance is a "change of mind," not the opportunity for a change of mind.
God granted an actual change of mind.
(Been there, done that. . .)
However, when Calvinists read “grant them repentance,” they see “Irresistible Grace,”
Convenient misrepresentation to support your theology.
and for secretly elect Jews and secretly elect Gentiles. But this is simply not the case. It's merely God giving men opportunities or chances to repent.
On what authority do you change the grammar of the text to give the text your personal meaning rather than the stated grammar of the text?
The Good News Translation says in 2 Timothy 2,

“who is gentle as you correct your opponents,
for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent
and come to know the truth.”
(2 Timothy 2:25) (GNT).​
And the Good News Translation is not what the Greek states.
On what authority do you change
the grammar of the Greek text: "perhaps God may give them repentance"
to the grammar: perhaps God may give them the opportunity to repent,
which grammatically is not the same meaning at all?
All this rewriting of the God-breathed Scriptures to fit one's personal theology is so tiring.
 
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renniks

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I don’t quite understand. There is several verses in romans that sounds a lot like predestination. There is also a ton of verses that talk about making the choice to follow Christ. I want to believe free will. The idea that God decides who is gonna follow Him and who He’s gonna throw in Hell I find disturbing. If you support predestination please explain the verses that speak about free will. Ex John 3:16. That’s just one of many. And if your for free will please explain the verses that sound like presentation. Ex Romans 9:21-23. Also I know about Armineaism but Romans 9:21-23 doesn’t sound like it’s based on our choices
Romans 9 isn't even about personal salvation.
The issue Paul is addressing is whether or not “the word of God had failed” (Rom 9:6).... had God’s promise to be the God of the Jews and to keep them as his covenant people been rescinded?
 
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