Will we meet Adam and Eve in heaven?

I believe both were saved by the Grace of God, clothed with Christs righteousness as pictured when God clothed the both of them with coats of skins Gen 3:21

Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

MMXX said:

As I understand it, according to Orthodoxy we will. This is an Orthodox depiction of Jesus taking Adam and Eve to heaven.

Click to expand...

I wonder just how "orthodox" a church is when it routinely and
systematically disobeys one of the ten commandments...
about making an "image" or "likeness" of Christ.


You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven above...


On the other hand, Jesus seems to teach that Abraham
and Isaac and Jacob and "all the saints" shall be "seen" by those
OUTSIDE the Eternal "Kingdom". How much more will they be
"seen" by those within the Eternal Kingdom of God?


Mat 8:11-12
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west,
and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the
kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be
cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and
gnashing of teeth.


Luk 13:28
There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when
ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.


Consider this:
There are so many prophecies that could NOT be understood
until the Last Saints "shall understand" Daniel's "mysteries" at
the "time-of-the-end" [Dan 12:8-10]... and Great Tribulation
prophecies which Jesus PROMISED the Last Saints "shall see"
[Mat 24:15], in fact they will actually "see ALL these things"
regarding the fulfillment of end-time prophecies [Mat 24:33].
And these Last Saints are commanded to "prophesy again"
about the Biblical mysteries shown to them during the time
when the Seventh Trumpet "begins to sound" [Rev 10:7-11]


That would include the NAME of the Antichrist who is "revealed"
to them, as is the great "falling away" [2Th2] and all the "signs"
recorded about the people on earth when the Lord Returns.


And consider this:
Those Last Saints not only "see ALL these things" fulfilled
when He is "at the door"... they are also "changed" without
dying - in the "twinkling" of an eye. Many previous saints will
have an interest in their experiences - just as they will have
many questions for Jewish saints and Christian saints and
saints in the Pre-Flood Kingdom - Adam, Enoch, Noah, etc.


Jim

Blade said:

Far as I know since its not written they had no clue what SIN was.

Click to expand...

Right... Adam and Eve had NO IDEA that rebelling against
God's commands was a "sin". That's a good one!


Gen 2:16
And the LORD God commanded the man, saying...


Gen 3:2-3
And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit
of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is
in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it,
neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Gen 3:8
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden
in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves
from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Adam and Eve certainly knew they disobeyed God's command.
They may not have known this is CALLED "SIN" but there can be
no doubt they knew it was rebellion against God AND there would
be a price for disobeying God (in that day they would die).


Original sin was a CHOICE they made to rebel.
And there was a PRICE for rebelling and disobeying
the commands of their Creator. Did they know intentional
rebellion and disobedience is CALLED "sin"?


What does that matter?
They intentionally disobeyed God.
Which is WHY they tried to hide from Him.
They knew they intentionally disobeyed God,
even if they did not know that disobedience had
a specific name of... "sin".


Jim

In addition to the icon of the Harrowing of Hell, the following hymn is sung on Good Friday:

Greatly rejoice, O creation! And everyone who was born on earth, be glad! Hades, the enemy, has been despoiled. Let the women with their ointments come to meet Me. I am rescuing Adam and Eve and all mankind. And on the third day I will rise again.

GreekOrthodox said:

In addition to the icon of the Harrowing of Hell, the following hymn is sung on Good Friday:

Greatly rejoice, O creation! And everyone who was born on earth, be glad! Hades, the enemy, has been despoiled. Let the women with their ointments come to meet Me. I am rescuing Adam and Eve and all mankind. And on the third day I will rise again.

Click to expand...

Of course a "hymn" is only the works of a man.
Do you understand the CONTEXT of who is "the woman"?
Do you understand the CONTEXT of "all mankind"?


If you cannot discern the CONTEXT of the who/what/when/where
of a passage - then you cannot hope to understand the meaning
of at passage... or be able to offer an "informed opinion" about
the the matter.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

Of course a "hymn" is only the works of a man.
Do you understand the CONTEXT of who is "the woman"?
Do you understand the CONTEXT of "all mankind"?


If you cannot discern the CONTEXT of the who/what/when/where
of a passage - then you cannot hope to understand the meaning
of at passage... or be able to offer an "informed opinion" about
the the matter.


Jim

Click to expand...

Our hymns ARE authoritative to us, it does not matter what you, a man, say.

This is the icon of the Fall which is displayed on the final Sunday before Lent. Thematically, we see Christ as "God walking in the Garden" casting out Adam and Eve, who are then escorted out of Paradise by an angel. Some of the hymns of the Matins service are sung from Adam's point of view, so that we are the ones being cast out of Paradise. So we identify with Adam and Eve both in the Fall and in the Resurrection. Even in our memorial services, this identification with Adam is mentioned with this verse.

GreekOrthodox said:

Our hymns ARE authoritative to us,,,

Click to expand...

That is concerning because the BIBLE (the word of God)
claims complete and total "authority" and works of men
(like the hymns men make) are ADDING to His Word and,
therefore, they have ZERO "authority".

it does not matter what you, a man, say.

Click to expand...

Now, that is hilarious...
Out of one side of your mouth - you say it does not matter
what men say... and out of the other side of your mouth...
you claim that the hymns (written by men - not God)
are considered "authoritative".


You cannot have it BOTH WAYS.
Either the work/words of men are NOT authoritative,
or the work/words of men (in hymns) ARE authoritative.
Which one is it?


Jim

Honestly, your comments had nothing to do with the subject. I'm tired of the disrespect that Protestants give to those of us in the Apostolic churches.

Carl Emerson said:

I am interested in your take on the salvation of the first couple or otherwise...

Reasons for your answer would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

Dear Carl Emerson,
No one who lived prior to the New Covenant has been saved yet, and that includes Adam and Eve. Some of the Old Testament fathers were justified by Faith, but that is not salvation. They must still be baptized by the Holy Spirit, have their spiritual blindness healed so that they can find the knowledge of God, be judged & tested and then finally be glorified with a spiritual body.

This is what Paul says of the Old Testament fathers:

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is no evidence in scripture that Adam and Eve were ever justified by faith. Those who were justified by faith, still DO NOT receive the promise of being an "heir" or "First-Fruit" of the harvest of mankind. Their names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life. They simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world. Because of this truth, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the rest of the lost. Then through the work of Christ and His Bride, they, along with everyone else, will be made "perfect" by the end of that final age.

Then this verse will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

Let me get this straight. Adam and Eve ( the parents of humanity) don't have salv-ation because their names are not written in the book of life? (totally speculative) Therefore ...
The reasoning is that they did not recieve a good report? Hebrews 11:39-40 However some of the OTF were justified but still not saved?

I would go so far as saying that being justified is not the same as being sanctified. With that analysis you would have to remove Hebrews 11 from the bible.

Their propitiation wasn’t accepted untill Christ.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear Carl Emerson,
No one who lived prior to the New Covenant has been saved yet, and that includes Adam and Eve. Some of the Old Testament fathers were justified by Faith, but that is not salvation. They must still be baptized by the Holy Spirit, have their spiritual blindness healed so that they can find the knowledge of God, be judged & tested and then finally be glorified with a spiritual body.

Click to expand...

Clearly the Bible disagrees with your private interpretation.
You are actually suggesting that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob
are not yet saved - they were not chosen or elected before the
foundation of the world AND they must (in the future) have their
"spiritual blindness healed so that they can find... be tested..."


So you think all the OT Saints must DO SOMETHING
to become saved. So... Moses and Elijah are NOT SAVED yet...
as they are "talking to" Christ? And they must DO SOMETHING
in the future... in order to be saved?


Mat 17:2-3
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them
Moses and Elias talking with him.


For you to suggest that Noah and Enoch and Moses and Abraham
and Isaac and Jacob DID NOT have their names written in the Book
of life ("before the foundation of the world") not only requires they
(not God) decided to be God's chosen in the OT... and they must
WORK (in the future) to attain their salvation.


I wonder... do you also believe that Jesus DID NOT pay for their
sins... He will pay for their sins sometime in the future?
Please explain how their sins were NOT PAID
during the Atonement.


Do you have any SCRIPTURE teaching the OT Saints
DID SOMETHING to be chosen by God in the OT and
now they must DO SOMETHING (again) to be saved.

This is what Paul says of the Old Testament fathers:

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Click to expand...

(1) First:
It seems that you are implying that you think the "promise"
is talking about the indwelling Holy Spirit - but the text indicates
the CONTEXT of that "promise" is really the eternal Kingdom.
Even the "born again" NT Saints wait for that same "promise".


Heb 11:10
For he looked for a city which hath foundations,
whose builder and maker is God.


Rom 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits
of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


(2) Secondly:
Why in the world would you assume the "us" (below)
represents the indwelling Holy Spirit (instead of the completion
of the Eternal Bride?). Again, you fail to discern the CONTEXT
of "be made perfect".


... that they without us should not be made perfect.

Those who were justified by faith, still DO NOT receive the promise of being an "heir" or "First-Fruit" of the harvest of mankind. Their names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Click to expand...

Do you have any SCRIPTURE that says Moses or Elijah (see above)
did not have their names in the Book of Life when they are already
shown to be "talking" with Jesus?

They simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world. Because of this truth, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire with
the rest of the lost.

Click to expand...

So Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Noah and Enoch
and Elijah and all the OT Saints are "cast alive" into the
"Lake of Fire"... please provide ONE VERSE that teaches
this notion.

Then through the work of Christ and His Bride, they, along with everyone else, will be made "perfect" by the end of that final age.

Click to expand...

So you think that every man born will be "made perfect"
even after JESUS clearly explained that some men were
NEVER MEANT to "perceive" the Gospel or "understand"
the Gospel or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".


When Jesus PROMISED that some men were NEVER MEANT
to "have their sins forgiven" He teaches a doctrine different
from what (it seems) you are suggesting.


Mar 4:10-12
And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve
asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given
to know the mystery of the kingdom of God:
but unto them that are without,
all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see,
and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand;
LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and
their sins should be forgiven them.


Do you imagine that Jesus was LYING when He taught
the unsaved will suffer eternal torment? And Jesus was
somehow mistaken when He taught some men were
NEVER MEANT "to have their sins forgiven"?


Jim

~Cassia~ said:

Let me get this straight. Adam and Eve ( the parents of humanity) don't have salv-ation because their names are not written in the book of life? (totally speculative) Therefore ...
The reasoning is that they did not recieve a good report? Hebrews 11:39-40 However some of the OTF were justified but still not saved?

I would go so far as saying that being justified is not the same as being sanctified. With that analysis you would have to remove Hebrews 11 from the bible.

Their propitiation wasn’t accepted untill Christ.

Click to expand...

Still waiting on an answer.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear Carl Emerson,
No one who lived prior to the New Covenant has been saved yet, and that includes Adam and Eve. Some of the Old Testament fathers were justified by Faith, but that is not salvation. They must still be baptized by the Holy Spirit, have their spiritual blindness healed so that they can find the knowledge of God, be judged & tested and then finally be glorified with a spiritual body.

This is what Paul says of the Old Testament fathers:

Heb 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

There is no evidence in scripture that Adam and Eve were ever justified by faith. Those who were justified by faith, still DO NOT receive the promise of being an "heir" or "First-Fruit" of the harvest of mankind. Their names are not in the Lamb's Book of Life. They simply were not chosen from the foundation of the world. Because of this truth, they will be cast into the Lake of Fire with the rest of the lost. Then through the work of Christ and His Bride, they, along with everyone else, will be made "perfect" by the end of that final age.

Then this verse will be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:

Clearly the Bible disagrees with your private interpretation.

Click to expand...

Dear Jim and Cassia,
As I said, no one outside of the Elect of this age are in the Lamb's Book of Life. They are the heirs of the promise and First-Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. I'll explain with scripture below.

As for the Old Testament fathers who are justified by their faith, they were not chosen to be First-Fruits and are not yet saved. John the Baptist is said to be the "greatest born of women" and even he did not make it to the Kingdom of Heaven where the Elect dwell.

Mat 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

John the Baptist, near the end of his life, wasn't even sure who Jesus was. John remained spiritually blind just as all mankind is from birth.

Mat 11:2-3 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples, And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

John, like all the OT fathers, did not have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain of the Spirit). When a believer receives the Latter Rain, Christ heals their spiritual blindness and gives them eyes that can "see".

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The first of mankind to receive to the Latter Rain were those in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. When a believer receives the Latter Rain, they are born again but they are still not yet made "perfect".

There is a pathway to salvation that Christ has laid down for all mankind to follow. God is not a respecter of persons so everyone must follow the path.

I'll start with the "big picture" and work my way into the pathway of salvation.

Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is "flawed". It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ, while in a physical body, was not. Christ was spiritually perfect and this empowered Him to overcome this carnal world and never sin. But with mankind, we cannot overcome this world and we frequently sin as a result of our spiritual flaw.

It is not man's fault that we were created imperfect. God is responsible for our spiritual condition that causes us to sin.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

So why did God make us spiritually flawed?

Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring (sons of God), He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster (Satan) to destroy.

Because of our spiritually flawed & carnally minded condition, we ALL become sinful, evil creatures who cannot understand God or even seek after Him.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God. And because of such, we can't understand Him or want to seek His ways.

On the other hand, Satan was created to feed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.

When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly become carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything else but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God, of course knew this and it was His plan all along for Adam and Eve to sin. And just as Adam and Eve sinned, so do all of their offspring. Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.

But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and God wants children, He created a pathway for mankind to be restored to Himself. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we must pay. Our spiritually flawed vessel must be destroyed and made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. We do not have the ability to make a "free will" choice to accept Christ. No man has that ability in our created condition. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us and change us from within FIRST. He does this work by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

When Christ does this work within us, we ALL fall to the ground and call Him "Lord" (just as Paul "typed" for us). NO EXCEPTIONS.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

But herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (Eph 5:32). The Early Rain is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit. Because of such, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and are still controlled by our carnal natures. Satan then comes to us and deceives us. Satan masquerades as an "angel of light (Christ) and causes us to accept his false truth (Mat 13:33, Wheat and Tares parable). Since we are deceived, we believe that we are receiving the truth of God. Christ explained this process below:

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation

Evil spirits represent Satan bringing his false truth to us. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". This worsened spiritual condition is called the Man of Sin.

After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound that came from the sword (Word of God) of Christ is healed. We then remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. This Beast represents mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded spiritual condition. At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to our own "works" for our salvation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death. And from this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:

Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will". But in truth, we did not. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord".

What I have stated above is part of the pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it since our vessel must be destroyed before Christ will make us into a new vessel.

Because a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die or Christ comes to them a second time. This is typed for us by Joshua and Caleb and Israel wandering in the wilderness for 40 years.

If a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world, Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come to them again and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes this second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the New Man is born. It is at this point the chosen believer begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to maturity as a son of God.

What I have stated above is an abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind. But Christ will NOT leave the rest of mankind to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

God does not fail and He never makes mistakes. What mankind is experiencing now is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Why? Because we are made spiritually blind and cannot know what God is doing until we receive the Latter Rain.

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is His "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. We will all be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the path and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.

Joe

~Cassia~ said:

Still waiting on an answer.

Click to expand...

Cassia,
Please see my response to 5thKingdom above.
Joe

FaithWillDo said:

Dear Jim and Cassia,
As I said, no one outside of the Elect of this age are in the Lamb's Book of Life. They are the heirs of the promise and First-Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind. I'll explain with scripture below.

Click to expand...

Let me explain a basic and essential reality to you...
Your response was meaningless because you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED
the Scriptures I provided to you. You cannot even pretend to have
found Biblical Truth when you are forced to intentionally ignore
passages that contradict your "theory".


This is one of the most BASIC and ESSENTIAL elements
to "Bible Study"... you cannot cherry pick the passages you like,
and INTENTIONALLY IGNORE the Scriptures that contradict your
presuppositions.


---------


Your "theory" is contradicted in SCRIPTURE.
You do not CHANGE what Scripture says by ignoring it.
People intentionally ignore HARMONY OF ALL RELATED SCRIPTURE
because they cannot fit their "theory" of the Gospel into the text...
so they just ignore what contradicts their "theory".


But the only MEASURE of Biblical truth is the HARMONY
of ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES... not just the ones you
cherry pick. Nobody can take your "theory" seriously
when you REFUSE to address contradicting Scripture.


In Romans 8 you do not even understand what the "creature"
represents - so it is impossible for you to offer an "informed
opinion" on the passage. In fact EACH passage you offer is
contradicted by other passages and it is incumbent on YOU
to HARMONIZE your "theory" with ALL RELATED passages...
not just the ones you want to cherry pick.


Let's try this:
As a RESPONSE to the Scriptures I provided to REFUTE
your synergistic heresy... simply ADDRESS those Scriptures
instead of running away from them to support your "theory".


Show how the passages I provided HARMONIZE with your theory.
If you CANNOT do that... then you have demonstrated that your
"theory" contradicts the Scriptures (you intentionally ignore).


You did not "converse" with me because you IGNORED
the Scriptures I provided. If you want to be taken seriously
you cannot IGNORE the Scriptures I provided... the Truth is not
changed because you decide to ignore it.


So... if you will be so good as to ANSWER me directly
(instead of deflecting) then we can continue. Otherwise
you are only having a "conversation" with yourself and
you are only fooling yourself.


Again... the process used by Saints for thousands of years is:


(1) First, you presented a "theory" and offered some Scriptures
to support your theory. You have done that.


(2) Then I presented some SCRIPTURES that contradict your theory.
These Scripture cannot be IGNORED if you want to be taken seriously
and if you want to have your "theory" to harmonize with the Bible.


(3) Now you need to ADDRESS the Scriptures I provided....
or else you cannot be taken seriously because you have not
addressed the (Biblical) CONTRADICTIONS to your theory.


Sir... you must understand that ALL FALSE DOCTRINES can
harmonize with SOME (cherry picked) verses... but that is not,
and has never been, the MEASURE of Biblical Truth. To prove
Biblical Truth you must be able to HARMONIZE (not some but)
ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES.


----


Go back to my post (#32) and simply RESPOND to the Scriptures
in the post. You are only pretending to know something when you
are forced to IGNORE SCRIPTURES in order to protect your theory.


You only repeat the false doctrines of a "synergestic" heresy
when you cite 1 Co 15 or 1 Tim 2.... because you ISOLATE
those verses from the rest of Scripture. That is how all heresy
is developed - ignoring contradicting passages.


I GAVE YOU Scripture saying some men were NEVER MEANT
to be saved... it does not "fit" your synergistic heresy so you
are forced to INTENTIONALLY IGNORE that reality and
repeat the verses you cherry picked.


That is what you have done...
You have NOT responded to the SCRIPTURES I provided
because they contradict your "theory". That is how you
PROTECT your "theory" from being destroyed by Scripture.


This is NOT a new tactic.
This is what people MUST do to protect their "theory"...
they must intentionally ignore any/all SCRIPTURES that
contradict their presumption.


-------------


So... if you will go back and actually ADDRESS the Scriptures
I gave you - then we can have a "conversation". If you only
want to talk about the passages you have cherry picked then
you are not only showing that you have not yet found Biblical
TRUTH... and you KNOW THAT because you run away from the
Scriptures that contradict you.


Nothing new here.
That is the common reaction of people who can harmonize
SOME Scriptures into their theory... but not ALL SCRIPTURES.
So you are FORCED to intentionally ignore what the Bible says.


You actually "take away" from the "whole counsel of God"
in order to promote a theory that cannot stand the test
of harmonizing with ALL related passages.


Please do not delude yourself by thinking you proved something
by INTENTIONALLY IGNORING the Scriptures I provided to you.
And do not pretend you can be taken seriously when you
INTENTIONALLY IGNORE passages that contradict.


When you have REFUTED the Scriptures I provided to you,
THEN (and only then) can we move on to address the passages
you offer in the latest post... which also contradict Scripture.
Because you do not understand the CONTEXT of the
passages you cite.


I can show you how your latest post contradicts Scripture...
but it is a waste of my time if you will CONTINUE to just IGNORE
any/all passages that contradict your theory.


So... simply RESPOND to the VERSES I presented in post #32.
And THEN you can offer other passages - assuming your can
harmonize the SCRIPTURES I provided to you, because if you
cannot harmonize those passages (and you cannot) then you
are only pretending to yourself and you are NOT having any
type of "conversation" at all.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

Let me explain a basic and essential reality to you...
Your response was meaningless because you INTENTIONALLY IGNORED
the Scriptures I provided to you. You cannot even pretend to have
found Biblical Truth when you are forced to intentionally ignore
passages that contradict your "theory".

Click to expand...

BTW... you do not have a CLUE what the "early rain"
and the "later rain" represent. But we cannot even have
a discussion about that subject because you just IGNORE
whatever Scriptures you are shown that contradict your
current synergistic heresy.

Address the SCRIPTURES I already gave you in post #32...
and THEN we can move on to other subjects. I can easily
show you do not have a CLUE about the fulfillment of the
early and latter rain... but you must FIRST address all the
SCRIPTURES I sent you - and you intentionally ignored.


Jim

5thKingdom said:

Let me explain a basic and essential reality to you...

Click to expand...

Dear Jim,
I did not ignore your scriptures. I read them and saw that you were misunderstanding them. God's Word never contradicts itself.

I will respond to that previous post now and will respond to your comments in this post later.

Here is your first verse:
Mat 17:2-3 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

Moses and Elias are dead and in the grave waiting for the resurrection. This event was a VISION. It was not real.

Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

This is no different than the vision John saw when he wrote the book of Revelation. It was not real either. The physical symbols John saw represent a spiritual truth.

This is what Paul said about Christ's spiritual language:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Scripture is taught with "spirit" words (John 6:63). They have meanings that are different from what man's wisdom teaches. To understand those words, we must have our spiritual blindness healed. Only then will the truth of scripture open up.

Here is Christ's teaching about His spiritual language and when He heals a believer's blindness:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in "type" by healing a blind man. This "type" is the same "type" which Christ uses in the Old Testament to teach spiritual truths.

In verses 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This is the same time when an unbeliever is "called out from the world" and becomes a Christian. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:


2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this heavenly aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Here is your second and third verses:
Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Rom 8:23 And not only that, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

Our salvation is spiritual. Christ is cleaning the inside of our cup first. That is a long process. Then to complete our salvation, we will receive a glorified body.

The "First-Fruits" are the Elect of this age. They are the first to receive salvation. If the OT fathers have already received salvation, then the Elect could not be First-Fruits.

The glorified body comes at the end of the narrow path that leads to life. Before that time, we must receive the Early and Latter Rain, have our carnal nature destroyed through judgment (the old vessel), then mature into a son of God who produces spiritual fruit. When that process is complete, Satan will be loosed for a "short season" to test us with his temptations. We will pass that test and then be ready to be glorified.

The OT fathers have never gone through this process. But with the help of the Elect in the final age, they will be made perfect and will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

You asked:
Why in the world would you assume the "us" (below)
represents the indwelling Holy Spirit (instead of the completion
of the Eternal Bride?). Again, you fail to discern the CONTEXT
of "be made perfect".

... that they without us should not be made perfect.

The "us" in the verse is the Elect, the First-Fruits. The Elect have the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Without that baptism, we cannot be saved.

Also, there is no such thing as an "eternal bride". The Elect are the Bride of Christ but they marry Christ and produce the offspring which is a child of God. The marriage analogy uses spiritual symbols (like the parables and Revelation do) to teach spiritual truths. The marriage analogy is told in the parable of the Ten Virgins. Here is its meaning:

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto TEN virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The parable begins by showing us Ten Virgins. The term “Virgins” symbolizes all believers who have been “Called out from the world” (the church). All ten virgins have received the Early Rain of the Spirit at this point but not the Latter Rain. The number TEN represents the completeness of their carnality. They have all been made “worse than before”.

The Lamp in verse 1 represents the Word of God (Christ/Truth) and the “Oil” with which it is filled represents the Holy Spirit. This original filling of Oil represents the Early Rain of the Spirit within the “called out” believer. The Light that the Lamp gives off is “truth” which lights the pathway to Christ.

Psa 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

This “truth” that lights the way to Christ is the Old Covenant of Law (man's works).

Mat 25:2 And FIVE of them were Wise, and FIVE were Foolish.

The parable continues with two additional symbols: FIVE Wise Virgins and FIVE Foolish Virgins. The number FIVE is a symbol for how we relate to God. Those two ways are by “works” or by “faith”.

The FIVE Foolish Virgins represent those who have been Called Out but are not chosen to be saints. They approach Christ by “works”. They will remain under the Law until their physical deaths.

The FIVE Wise Virgins represent those who have been Called Out and Chosen to be saints. They will for a time approach Christ by “works” alongside the Called Out believers but they will eventually change their approach to “Grace through Faith”.

Mat 25:3-5 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4 But the wise took oil in flasks with their lamps. 5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

While the Ten Virgins wait for the Bridegroom to come a second time (the first time was when the betrothal was made/Early Rain), they all slumber & sleep and do not keep watch. The symbol “slumbered and slept” represents the time when we are spiritually blind and are spiritually dead. At this time, the Wise Virgins are no different from the Foolish Virgins. They too, are in a worsened spiritual state (Man of Sin) and still carry the Lamp that gives off the light of the Old Covenant of Law (man's works).

However, verse 4 lets us know that the Wise Virgins are those who are also chosen to be saints because they carry an extra flask of Oil.

Mat 25:6-9 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

At midnight, the deepest part of our spiritual darkness when we are a Man of Sin, the call goes out to announce the Bridegroom’s approach. This is the same call that was made by John the Baptist to the Nation of Israel and later by the Apostle John to “Called Out” (Early Rain) Christian believers. It is a call to repent from our own "works" so as to prepare the way for us to receive Christ and the New Covenant.

When both the Wise Virgins and the Foolish Virgins hear “the voice of one crying in the wilderness” (Luke 3:4) and “come out of her my people” (Rev 18:4), it tells them the Bridegroom is coming. They all awake from their slumber and trim their Lamps. As they do, the Lamps begin to go out. A second filling of Oil is needed. For the 5 wise Virgins, since they brought a second filling of Oil, they receive the Latter Rain of the Spirit and go out to meet Christ. They follow the light from the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. But because the 5 Foolish Virgins do not have a second filling of Oil, they are forced to “turn back” from whence they came. They will remain under Law.

This time of turning back is symbolized by Lot’s wife who turned back.

Luke 17:31-32 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.

It is also shown to us in John 6:66 when some of the Christ’s disciples turned away from following Him after responding to the cry of John the Baptist.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

The 5 Foolish Virgins cannot continue on to meet the Bridegroom because they did not receive a second filling of Oil for their Lamps. This New Oil symbolizes the Latter Rain of the Holy Spirit which would have lighted their way to walk by the New Covenant of Grace through Faith. The 5 Foolish Virgins simply were not Chosen from the foundation of the world and had no choice but to remain under Law. Because they never became the wife of Christ, a new child of God was never produced. As a result, they remained under Law and were not saved.

Mat 25:10-12 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

The Foolish Virgins will later find that their portion is with the unbelievers. This event occurs at their resurrection to judgment (Lake of Fire):

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

The Foolish Virgins will not be blessed to be in Christ’s harvest of First Fruits and they will be resurrected to judgment with the unbelievers. They will receive their portion at the end of the final age when the great harvest of mankind occurs. They will not have life in the Kingdom of Heaven during the ages. They will only be given life at the end of the ages.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

When the Great Day of the Harvest (Feast of Tabernacles) finally arrives, Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father which now contains “all” who died in Adam.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

Joe

5thKingdom said:

Let me explain a basic and essential reality to you...

Click to expand...

CONTINUED FROM MY PREVIOUS POST...

You asked:
Do you have any SCRIPTURE that says Moses or Elijah (see above) did not have their names in the Book of Life when they are already shown to be "talking" with Jesus?

Yes, Moses and Elijah are some of the "fathers" of Hebrew 11. They do not receive the promise of being an heir, a First-Fruit. They remained under the Law and being under the Law, they must die. We don't come out from under the Law until we receive the Latter Rain. Here is where Christ teaches this truth:

John 8:3-10 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, 4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. 5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. 7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. 10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

A “woman” in scripture represents God’s wife who is mankind.

Isa 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

From the very start of Adam’s creation, his marriage relationship with God was based upon faith. However, Adam was created spiritually weak and spiritually blind. He quickly became carnally minded. Because of these flaws, Adam soon sinned by committing adultery with Satan (believing Satan instead of God). Rather than going to God in faith and asking for forgiveness, Adam turned to the ways of Satan and tried to hide (apron of fig leaves, filthy rags) his adultery through his own “works”. If Adam would have come to God in faith and simply asked for forgiveness, he would have been forgiven and the marriage relationship would have been restored. But Adam turned to his own works and strayed from approaching God by faith alone. Because of Adam’s adultery with Satan, the marriage ended and God cast him out of the Garden. Ever since that time, God has been working to restore His marriage relationship with mankind.

In the story from John 8:3-10, the woman represents Adam (all mankind). When Christ first writes in the earth it represents the time when He writes His law in our hearts.

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This verse is speaking of the New Covenant which is spiritual.

When Christ first writes His Law of the Spirit in our hearts, it is the time of the Early Rain when we are “called out from the world”. Now, instead of by approaching God by "works", we are to approach Him by "faith" alone. However, shortly after receiving the Early Rain, Satan comes to us and deceives us. This happens because we remain spiritually blind. Because of Satan's deception, we fall away from faith alone and mix in our own works (like Adam did). This is the sin that leads to death and we remain under the Law of Sin and Death. Because this happens, the Pharisees do not drop the stones after Christ first writes in the earth. The Law is still accusing us.

Then in verse 8, Christ stoops down again and writes His Law of the Spirit upon our hearts a second time (the Latter Rain). It is at this point that Christ heals our spiritual blindness and we come out from Satan’s deception. We begin to walk by faith alone and as a result, the Law of Sin and Death can no longer accuse us. After this change from religion (man’s works) to Faith, the Pharisees drop their stones and leave. The Law of Sin and Death is now of no effect over the woman (mankind) and we are restored to God.

You asked:
So Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and Noah and Enoch and Elijah and all the OT Saints are "cast alive" into the "Lake of Fire"... please provide ONE VERSE that teaches this notion.

Yes, they will be. The Lake of Fire is not literal fire nor is it eternal. The Lake of Fire is a symbol for the judgment of Christ. Since Noah, Enoch, etc. have not been judged, they must be cast into the Lake of Fire. All mankind will be judged because our carnal nature (the old vessel) must be destroyed:

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Judgment reveals our spiritual impurities to us and then removes them. We are saved by fire.

Here is what Christ's judgment is like:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Christ's judgment starts in this age with the Elect:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Spiritually blind believers believe that Christ's judgment is similar to the way mankind judges people but that is not true.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

But God is love and everything He does is because He loves us. He judges us so that we can be made "perfect" (saved). The Elect are judged FIRST (they are FIRST-Fruits) and receive the "first" death (death of their old vessel). Those in the Lake of Fire will be judged next and will receive the "second" death.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Everyone who is cast into the Lake of Fire will be judged based upon their spiritual needs. In other words, they will be judged based on what needs purifying. In the end, they will come out from that judgment and will stand before the throne (spiritually speaking):

Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.

The Elect are presented in the first half of the chapter as the 144,000. Christ will use them to help bring in His full harvest of mankind presented in the second half of the chapter. In the end, all who are in Adam, will be made alive in Christ.

You said:
So you think that every man born will be "made perfect" even after JESUS clearly explained that some men were NEVER MEANT to "perceive" the Gospel or "understand" the Gospel or "be converted" or "have their sins forgiven".

When Jesus PROMISED that some men were NEVER MEANT to "have their sins forgiven" He teaches a doctrine different from what (it seems) you are suggesting.

Mar 4:10-12 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; LEST AT ANY TIME they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Most of mankind is not meant to saved in this age. They were not chosen from the foundation of the world to be First-Fruits. Christ is only harvesting His First-Fruit in this present age. The remaining harvest of mankind comes at the consummation of the final age (the Lake of Fire age).

Christ even said this to one of the Pharisees who crucified Him:

Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

Since our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, it is not a matter of "if" we will be saved, but only a matter of "when". This Pharisee, who Christ was speaking to, will be saved at the end of the final age.

The Nation of Israel (by and large) was not meant to be saved in this age. They were used by Christ so that He would die on the cross.

1Cor 2:7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Mar 4:10-12 which you quoted is speaking about what Paul said above. Christ spoke in spiritual language so that the Nation of Israel (princes of this world) would not be able to understand Him.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue (spiritual language) will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

If this had not been the case, they would not have crucified Him. They did not take Christ's life, He laid it down.

You asked:
Do you imagine that Jesus was LYING when He taught the unsaved will suffer eternal torment? And Jesus was somehow mistaken when He taught some men were NEVER MEANT "to have their sins forgiven"?

Their "torment" is spiritual (mental anguish), not physical. The fire is not literal fire. "Fire" means Christ's righteous judgment which purifies us. And His judgment is not "eternal" as you imagine.

The Greek word "aion" means "age". In the verse below, when it says "aion aion" it means for the age of the ages:

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day for the age of the ages. (meaning the final age)

In Mat 25:46, the verse uses aion's adjective form of "aionios" which means age-enduring.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into age-enduring punishment: but the righteous into age-enduring life.

The Elect receive life during the ages (part of their blessing) but all others will only have life at the end of the final age. Once the last person is saved, the "ages" will come to an end and Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father. God will then be "all in all" and Christ's reign will come to an end.

1Cor 15: 25-28 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for the ages of the ages (aion aion).

If "aion aion" should be translated as "for ever and ever", then why would Paul say that His reign comes to an end?

"Aion" was translated as "for ever and ever" to support the false teaching of eternal hell. Hell is not eternal nor is it literal fire. The Lake of Fire is the righteous judgment of Christ and He judges us for the purpose of saving us. All the OT fathers will be judged by Christ at that time and from that judgment, they will be made perfect and enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I will try to answer your last post later today but it may be tomorrow morning before I get a chance.

Joe

FaithWillDo said:

CONTINUED FROM MY PREVIOUS POST...
Joe

Click to expand...

Joe, you just wasted all of your time... I will not waste my time
correcting all of your many, many, mistakes.


I will only tell you that you do not have a CLUE what you are
talking about. For example: you do not even know WHO the
"ten virgins" represent in history/reality (but that does not stop
you from boldly pretending you know WHO they are).


You have constructed a bunch of false doctrines because you
have not even understood WHO you are talking about...
although you pretend otherwise.


The "ten virgins" [Mat 25] are the LAST of the "wheat and tares"
within the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" when they "went forth"
into the (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


They are the SAME PEOPLE called the "ten horns" and the
"ten kings" and the [last] "saints" in Daniel 7


Dan 7:24-25
And the ten horns out of this [Great Tribulation] kingdom
are ten kings that shall arise: and another [Little Horn] shall
rise AFTER them; and he shall be diverse from the first,
and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great
words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints
of the most High, and think to change times and laws:
and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times
and the dividing of time.


Thy are the SAME PEOPLE (again) called the "ten horns"
and the "ten kings" in Revelation 17


Rev 17:12-13
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings,
which have received no kingdom as yet [as John spoke];
but receive power as kings one hour with the Beast.
[during the Great Tribulation] These have one mind,
and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.


Now... WHY in the world would the ten "virgins/kings/horns"
do something like "give their Kingdom to the Beast"???
Of course the ANSWER is given in the context of the text.


Rev 17:17
For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will,
and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the Beast,
until the words of God shall be fulfilled.


Joe, we can KNOW ABSOLUTELY the ten "virgins/kings/horns"
represent the SAME PEOPLE because they are overcome by the
"Little Horn" (Anti-Christ) and they are STILL LIVING on earth
when the Lord Returns.


Let me say that again.
The Bible teaches the ten "virgins/kings/horns" are actually
the SAME PEOPLE... the last "wheat and tares" of the church
who are LIVING on earth when the Lord Returns.


They are NOT people of the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom"
They are NOT people of the (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom" [Mat 22:2]
They are NOT people of the (3rd) Christian "Kingdom" [Mat 13]
They are the people living on earth DURING the Great Tribulation
"Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1].


If you do not understand WHO the ten "virgins/kings/horns"
represent in history (reality)... then obviously you are neither
qualified or capable of offering and "informed opinion" on the
subject. Which is just another example of what I explained
to you in Post #32.


You wasted your time posting because you only PROVED
that you cannot discern the CONTEXT of the passages you
pretend to understand. However, you have no hope of ever
understanding the MEANING of a passage when you cannot
even discern the CONTEXT.


You do not even understand:
(1) The Revelation Beast represents the SAME PEOPLE
(ten virgins/kings/horns) as (2) the people living during Daniel's
Fourth Beast/Kingdom on earth (called ten kings/horns) and
(3) the SAME PEOPLE as those "kings" that rule for the time
of the Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" and (4) the
SAME PEOPLE living during the RULE of the Anti-Christ and
(5) the SAME PEOPLE living during Satan's "Little Season".


------------------

For over two DOZEN passages talking about these
SAME PEOPLE living on earth when the Lord Returns
(the last "wheat and tares") you can read Chapter 8.5
on this page. If you cannot HARMONIZE the PEOPLE
described in Chapter 8.5 then you cannot offer an
"informed opinion" on THOSE PEOPLE


https://www.5thkingdomofheaven.com/chapter-8

------------------


Good luck to you.
Because you cannot even HARMONIZE the "ten virgins"
of Matthew 25 with the "ten kings/horns" of Daniel 7 and
the "ten kings/horns" of Revelation 17 and the PEOPLE
living during Satan's "Little Season"... you are simply unable
to offer a Biblical explanation of WHO they represent.


As I have explained to you before...
When you cannot understand the CONTEXT of a passage
you have no hope of ever understanding the MEANING of that
passage.


The Bible gives us (about TWO DOZEN) passages talking
about the LAST "wheat and tares" of the church who are
still ALIVE on earth at the time of the Lord's Return...
But (unfortunately) this is "news" to you.


Now... WHY is this "news" to you?
Because the Bible PROMISES that only the Last Saints
"shall understand" the Biblical mysteries that were "closed"
and "sealed" to all previous saints - until the "time-of-the-end".
[Dan 12:8-10]


And Jesus PROMISED these last saints "shall see" all of
the end-time events within the Great Tribulation... in fact
Jesus PROMISED the last saints "shall see ALL these things"
[Mat 24:15 and 24:33]


Joe, it would be pure delusion to pretend to understand THESE PEOPLE
are those saints who have LIVED AND DIED before the rise of the
Anti-Christ. These last saints can even NAME the Anti-Christ.
That is just not possible for people who lived and died
BEFORE Matthew 24:15 and 24:33.


You see Joe... the Bible contains (literally) DOZENS of passages
talking about the last "wheat and tares" still living when Satan
is "loosened" for his "Little Season" (aka, the Revelation Beast
and Daniel's Fourth Beast and the Great Tribulation "Kingdom")
but you cannot offer an "informed opinion" on THESE PEOPLE
when you cannot harmonize those DOZENS of passages which
talk about THESE PEOPLE (by many different names).


You have only demonstrated the correctness of what I explained
to you previously... do not even pretend you have found Biblical
TRUTH when you cannot harmonize ALL RELATED SCRIPTURES
for that event or people.


Actually, that is the FIRST PRINCIPLE of Bible Study.
It is the most BASIC and ESSENTIAL element of Bible Study.
Any/all "theories" you devise MUST HARMONIZE with everything
the Bible says about the subject.


When you "cherry pick" passages you LIKE
and you INTENTIONALLY IGNORE passages that contradict...
you are not following the Gospel of the Bible - then you are only
following your own "gospel". (paraphrasing Saint Augustine)


Jim