Olivet Discourse: Reformed Amil or Boltian Amil? I'm wondering where I fit...

I think I might be a Carsonian Amil.

I view the Olivet Discourse prophecies as partly fulfilled, the destruction of the Second Temple and how the Jewish Christians had to flee to Pella; but mostly not; for the end times and His Return.

Jesus said: Take care to not be deceived......
This statement shows that being deceived IS possible for Christians. Amply proved by how most Christians: have very differing understandings of the Prophetic Word. Matthew 24:24

We can all see how the world situation is now unsustainable. We have had wars, plagues and natural disasters. But as Jesus said, in Matthew 24:7-8; they are just the birth pangs of the new age. There has to come some kind of massive change before Jesus Returns to reign as King, for the final 1000 years of mankind’s history.
But what the Bible Prophets, including Jesus in Matthew 24:37-44, do tell us, is an event of similar magnitude to Noah's Flood: a total reset of our civilization.

What Jesus said in Matthew 24:27-30 is of the greatest interest to us now.
1/ He will come like a lightening flash, seen by all, but not yet by His presence. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4
2/ Many will be killed. Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 66:15
3/ The vultures will gather.
4/ AFTER that time, there will be other cosmic signs and He will Return in power and great glory.

1/ The great and terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, is a worldwide disaster prophesied in over 100 scriptures. Jesus' next action on earth will be: Isaiah 61:2b, 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 14:14-20
2/ Millions will die from this disaster, especially in the Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18
3/ The 'vultures' refers to the rich influencers of the world, who know what is about to happen and have prepared shelters. They will take control and form a One World Government led by them. Which we Christians will not be a part of; Isaiah 62:1-5, Romans 9:24-26
4/ The prophesied things between the Sixth Seal, a literal Day of disaster, Joel 2:30-31, Isaiah 63:1-6, and the glorious Return of Jesus, will take 15 to 20 years.
As Revelation 8:1; the Seventh Seal says: about a half hour in heaven... That equals about 20 years of earth time, using the formula of 1 day in heaven equal to 1000 years of earth time.

Jesus told 2 parables: Matthew 25:1-30
The ten virgins; We must be prepared and be aware of what must happen, as the Day He changes the world, will come unexpectedly.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-11
The three servants entrusted with the Masters valuables. Literally our 'talents'. We must do whatever is in our power to further the Kingdom.

Then, when He Returns, He will bring our rewards with Him, Matthew 16:27, Matthew 24:45-46, and those who have failed to act righteously and to stand firm in their faith, may suffer some loss. 1 Corinthians 3:11-15..... he will escape with his life, after passing thru the fire.
Our test by fire. 1 Peter 4:12

eclipsenow said:

Hi all,

Sydney Anglican Amils are NOT Full Preterist (which is a heresy that the Lord has already returned) but Partial Preterist.

Most of Old Testament scripture is fulfilled in Eschatological Tension of the gospel - the now and not yet nature of the Kingdom of God as we wait for Jesus to return.

Jesus WILL return - we know that from other parts of the New Testament. But I'm still not sure how much of the Olivet Discourse discusses the future Judgement Day - IF ANY of Olivet does! Let me explain.

There seems to be 2 views in the Reformed Evangelical camp. This next piece is not to prove anything, but just outline the views:-

Reformed Amil: TWO questions are answered - one about THAT temple being destroyed in THAT generation within 40 years, and the next question being answered about the END OF THE AGE = Judgement Day.
There are 'these things' (temple being destroyed, sacrificial system, abomination that causes desolation of the temple) which happen at AD70 after Jesus effectively does away with the sacrificial system.
Then 'that day' which is Judgement Day, the end of all things.
2 subjects: temple, the 'these things' that happens in THAT generation.
THEN the future.
This seems to be the view of the Reformed and IVP commentaries on Biblegateway.

Boltian Amil: (By Dr Peter Bolt of Moore Theological College - the Sydney Anglicans):
ONE question is answered - about the end of THAT temple and the whole sacrificial system because of Jesus death and resurrection - and that the apocalyptic language is all about the gospel.

EG: Jesus on the clouds of heaven is Coming TO the Ancient of Days in victory after ascending, and the angels = messengers going out to collect the elect are in fact the Apostles declaring the gospel. Other verses that back this reading of the weird apocalyptic language of the heavens shaken and causing grief and concern on earth are Acts 2 where Peter explains Pentecost in the language of Joel. The gospel is declared in the face of the turmoil of this world - and reminds people that we do not have forever.

At this stage of my investigations it seems the great DA Carson Is Reformed Amil - that the apocalyptic language of sun darkening etc does in fact refer to Jesus return. The second question is answered.

But most of the Sydney Anglicans I know think the Son of Man on the clouds is actually returning to the Ancient of Days in Daniel's prophecy - meaning that particular bit of apocalyptic is fulfilled not in the future but by the gospel itself.
It's a big and quite technical debate - and I just may not be up to it. I'm not a professional theologian myself - and do not have the ancient Hebrew or Greek to evaluate some matters. I have a lot of reading to do.

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So, let me make sure I understand what issue you're debating with yourself here. Is the issue the return of Jesus, debating whether that return spoken of was the return to the father, or a future return to earth? Is that essentially the debate you're having?

eclipsenow said:

You can't obey a message about some future conflicts that have nothing to do with you!

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Some of the unfulfilled Prophesies are nearly 6000 years old. This does not mean they will never happen, just that we should be aware that one day, they will. Peoples before us, have all generally realized that much of prophecy was not for them. If they did think it was, they usually looked fairly silly; example the Millerites of 1844.

eclipsenow said:

(Yawns - I'm so over these one world government conspiracy theories.)

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A blatant case of scripture rejection. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 13:8

keras said:

2/ Millions will die from this disaster, especially in the Middle East. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 10:18

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eclipsenow said:

Local judgements

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Luke 21:34-35....that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
Many other prophesies prove that the terrible Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, will affect all the earth. We will never be the same again.
But yes: the ME will be more severely affected. The strike of the Lord's burning anger will hit them at mid day, Zephaniah 2:1-5....I shall lay you in ruins, bereft of inhabitants.

eclipsenow said:

Hi all,

Sydney Anglican Amils are NOT Full Preterist (which is a heresy that the Lord has already returned) but Partial Preterist.

Most of Old Testament scripture is fulfilled in Eschatological Tension of the gospel - the now and not yet nature of the Kingdom of God as we wait for Jesus to return.

Jesus WILL return - we know that from other parts of the New Testament. But I'm still not sure how much of the Olivet Discourse discusses the future Judgement Day - IF ANY of Olivet does! Let me explain.

There seems to be 2 views in the Reformed Evangelical camp. This next piece is not to prove anything, but just outline the views:-

Reformed Amil: TWO questions are answered - one about THAT temple being destroyed in THAT generation within 40 years, and the next question being answered about the END OF THE AGE = Judgement Day.
There are 'these things' (temple being destroyed, sacrificial system, abomination that causes desolation of the temple) which happen at AD70 after Jesus effectively does away with the sacrificial system.
Then 'that day' which is Judgement Day, the end of all things.
2 subjects: temple, the 'these things' that happens in THAT generation.
THEN the future.
This seems to be the view of the Reformed and IVP commentaries on Biblegateway.

Boltian Amil: (By Dr Peter Bolt of Moore Theological College - the Sydney Anglicans):
ONE question is answered - about the end of THAT temple and the whole sacrificial system because of Jesus death and resurrection - and that the apocalyptic language is all about the gospel.

EG: Jesus on the clouds of heaven is Coming TO the Ancient of Days in victory after ascending, and the angels = messengers going out to collect the elect are in fact the Apostles declaring the gospel. Other verses that back this reading of the weird apocalyptic language of the heavens shaken and causing grief and concern on earth are Acts 2 where Peter explains Pentecost in the language of Joel. The gospel is declared in the face of the turmoil of this world - and reminds people that we do not have forever.

At this stage of my investigations it seems the great DA Carson Is Reformed Amil - that the apocalyptic language of sun darkening etc does in fact refer to Jesus return. The second question is answered.

But most of the Sydney Anglicans I know think the Son of Man on the clouds is actually returning to the Ancient of Days in Daniel's prophecy - meaning that particular bit of apocalyptic is fulfilled not in the future but by the gospel itself.
It's a big and quite technical debate - and I just may not be up to it. I'm not a professional theologian myself - and do not have the ancient Hebrew or Greek to evaluate some matters. I have a lot of reading to do.

Click to expand...

Though I cringe at the label "Reformed Amil" (I disagree with Reformed teaching regarding soteriology), my Amil view is closest to that. I believe it just makes nonsense of the Olivet Discourse to see all of it fulfilled by 70 AD or all of it fulfilled in the future.