Free will or predestination?

Brother_Kane · Jul 28, 2021

I don’t quite understand. There is several verses in romans that sounds a lot like predestination. There is also a ton of verses that talk about making the choice to follow Christ. I want to believe free will. The idea that God decides who is gonna follow Him and who He’s gonna throw in Hell I find disturbing. If you support predestination please explain the verses that speak about free will. Ex John 3:16. That’s just one of many. And if your for free will please explain the verses that sound like presentation. Ex Romans 9:21-23. Also I know about Armineaism but Romans 9:21-23 doesn’t sound like it’s based on our choices

Sabertooth · Jul 28, 2021

Procrastination.

(Are you familiar with "paralysis by analysis...?")

Dive, Steven Curtis Chapman (1999)

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

Romans 9 is not isolated from the rest of the book of Romans.
The whole point of Romans 9 was written with the Jew in mind in how they were trying to earn salvation by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God's grace through Jesus Christ), and how they found favor with God based on their nationality (in that they were God's people, Israel).

Romans 9:6-8 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of salvific nationalism.
Romans 9:9-16 is a refutation of the Israelite's false belief of “Works Alone Salvationism” (without Jesus and His grace). The passage also adds in saying that salvation is by him who calls [upon the name of the Lord Jesus] (Compare Romans 9:11 with Romans 10:13).
Romans 9:17-18 sets up the dilemma for the Israelite in being saved by God's grace and mercy on His terms. Pharaoh was hardened on God's terms in that we know that a person's heart is hardened by their own sin. For a believer who sins and hardens their heart, they can then fall into unbelief and depart from the living God (See: Hebrews 3:12-15). Sin is the breaking of the Law or commandment (1 John 3:4). The Israelite was hardening their heart against God on account of their sin or disobedience to the command to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
Romans 9:19 is the Israelite complaining about how can God find fault because they believe they are doing God's will as an Israelite.
Romans 9:20 A voice answers the Israelite and criticizes the Israelite. The voice asks a question from the Israelite's perspective, “Why have you made me this way [i.e. as an Israelite, a keeper of the Law]?”
When reading Romans 9:21-23, we have to keep in mind that God elects based on His foreknowledge (His future foreknowledge of what they are going to do) (1 Peter 1:1-2). The language present in this passage is reminiscent of Jeremiah 18 about how God will form the clay based upon how a nation does not hear his voice, He will turn back on the good He would do unto them. God warns Jerusalem and Judah that He frames evil them against unless they repent. Meaning, based on what we do, a person will fall into one of two categories. The resurrection of life, and the resurrection of the damned (i.e. the vessels of wrath and mercy). God will render to every man according to his deeds (See: Romans 2:6).

Romans 9:30-32 clarifies (recaps) what was being said:

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:30-32).

“...rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” (Romans 11:11).

So Romans 9 is really not talking about Calvinistic Unconditional Election.
Even the word “call” used in Romans 9 in reference to God calling does not prove that God is forcing anything upon a person. For many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 22:14).

Article source inspiration:
A Non-Calvinist Interpretation of Romans 9

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

No one will ever stand before God and claim that he is condemned because God never gave him/her the gift of faith, because all men are commanded to believe and to repent (1 John 3:23 and Acts of the Apostles 17:30). God says ”Look unto Me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth” (Isaiah 45:22). God desires all men to come unto him (1 Timothy 2:4), and men are condemned for their failure to do so because they could (John 8:24; John 3:18; 2 Thessalonians 2:10, etc.).

The Bible says that faith comes through hearing by the word of God, and this would be inaccurate if we are to understand ”faith” as a gift of God in Ephesians 2:8.

The Philippian jailer asked: ”What must I do to be saved?” (Acts of the Apostles 16:30). The response was not ”Nothing! You can’t do anything! You are dead and totally unable to respond to God until you are regenerated. You have no part in salvation. God must do it all.” Paul and Silas told the jailer that there was something that he could do and that was to believe in Lord Jesus Christ (Acts of the Apostles 16:31). Compare with how Peter answered a similar question in Acts of the Apostles 2:37-38).

Article source:
FAITH is not the gift of God in Eph. 2:8-9, but SALVATION is

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

Only Romans 9 sounds like Calvinism with a surface reading if it is read out of context. The rest of the Bible really does not read that way.

Calvinists will claim that faith is a gift from God. But...

Faith is not a gift from God.
Faith is something man must choose to exercise of his own free will.

#1. We are commanded to believe in Jesus (1 John 3:23).
#2. All men everywhere are commanded to repent (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).
#2. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
#3. You shall seek me, and find me, when you shall search for me with all your heart (Jeremiah 29:13)
#4. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
#5. When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. (Matthew 8:10).
#6. Without faith, it is impossible to please God and we are told that if we come to Him, we must believe that He exists, and He is a rewarder to those who seek Him (Hebrews 11:6).
#7. Jesus said to His disciples, “Have faith in God.” (Mark 11:22).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

Free Will in Choosing God in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me

FutureAndAHope · Jul 28, 2021

I discuss free will and predestination here, from the standpoint of believing in free will, Is Predestination real? | Everybody Matters Ministry it might give you some things to think through.

childeye 2 · Jul 28, 2021

It may be helpful to consider that "freewill' is something other than simply making a choice, since we also make choices according to determinism also. Wherefore John 3:16 indicates that whosoever will believe in the Christ will not perish, and that there exists both belief and unbelief, which is not actually a matter of a choice/decision but rather about having enough faith or not having enough faith. 'Faith' in this instance is a matter of finding the Christ to be trust worthy as in worthy of one's trust. The question I ask is why do I believe and why do others see differently? I see faith and cynicism as opposites.

Clare73 · Jul 28, 2021

The definition of free will is the power/ability to choose what one prefers/likes without external force or constraint.

Were any of your examples externally forced or constrained to do what they did not want to do?
If not, their free will to choose what they prefer was not violated, it was exercised.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

The words “predestinate,” and “predesinated” appears in the Bible (Romans 8:30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11), but it is not as the Calvinist makes them out to be. Predestinate is the same meaning as Elect and according to 1 Peter 1:1-2, we are Elected according to God's foreknowledge. Meaning if God sees that we are going to accept Jesus Christ in the future, He is going to make certain conditions or things favorable for that to happen. God can then declare ahead of time His plan of salvation for our life. God is not forcing us to be saved in any way beyond our free will choice. If such were the case, then why does God get angry at sin and evil? Psalms 7:11 says, “God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.” If Calvinism was true, God would have no need to be upset at anyone because they are all just carrying out His sovereign will. For if Calvinism was true: God could just snap His fingers and force anyone who is rebellious to believe and therefore God would no longer be angry.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

I don't believe Calvinism is in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick) whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it (When the animal has no control over it's pooping function).

That's kind of how I see Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, God is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So God is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and God has chosen this only path for them. God wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:10. It basically says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because.... THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH that they MIGHT BE SAVED. It does not say they are perishing because they were not elected. It also says that “they MIGHT be saved.” There is no “MIGHT be saved” in Unconditional Election or Calvinism.

Also, Jesus tells people basically to repent or perish in Luke 13:3. In Calvinism: The Elect are never truly in danger of ever perishing and the Non-Elect cannot repent.

Jonah 3:1-10 teaches that God told the Ninevites that they would be destroyed in 40 days, but the Ninevites repented (i.e. they sought forgiveness with God by crying out to Him, and they forsaked their evil ways). When God had seen they had forsaken their wickedness, that is when God turned back on bringing His Wrath upon that He was going to originally bring upon them. Just read the short chapter for yourself and it is clear. The Ninevites changed the situation and it was not God electing them to salvation all of a sudden (by some calvinistic means).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

@Brother_Kane

Calvinists will also throw down John 6:44 in that no man can come unto Jesus unless the Father draws them. But they fail to take into consideration the context of the very next verse.

For John 6:45 says, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”

In other words: Every man (the Jew) who has HEARD (listened to God through obeying God's commands) and has learned of the Father (loving others - Matthew 5:43-48) comes unto me (i.e. Jesus).

John 6:45 is clear in that this is not in reference to unbelieving Jews or unbelieving Gentiles. This is in reference to those Jews who had a relationship with God because they heard and learned of the Father. THESE are the ones who are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. Not just anybody!

HTacianas · Jul 28, 2021

The answer is "neither and both". What I mean by that is that predestination, sometimes "double predestination", cannot possibly be true. At least not according to the bible. For predestination to be true, we must assume that the Jews who escaped Egypt were predestined to whatever. Yet when they rebelled and worshipped the golden calf God swore to destroy them and build His people through the descendants of Moses, see Exodus 32:10. So the Jews who escaped Egypt were not predestined for anything, yet God predestined for himself to have a holy people. Even though the Book of Life may have been written since before the foundation of the world, according to both the old testament and the new, a man might be blotted out of it, see Exodus 32:33, Rev 3:5 and Rev 22:19.

So we see that predestination cannot be true, and that is the reason I reject Calvinism in its entirety. Now, if God, according to His own purposes, chose any individual at any time to have some part in His plan, and even went so far as to force them into it, that is entirely up to God. But while God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth", see 1 Timothy 2:4, it is up to each individual to respond to the calling of God.

So the answer to your question is "neither and both". Anyone offering that it is one or the other is quite frankly wrong.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 28, 2021

It wasn't an issue until the reformation, so it's a cultural interpretation.

ViaCrucis · Jul 28, 2021

These conversations usually end up becoming a debate between Calvinism on the one hand, and Arminianism on the other.

I'd recommend a third option--the Lutheran view (freely admitting my bias here).

Lutheranism accepts predestination, but reject the idea that God picks and chooses who will or will not be saved.

Predestination does not mean that God saves you, but not that other person over there. Predestination means that God chose you, in Christ, by His fully abundant and generous love for you. That's good news! God loves you, and He chose you, He gave Himself for you, Christ died for you. And He loves your neighbor, He wants you, and your neighbor, and everyone else, He sent His only-begotten Son so that anyone, everyone who trusts in Him should not perish but have life everlasting. It is the will of God that not some, but that all be saved.

God loves everyone. Christ died for everyone. This great big grace, God's uncompromising love for this world, indeed each and every single one of us sinners is such that, rather than leaving us to perish in death He gives Himself to the world, for the world, to love and rescue and redeem the world. To take hostile sinners such as you and me, and adopt us as beloved children. It's not about us climbing up that ladder to God, it's about God coming down. God came down. God always comes down.

You belong to God because Jesus claims you as His own. He claimed you on the cross, He claims you in the preaching of His Gospel, He claimed you in your baptism, and He claims you every time you receive His body and blood in the Lord's Supper. Jesus gives Himself to you, and when He gives Himself He takes hold, and rescues us.

Christ is risen from the dead.
Trampling down death by death.
And to those in the tombs,
bestowing life.

He fought hell for you. And He won. You don't need impress Him, He is yours, and you are His. That is His word, His promise to you.

God chose the weak and foolish things of the world to confound the strong and the wise. But for we who are being saved, Christ the Wisdom and the Power of God. And we should be unashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God to save all who believe, Jew and Greek, and by it God's renewing gracious justice freely justifies us through the faith we have received from Him.

God does this, has done this, for us.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesus is YHWH · Jul 28, 2021

Great song. I use to play it all the time when I went salmon fishing on the river from 99-05.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

This sounds like Universalism (i.e. that all people will eventually be saved in the end). If it is not, then please explain.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 28, 2021

Some Calvinists will claim that God grants repentance in the sense that God enables a person to be able to repent. Lets read the verses (that they think teaches that).

2 Timothy 2:24-26

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Acts of the Apostles 5:30-31:

“‘The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging Him on a cross. He is the one whom God exalted to His right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.’”

Acts of the Apostles 11:17-18:

“‘Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?’ When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, ‘Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.’”

However, the simple meaning of God granting repentance is God giving the opportunity to be saved, for both Jews and Gentiles alike. However, when Calvinists read “grant them repentance,” they see “Irresistible Grace,” and for secretly elect Jews and secretly elect Gentiles. But this is simply not the case. It's merely God giving men opportunities or chances to repent.

The Good News Translation says in 2 Timothy 2,

“who is gentle as you correct your opponents,
for it may be that God will give them the opportunity to repent
and come to know the truth.”
(2 Timothy 2:25) (GNT).

Also see: Jonah 4:11; Philippians 1:29; Acts 11:18.

Source:
Examining Calvinism

ViaCrucis · Jul 28, 2021

Salvation is by grace alone through faith, as such God saves us by giving us faith. Faith therefore saves us, not on account of our own power or ability to believe, but because faith is what God's gracious work of salvation is in our lives. It is God who gives us faith, it is not of ourselves, not by our works, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). Apart from this faith in Christ there is no salvation.

Salvation is therefore the work of God alone. We don't contribute anything, not even a "yes", all of our works, all of our ability, the entirety of our human will is stained with sin--our efforts, all of our efforts, are worthless and cannot accomplish anything.

The Shepherd doesn't ask if the lamb wants to join the sheepfold, the Shepherd reaches down and carries the lamb over His shoulders and into the salvation of the sheepfold. But the lamb can keep trying to run and run, escape and escape, always seeking to flee away from the Shepherd and the safety which He has come to give. And if we insist on continuing to flee away from the Shepherd's salvation we may find ourselves one day fleeing ourselves over the edge of a cliff into a ravine.

Therefore damnation comes not from God, but from man. Damnation comes by the power of man's efforts and will, in opposition to God and set against His kindness--fleeing headlong toward death, colluding with it day and night by our sinful injuries toward our neighbor and the rest of God's creation. Denying our very Divine Image-bearing humanity.

The way of the natural, unregenerate man is his own collusion with death, he is, Lutherans say, homo incurvatus in se, man bent or curved inward upon himself. Man seeks himself, looks inward, trying to find in himself some glory, or greatness, or power. And in doing so seeking after oneself, indulging the passions of the flesh, and despising our fellow man and the God in whose image man is, we shall find only the bitterness of the damnation which we ourselves willfully and (tragically) happily made for ourselves.

God alone saves.
Man alone damns.

-CryptoLutheran

Free will or predestination?

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