Gay Christians

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However, noting that you did not answer my question above,
It's unlikely I'll be answering your questions because I believe you will attempt to turn everything around into an argument.

The exchange will end up being petty, difficult and pointless - I'll learn nothing from it. No good will come from it. It'll be miserable and laborious with nothing gained at the end.
 
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Clare73

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Excellent - Goodbye
Are you wanting to know what I think is their eternal destiny, and if so, why not say so?

There are only two eternal destinies, each determined by one thing, one's response to God's remedy (Romans 3:25) for mankind's condemnation (Romans 5:18).

All those who apply the remedy (by faith) are destined for heaven.
All those who do not apply the remedy are destined for hell.

Is that what you want to know. . .and if so, why not ask?
 
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Clare73

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It's unlikely I'll be answering your questions because I believe you will attempt to turn everything around into an argument.

The exchange will end up being petty, difficult and pointless - I'll learn nothing from it. No good will come from it. It'll be miserable and laborious with nothing gained at the end.
Given to much pre-judging?

My answers will be based in Scripture, where there is hope, not necessarily condemnation.

Being homosexual is not Biblically immoral, and is no impediment to salvation by faith in Jesus Christ.
It is the practice of sex that is Biblically immoral, and must be dealt with by the Christian homosexual.
 
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aiki

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There seem to be more and more churches that are willing to see being gay as ok and also offer gay marriage. For example the Methodists in the UK recently voted to support gay marriage.

I know there are two sides in this debate and both have their own way of interpreting scripture and understanding the context of the various Bible passages.

I was talking to a Methodist lay preacher earlier, he is going to stop his preaching and probably join a different church.

My question is.... Are these disagreements going to radically change more and more churches with new churches splitting off into for and against groups. Is Christianity heading into a totally new future?

There have been for a long time now both liberal and conservative groups of Christian believers. As time passes, the divide between them has grown such that in the eyes of conservative Christians, liberal Christians no longer really are Christian. The matter of accepting homosexual behaviour as okay within the Christian community is a good example of why.

Scripture could not be more clear about God's view of homosexuality (Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Jude 1:7; Leviticus 18:22, etc.). A natural, straightforward reading of the texts of Scripture speaking to this matter simply doesn't allow for an acceptance of homosexuality as a moral, God-honoring practice. The enormously contorted explanations offered by Christian liberals to negate these passages of their force, to cloud the explicit condemnation of homosexuality they contain, suggests very strongly the desire to alter Scripture rather than accept it as it is.

Doing this alteration of the Bible is an easier matter for the liberal Christian because, generally, they don't ascribe to Scripture the authority, the divine inspiration, that a conservative Christian does. Many of them don't even recognize Christ as God incarnate, doubting strongly that he was a real figure in history. It's no wonder, then, that, over time, the liberal denominations drift farther and farther from orthodox Christianity, becoming merely a mirror of secular culture. Without Scripture as an objective and authoritative fixed point of reference, liberal "Christians" just go where the winds of secular culture blow them.

As you can imagine, a conservative Christian looks at this doctrinal malleability, this constant accommodation of secular culture in liberal "Christian" thought and practice, as abhorrent, leading away from Christ, creating a god of the liberal Christian's making, a god in their own image, that is "relevant" and accepting of the godless culture around them. The conservative Christian sees this as a very literally damning situation, leading people to an eternal separation from God.

In the city where I live, the United and Anglican denominations, some liberal Catholic churches, non-denominational "emergent" or "progressive" churches disregard the Bible's prohibition of homosexuality, but all the mainstream conservative Protestant and Catholic churches continue to condemn homosexuality for the sin that the Bible says it is. There aren't a growing bunch of splinter churches, dividing along the line of one single moral prohibition. All that is happening, as far as I can see, is a deepening and widening of the divide between liberal and conservative Christians.
 
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drich0150

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There seem to be more and more churches that are willing to see being gay as ok and also offer gay marriage. For example the Methodists in the UK recently voted to support gay marriage.

I know there are two sides in this debate and both have their own way of interpreting scripture and understanding the context of the various Bible passages.

I was talking to a Methodist lay preacher earlier, he is going to stop his preaching and probably join a different church.

My question is.... Are these disagreements going to radically change more and more churches with new churches splitting off into for and against groups. Is Christianity heading into a totally new future?

if you understand that in the NT all sexuall sin is seen the same way to God 'inappropriate contentea' then subdividing into personal 'kinks' and judging each others as if one worse any less deserving of death than another. and two sexual sin is not blaspheme of the holy Spirit (the only unforgivable sin) that it should be treated as any other sin then things will change. should homosexuals be allowed to be married, no as it is still a sin. should homosexuals be ban from church or targeted for hate no. no more than the boys high school sunday school class for not being able to stop masterbating.

We must separate the soul from the body who is sold as a slave to sin, and not allow the soul to indulge in sin which becomes evil, and at the same time not take it upon ourselves to cast out both the soul and the body if the brother is trying.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Would abiding in Christ meaning to Love God and Love neighbour? @HTacianas

“but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:5-6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
 
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Clare73

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if you understand that in the NT all sexuall sin is seen the same way to God 'inappropriate contentea' then subdividing into personal 'kinks' and judging each others as if one worse any less deserving of death than another. and two sexual sin is not blaspheme of the holy Spirit (the only unforgivable sin) that it should be treated as any other sin then things will change. should homosexuals be allowed to be married, no as it is still a sin. should homosexuals be ban from church or targeted for hate no. no more than the boys high school sunday school class for not being able to stop masterbating.

We must separate the soul from the body who is sold as a slave to sin, and not allow the soul to indulge in sin which becomes evil, and at the same time not take it upon ourselves to cast out both the soul and the body if the brother is trying.
I understand what you are saying, but the NT doesn't seem to view it that way.
It seems to present (Romans 1:21-27) the sexual immorality of homosexuals as more grievous than other sexual immorality, presenting it as God's special "eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth" retaliation/judgment on grievous pagan idolatry (spiritual whoredom, unfaithfulness)--so dishonoring to God in its representation of him as reptile and animal--that he "gave them over" to dishonoring themselves with one another just as they had dishonored him, punishing their sin of spirutal whoredom with the sin of sexual whoredom. . .as he punishes the sin of refusing to love the truth with the sin of believing the lie (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12); i.e., allowing sin to run its course as an act of judgment.

The basis for the NT understanding of the sexual immorality of homosexuals is Leviticus 18:22, where in the Hebrew it is called toebah, an abomination (detestable, repugnant, disgusting, revolting
--causing one to vomit). And I suspect that is because it is a perversion of the natural order which God set up at creation.

But in the final analysis, all sin is reduced to the one sin that condemns--unbelief in Jesus Christ.
The rest of them are really just window dressing (for one's future Gehenna habitat).
 
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drich0150

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I understand what you are saying, but the NT doesn't seem to view it that way.
It seems to present the sexual immorality of homosexuals as more grievous than other sexual immorality, presenting it as God's special "eye-for-an-eye, tooth-for-a-tooth" retaliation/judgment
on grievous pagan idolatry (spiritual whoredom, unfaithfulness)--so dishonoring to God in its representation of him as reptile and animal--that he "gave them over" to dishonoring themselves with one another just as they had dishonored him, punishing their sin of spirutal whoredom with the sin of sexual whoredom. . .as he punishes the sin of refusing to love the truth with the sin of believing the lie (2 Thessalonias 2:10-12); i.e., allowing sin to run its course as an act of judgment.

The basis for the NT understanding of the sexual immorality of homosexuals is Leviticus 18:22, where in the Hebrew it is called toebah, an abomination (detestable, repugnant, disgusting, revolting
--causing one to vomit). And I suspect that is because it is a perversion of the natural laws which God set in place at creation.

But in the final analysis, all sin is reduced to the one sin that condemns--unbelief in Jesus Christ.
The rest of them are really just window dressing (for one's future Gehenna habitat).
Ah..... No.

Take an honest look at your message. you quoted 1 NT passage and it had nothing to do with sexual sin at all let alone homosexuality. and the condemnation you quoted in 2 thes 2:10-12 was not speaking of people who sexually sin but rather the people in mentions in verse 4 of the passage: Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Now is it your honest opinion that even though 2 thess2 never once mentions anything to do with sexual sin but in verse 4 condemns those who set themselves up to be worshiped as god that (is the lie according to the context of the passage/verse 3)

In context verses :10-12 are about the blasphemers pretending telling people jesus is not coming/there is no jesus and setting themselves up to be God, but you see it as God puts extra hate on homosexuals?

Seriously? not saying you cant think that. all i'm saying is if you read the whole passage, it has nothing to do with your 'belief.'

not to mention you are not an ot jew, your salvation is not based on following all of the ot law. so why quote a passage intended for a completely different religion?
 
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Clare73

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Ah..... No.

Take an honest look at your message.
you quoted 1 NT passage and it had nothing to do with sexual sin at all
Honest look taken. . .sorry I didn't make it more clear.

I did not quote the passage on sexual immorality to which I was referring; i.e., Romans 1:21-27,
and the passage I did quote is an example of what I stated; i.e., God punishing sin with sin,
it is not an example of sexual immorality.

Thanks.
 
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drich0150

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Honest look taken. . .sorry I didn't make it more clear.

I did not quote the passage on sexual immorality to which I was referring; i.e., Romans 1:21-27,
and the passage I did quote is an example of what I stated; i.e., God punishing sin with sin,
it is not an example of sexual immorality.

Thanks.
god punishing a very specific sin with sin was the point of 2 thess 2. which again had nothing to do with homosexuality.

And again I am not saying homosexuality is not a sin. i clearly identify it as such. I simply point out YOU/we are in no place to judge this sin as being any greater than another sexual sin. As if you were to continue to read the book of romans you would see all of romans 1 was to list out all the sin men who do not know god do. then first line in romans 2 and again later in chapter 3 says 'you are in no place to judge those men.. because of the sin you still do even knowing god is the same to god, and you are just as sinful. which was my initial point.. homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin. it is like any other sexual sin.
 
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Clare73

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god punishing a very specific sin with sin was the point of 2 thess 2. which again had nothing to do with homosexuality.
And if you read my post, you will see that I did not say it did, I used it as another example, unrelated to homosexuality, of God punishing sin with sin, as he does with homosexuality in Romans 1:22-25,
the homosexuality being his punishment for the idolatry (Romans 1:22-25).
And again I am not saying homosexuality is not a sin. i clearly identify it as such. I simply point out YOU/we are in no place to judge this sin as being any greater than another sexual sin.
And I am reporting what appears to be the NT view on that point in Romans 1:21-27, that it is presented as more grievous than other sexual immorality (except inappropriate behavior with animals).
As if you were to continue to read the book of romans you would see all of romans 1 was to list out all the sin men who do not know god do. then first line in romans 2 and again later in chapter 3 says 'you are in no place to judge those men.. because of the sin you still do even knowing god is the same to god, and you are just as sinful. which was my initial point.. homosexuality is not the unforgivable sin. it is like any other sexual sin.
 
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Richard.20.12

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> Why do people find it hard to accept people if they are Gay? Or whatever sexuality they are... who cares, aren't we called to love others?

God cares so we should care. Yes we're all sinners but we recognize our sins (hopefully). They don't. That's the problem.

I find reaching out to gay people very difficult as most as so empowered by other gay people its very challenging even talking about this subject. Another issue is the abuse that has inevitably occurred previously in their life that caused them to go down a different sexual track. Most of us want to put bad things behind us but to really heal from abuse one must understand the situation, accept it happened, and, most importantly, forgive the abuser (they were probably abused themselves early in life and drugs/alcohol are frequently involved). When you talk to gay people you find out they often carry big grudges though they rarely acknowledge them early in the conversation/relationship. Grudges are really just unforgiven hurts from the past. Its really hard to move forward when we don't forgive. Ministering to gays or gay Christians is a world unto itself and totally unlike any other ministry I've ever encountered and can require a very different approach. For most people its very uncharted territory.
 
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James_Lai

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There seem to be more and more churches that are willing to see being gay as ok and also offer gay marriage. For example the Methodists in the UK recently voted to support gay marriage.

I know there are two sides in this debate and both have their own way of interpreting scripture and understanding the context of the various Bible passages.

I was talking to a Methodist lay preacher earlier, he is going to stop his preaching and probably join a different church.

My question is.... Are these disagreements going to radically change more and more churches with new churches splitting off into for and against groups. Is Christianity heading into a totally new future?

Give it one or two more generations and church will be 100% pro-gay. Same way as it happened with slavery, for example, or corporal punishment of children, or is happening with female church ministers etc. As soon as the vast majority of society becomes pro-gay, church will follow. Evolution of religion: it adapts or dies. There could linger small pockets of anti-gay opposition for some time, to disappear eventually.

This is if we assume Christianity’s prevalence in the traditionally Christian countries. I do not exclude Islam slowly taking over in those lands.
 
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James_Lai

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If you are gay you are practicing sin. You're deliberately living in sin. We all sin. But a Christian doesn't make it a habit. Gays welcome the sin.

I’m heterosexual in orientation, but how being homosexual is a sin? I’m serious. Could you explain why it’s wrong and harmful to sinners themselves and to the society? In which ways do they bring something unwanted by their actions? I truly fail to see anything bad as consequence of this kind of lifestyle.
 
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Lukaris

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It is in our thoughts and actions that the sin of adultery basically compels us to be celibate or basically be faithfully married and sex for procreation. This is what the Lord seems to be saying in Matthew 5:27-32 while the severe warnings of amputation are symbolic but morally strict. Obviously most of us will stumble in wide varying ways in this although confession is always our way of coping ( 1 John 1:5-10).

Our orientation & inclination is in a fallen state of being and we are not guilty of sin for that ( Romans 5:12-14). Until we act sinfully ( & we will in wide varying ways, some not so bad & others bad) the sin is then imputed. I believe this is what St. Paul means in Romans 5:13; we are born, live, & die at different times.


Believe me, I don’t think living with our temptations is easy or claim to be a good example.
 
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Clare73

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I’m heterosexual in orientation, but how being homosexual is a sin? I’m serious. Could you explain why it’s wrong and harmful to sinners themselves and to the society? In which ways do they bring something unwanted by their actions? I truly fail to see anything bad as consequence of this kind of lifestyle.
Seriously? Have you read Romans 1:24-28?

God is the arbiter of sin, not man. Sin is against God.
We have no say in what is sin against God and what is not, anymore than my neighbor has a say in what is personally offensive to me and what is not.
 
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Clare73

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It is in our thoughts and actions that the sin of adultery basically compels us to be celibate or basically be faithfully married and sex for procreation. This is what the Lord seems to be saying in Matthew 5:27-32 while the severe warnings of amputation are symbolic but morally strict. Obviously most of us will stumble in wide varying ways in this although confession is always our way of coping ( 1 John 1:5-10).
Our orientation & inclination is in a fallen state of being and we are not guilty of sin for that ( Romans 5:12-14). Until we act sinfully ( & we will in wide varying ways, some not so bad & others bad) the sin is then imputed.
Actually the sin of our own actions is charged to us, not imputed.
Imputation is about effects of that with which we engaged in no performance (works), as in the righteousness of God imputed to Abraham (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6), as well as the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed (Romans 5:18-19) in justification to those in Christ by faith (Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5).
I believe this is what St. Paul means in Romans 5:13;
Actually, in context, Romans 5:13 is about no sin being accounted/charged to anyone because there was no law to sin against, as part of a larger demonstration of the imputation of the sin of Adam to all mankind (Romans 5:18).
 
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