Confusion about what Jesus Said

EmethAlethia

Newbie
Oct 5, 2014
404
107
62
✟28,633.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It does not presume anything, based on the concept of the old and new testament, the entire basis for entrance into Heaven is receiving The Holy Spirit. Therefore, all commands are evaluated to be obeying Jesus as a basis for Entrance into Heaven. What reason did you state this?

I stated it because every belief group believes that they figured out and obey the bible and "few there are who are saved." "Many will say to Me, Lord, Lord, did we not ... in Your Name and in Your Name ... and ... and I will say to them, depart from Me ye who work iniquity for I never knew you." The whole point is that Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Roman Catholic, Baptist, ... fill in the blank ... they all believe with all their heart mind, soul and strength that they have the Holy Spirit and are obeying God.

And if I ask anyone from any group why they "KNOW" they are right with God, or are as right as it is possible for anyone to be, what will I get? Everything in the list below:

They …

1.) Gather whatever they can “use” to prove what they “want to believe” to be truth.

2.) Accumulate all evidence they believe proves all opposing views incorrect.

3.) Assume their beliefs are unquestionable truth, and interpret everything in such a way as to make it all support, or at least not negate, their beliefs. Think about it. If your beliefs are unquestionable truths, all “valid” data, must support … or at least not negate, your infallible beliefs, right?

4.) Reinterpret, ignore, discredit, invalidate … anything that doesn’t seem to fit with their views, Why? Our beliefs are “Fact” Valid data interpreted correctly can’t contradict the facts.

5.) Gather all the other experiences, feelings, data … to solidify their beliefs such as signs, wonders, spiritual gifts or facts about your belief group. Things like: we have a burning in the bosom, we speak in tongues, we perform signs or wonders, a statue of Mary came to life and told us our belief groups views are correct, we have prayed to God for the truth and received “feelings” or even signs from heaven. Or, on a more concrete level: Our belief group is the oldest, largest, fastest growing, wealthiest, has the most experts with doctorates… Include anything that adds assurance that your views and belief group have the most truth.

But believing you are right with God, believing you are doing His will, believing you have the Holy Spirit ... doesn't save. Believing and living in accordance with the truth saves, and the things in the list above only harden those who love "what they want to believe" "as" truth into those beliefs.

Look at the things in that list. If you do more of any one of them, how long before you discover your beliefs are false? Answer: You can't. Why? You aren't gathering that information. If you are gathering more proof that opposing beliefs are false, how long before you find out one of them really is the truth? Answer: You already KNOW beyond any shadow of a doubt that your beliefs are "fact" and you are only gathering proof that all opposing beliefs are false, so you can never find out. The methodology above only hardens people into believing lies as truth and truth to be lies. No one can ever get "to" truth from there, and every "belief group" focusing on beliefs uses it and gets exactly what they want. Proof their beliefs are true and all opposing beliefs are false? Why? They love their beliefs, not truth.

"That which we love least is always forced to conform to what we love most. Every person either loves their beliefs or they love truth."

Everyone gets exactly what they want "from" God. Why? He designed it that way. You need signs, wonders, spiritual gifts, statues of Mary coming to life, a burning in the boosom, speaking in tongues, prophesying, doing marvelous works of power in His name, casting out demons in His name ... all the proof you need God will give you to harden you into the beliefs you love, and they all do exactly what is in that list.

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

You want truth? You have to do something different. If we want truth ...

1.) We Avoid “Methodology One”(Mentioned prior): Proving your beliefs true and holding fast to them, is not the same as, “Proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life, and holding fast to what is good/true.” Look at that 2Th. 2:10-13 passage. Paul said that the lost in the end times failed, and Paul used the same standard and judged that those he was writing to were held to the same standard but passed the test and received a love of the truth and were true Christians making this a timeless truth.

2.) We maintain a state of Open-mindedness: We remain open-minded to altering any, or all of our beliefs in the light of the fullness of the word of God rightly divided. All belief groups believe in being open minded … “until” you accept their beliefs. Then they believe in being as closed as possible. If you love truth, you will continually remain open-minded to altering any or all of your beliefs in the light of the fullness of the truth, when everything that “might” pertain to the topic at hand is rightly divided. How many passages are there about closing your eyes and ears lest you see or hear. Look at Methodology One again. What is it designed to do?

3.) We stay in a state of Habitual ongoing Labor/ Getting Every Piece of Data that Might Pertain: That "Be a workman who need not be ashamed" part. It's in the present tense, indicating ongoing continuous, never ceasing labors to cut-straight ALL that God says on every topic. If you Love Truth, you, personally, must become a manual laborer and keep on gathering every fact anyone thinks might pertain to every topic at hand. Then gather all the data that “might pertain” no belief group gathers because they can’t use that information to prove their beliefs true or opposing beliefs false. Yes, that’s every piece of data that proves all your current beliefs false that the opponents to your beliefs have gathered, and every fact that might prove beliefs you believe to be wrong to be truth on that topic as well. We are commanded to be habitual, ongoing, never stopping laborers who are approved by God and won’t stand ashamed before Him. How do we determine what that outcome will be? We habitually “Cut-straight” every single piece of the word of God that “might” apply to the topic at hand. This is way different than looking for passages of scripture to prove true what we want to teach on a topic.

Fact: CONSISTENCY IN INTERPRETATION: If God, God’s word, and God’s people are not consistent in what they say and do and DON’T SAY AND DON’T DO, then looking for truth in the bible is a waste of time. Holding to consistency includes:

4.) Consistency with Background Context: Pick a meaning that fully aligns with the historical, legal, architectural, agricultural … context.

5.) Consistency of Meaning of words/root words/figures of speech: Hold to a meaning for all words, root words, and figures of speech consistent with their usage throughout the Old and New Testament. We have a Greek Old and New Testament and a Hebrew Old Testament, pick a meaning fully fitting everywhere the same word, root word, and figure of speech is used. If in p the Septuagint and the N.T. Greek the word phobos is translated as fear, terror, ... and you choose that meaning in 542 of the 544 places it is used, but change the meaning to respect or honor in 2 places because you neither like, nor understand the meaning in the two remaining, then you have altered the word of God to fit what you want to believe.

6.) Consistency with the Surrounding Discussion: Hold to a meaning consistent with the entire discussion surrounding the verse or passage being considered, hold to the flow of thought, flow of arguments, meaning of points made … If Paul just spent an entire chapter telling us that spiritual gifts are assigned by God, distributed just as He wishes, that not everyone gets every gifts, and that all gifts are equal and equally necessary and then "seems to say", "Earnestly desire the greater gifts." We have a contradiction. Paul said there are no greater or lesser gifts. Paul said desire has nothing at all to do with the gift(s) we are assigned. "But" there is another possible interpretation that fits perfectly in the context. "But you are desiring the more showy gifts.". That is a possible interpretation that does not contradict anything, and indeed fits perfectly with what was happening. People were forsaking the gifts assigned for what they though was more impressive, "acting" like they had gifts they didn't while forsaking what they were given.

7.) Consistency with conscience: Example: If your interpretation would be a sin if a man did likewise and your interpretation results in believing God does what would be sin for us, your interpretation is wrong. i.e., there are no illustrations in the Bible where God says He commits adultery. If your chosen meaning for the word adultery would make God an adulterer, and by His own admission, you picked the wrong meaning for the word. Find every place where God uses the word adultery in the Old Testament. In more than one place God says His wives committed adultery against Him. Now if your modern definition of adultery includes the fact that taking a second wife is automatically adultery, what are you accusing God of. (Yeah, getting all of the data that might pertain up front, and not just gathering what we can "use" to hold fast to "what we want to believe or want to reject is an important first step.)

8.) God, God’s People and God’s Word are 100% consistent: Pick an interpretation for all the data that makes God, God’s people and God’s word 100% consistent in “all” they say and do and “all” they don’t say and don’t do. Any inconsistencies, are proof of incorrect beliefs/definitions. Let's go with the same topic although there are many possible ones where we totally interpret everything to fit what we want to believe... How many times does the bible say David committed adultery? Once. With Bathsheba ... wife number eight. David also took at least 10 wives after her, and many people believe it could be as high as 20 more. Yet, only one case of adultery. How many times was Solomon said to have committed adultery? God did reprove Solomon for his wives, but it wasn't for the number of them.

9.) Always apply logic, reason, and rational thinking: Pick an interpretation fully fitting with all logic, reason, and rational thinking. (Back to the spiritual gifts illustration. If the writer spent a whole chapter saying all gifts are equal and necessary, that none are greater than any others, … do not choose an interpretation for the very next verse that would command us to desire what God spent the previous 30 verses saying doesn’t exist, and that you can’t get, period, regardless of your desire. “Earnestly desire the greater gifts”, contradicts everything prior. Look for the “other” possible meaning. Note: There is one.

10.) Start with the Easiest/Clearest … data on the topic: Interpret the clearest, easiest understood, most straightforward data/passages first—then the more complex or difficult passages. The complex, convoluted, and difficult passages are easy to distort to fit beliefs.

11.) It ALL fits together: Pick a meaning for the parts that fully fit with the whole of the data that might pertain without adding meaning, subtracting meaning, or distorting anything to force it to comply with your beliefs. If everything gathered (#3 above) does not fully fit with everything in #4-10 above, you have the wrong meaning, and you are forcing the scriptures to fit what you want to believe “as” truth.

12.) Keep on continuously proving all things over and over again as a habit and way of life and never stop … and hold fast to what is good/true. Getting to truth is an ongoing process that never ends. One single verse, one fact you missed, one slight change in interpretation … can force a complete reevaluation and even a complete a change of beliefs. That is, if you love truth, and obey what God commands all His people to be continuously doing for and by themselves. If not …

13.) It’s all on You! Trusting others to get to truth “for” you, is like trusting others to have a relationship with your wife / husband / kids “for” you. It cannot be done. Your failure to keep on habitually doing as God commands all His people to keep on habitually doing, proves you have gathered enough using Methodology One to hold fast to what you want to believe and fall short of 2Th. 2:10-12

The wonder isn't that there are over 500 "brands" of Baptists on the North American continent all with slight variations in beliefs, the wonder is that "if we change our methodology" to one designed to get us closer and closer to truth, altering our beliefs as we go, we will all end up unifying in our faith more and more, rather than just holding fast to our beliefs "as" truth. You see ...

That which we love least is always forced to conform to that which we love most. Everyone either loves the truth or loves their beliefs. Pick one. Which do you choose to love. Your "Methodology" proves which you love. Just remember:

2Th 2:10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Everyone gets what they want.
 
Upvote 0

EmethAlethia

Newbie
Oct 5, 2014
404
107
62
✟28,633.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That is because you are looking at this the wrong way. Just as the religious leaders of the day did. Jesus is not saying we must prove our love for Him by following the commandments. He is saying giving Him our heart (love) has the ability to transform and empower us to begin to keep His commandments. Obeying His commandments is the outward fruit of the inward change His Spirit produces in us... if we let Him.

Trying to prove our love (commandments) = bondage
Yielding to His love = transformation (helping us keep the commandments)

you have to have the commandments on the correct side of the =

He who has been forgiven much loves much. If you love Me you will keep My commandments. The cart comes after the horse. Those who truly understand and believe the price Jesus paid, how He died for you specifically, and how great that debt really was have no problem with the love part, and seek to figure out and obey everything simply because they believe it. No service is too great, there is nothing He could ask that I wouldn't do. I know how great my sins were. I know the price He paid for me. With all my heart I seek to figure out and obey Him. To live is Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.

Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.

The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?

It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.

For a start... Matthew 5:2--Matthew 7:28

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Matthew 4:23 Matthew 24:14 Matthew 26:13
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,444
8,397
up there
✟303,917.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
You can do nothing that will earn enough credit on God's book to cancel your debt for sin.
We can do nothing to have brought the Kingdom into being, yes. But we have plenty change to make in rejecting the self interest of mankind for the will of God that loves all as self.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
We can do nothing to have brought the Kingdom into being, yes. But
we have plenty change to make in rejecting the self interest of mankind for the will of God that loves all as self.
It is all a work of God through the Holy Spirit in the obedient believer.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.
Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.
The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.
Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?
It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.
The logical mind will not make sense of it, for it takes a spiritual mind to make sense of it.

And making sense of it begins with understanding three initial steps:
1) He's God, I'm not.
2) He makes the rules, I don't.
3) I get to stand there with my hat in my hand, and say "Yes, sir."
Until you agree with God that he is God, you will never be given understanding of his word written (John 7:17).

Next comes understanding of how the divine economy works.
God receives those who earnestly seek him.

However, their sin problem must be dealt with.
That is done only by faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing (position) with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," righteous, sanctified--called "justification."

Only faith--without works (performance) is admissible here, for
God, and God alone--apart from any performance by us--saves.

However, our sin having been paid for by Jesus Christ and the payment applied to us through faith in him, our performance (obedience) does count in our Christian life as a means of sanctification and holiness, tranforming us into the likeness of Christ, to which the the born again have been predestined (Romans 8:29). "Without holiness, no on will see the Lord." (Hebrews 12:14]

That's the plan. . .and an eminently understandable and glorious one at that!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Veteran1990

Active Member
Jul 6, 2021
159
54
54
texas
✟17,885.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
For a start... Matthew 5:2--Matthew 7:28

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. 45 And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me. 46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness. 47 And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I have not spoken of Myself; but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

Matthew 4:23 Matthew 24:14 Matthew 26:13
Again, this has nothing to do with my question, you added two verses that do not apply to the discussion
 
Upvote 0

Ligurian

Cro-Magnon
Apr 21, 2021
3,589
536
America
✟22,234.00
Country
United States
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Private
Again, this has nothing to do with my question, you added two verses that do not apply to the discussion

Matthew 13:3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when He sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
 
Upvote 0

Veteran1990

Active Member
Jul 6, 2021
159
54
54
texas
✟17,885.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 13:3 And He spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; 4 And when He sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: 5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: 6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: 8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I appreciate the value of God Scripture.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.

Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.

The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?

It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.

Aleister Crowley (a known occultist) said,

“Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.”​

Yet that is the sentiment is what I heard many Christians say (by the use of other words) over the years.

For many do not like the words of Jesus in John 14:15 and so they attempt to change them in some way. They do this because they have accepted a lie that says, “I am currently a horrible sinner (present tense) and I will continue to commit grievous sin the rest of my life and no man can keep God's commands.” If they were to say something like this, then they just said Jesus is a liar because He said that we can keep His commandments in many places in Scripture.

Jesus was not referring to the 10 commandments in John 14:15.

First, while we are not under the Old Law: if you know anything about the Old Law, it was actually 613 Laws and not just 10. Just do a Google search on the 613 laws of Moses, or you can check out this wiki fandom page here on the 613 Laws of Moses. So to say it is just 10 is simply an oversimplification of the many laws God has given to Israel.

Second, Jesus was not referring to the Old Law, but He was referring to His commandments (i.e. the New Law). For Jesus was making changes to the Law (even before the New Covenant went officially into effect with His death). For Jesus was primarily teaching New Covenant teachings and not Old Covenant teachings during His earthly ministry.

How so?

The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth"
(Matthew 5:38 cf. Exodus 21:23-25).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." (Matthew 5:39).


The Old Way says:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment" (Matthew 5:21 cf. Numbers 35:30-32).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (Matthew 5:22).


The Old Way says:
"Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:" (Matthew 5:34 cf. Numbers 30:1-2, Deuteronomy 23:21).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
34 "But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil." (Matthew 5:34-37).


The Old Way says:
"And of thy mercy cut off mine enemies, and destroy all them that afflict my soul: for I am thy servant." (Psalms 143:12).

"And the city shall be accursed, even it, and all that are therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent." (Joshua 6:17).

"And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:21).

16 "But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee" (Deuteronomy 20:16-17).

"They did not destroy the nations, concerning whom the LORD commanded them" (Psalms 106:34).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

Note: Yes, I am aware that the Old Way (Old Testament) also teaches to love one's enemies (Exodus 23:4-5) (Proverbs 25:21), but this was in context to their own Israelite people, and not pagan nations. Pagan nations were to be destroyed when God commanded the Israelites to destroy them. But Jesus taught a radically different way. Love your enemies, and do good to them that hate you, and to pray for those who persecute you.


The Old Way says:
20 "But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel." (Deuteronomy 22:20-22).

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?" (John 8:4-5).

The New Way (by Jesus) says:
"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. " (John 8:7).


Even after the cross, there were changes being made:

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."
(Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because again, Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
(John 1:17).

Jesus said,
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." (Matthew 5:17).

Jesus came not to abolish the Law (in the sense of destroying all forms of Law), but Jesus came to fulfill the Law (i.e. to nail to the cross those ordinances that were against us [like the Old Covenant ceremonial laws], and Jesus came to give us a more fulfilled and perfect way of obeying God via the commands that come directly from Him and His followers). For Jesus offered a more perfect way of loving God, and loving our neighbor (Which of course is only possible via if we are first saved by God's grace through faith).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.

Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.

The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?

It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.

There are two aspects of salvation that believers need to be concerned with primarily (Which is where many get tripped up into justifying God's grace into a license to sin or a belief that says they can sin and still be saved).

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).


So in conclusion:

When Jesus referred to how we must keep His commandments if we love Him (John 14:15), He was referring to the 2nd aspect of salvation after we are saved by the 1st aspect of salvation (Which is by God's grace). Is loving Jesus a salvation issue? Yes. Pauls says if any loves not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22). Is keeping the commandments a part of eternal life? Yes. For Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-37) (Also see: Matthew 19:17-19). Please take note that Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself in Matthew 19:19. So this was not just the 10. Jesus gave us new commandments. For Jesus said, “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.” (John 13:34). Keeping an New Covenant Law makes us free from the Old Covenant Law in Romans 8:2. For the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (NT Law) has made me free from the Law of sin and death (OT Law) (See: Romans 8:2). In fact, many today who have bought into the lie that they are hopeless in committing serious sin do not know that Paul says that if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Obviously a person who is for disobedience to God (in admitting that they cannot help but to commit serious sins their whole life) is not humble.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There is clearly a difference between the 613 Laws of Moses (the Old Law) that is no more, and the Law of Christ (i.e. the many Laws of Christ given to us by Jesus and His followers in the New Covenant or New Testament).

The Law of Christ:
(Which is NOT the 613 Laws of Moses).

“Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.” (Galatians 6:2).

“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).

“To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,)” (1 Corinthians 9:21).​

The way a person can fulfill the Old Law is NOT by keeping the 613 Laws of Moses, but Paul says we can keep the Law (the Old Law) by loving your neighbor.

“Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.” (Romans 13:8-10).

Paul is not referring to how we keep all of the Laws of Christ in Romans 13:8-10, just by loving our neighbor. Paul is referring to how we can keep the Old Law by loving our neighbor. There are many commands that are called a command that are unique in the New Covenant. Anyways, here are....


New Testament Commands That Are Called A Command:

  1. “Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength: this is the first commandment.” (Mark 12:29-30 gives us the full complete description of the 1st commandment in the Bible).

  2. “And the second is like, namely this, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:31).

  3. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. (1 John 3:23).

  4. “Repent” (i.e. Seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ) (Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, “God… now commands all men everywhere to repent”).

  5. A new commandment I give unto you, That you love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if you have love one to another (John 13:34-35).

  6. “Watch” (“For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the doorkeeper to watch. Watch you therefore: for you know not when the Master of the house comes,...” - See: Mark 13:33-37).

  7. “Honor your father and mother” (God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother - Matthew 15:4, Matthew 19:19, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20) (Ephesians 6:2-3 says “Honour your father and mother (which is the first commandment attached with a promise).

  8. Tell the women to keep silent in the churches. For it is not permitted unto them to speak, but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law; And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is a shame for women to speak in the church (1 Corinthians 14:34-35).

  9. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother who walks disorderly (2 Thessalonians 3:6).

  10. Keep the following commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ: Fight the good fight of faith, and lay hold on eternal life, whereby you are called, and have professed a good profession before many witnesses (1 Timothy 6:12-14).

  11. Keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17) (Note: The young rich ruler asked, which ones (i.e. which commands should he keep); Jesus replied, “Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:18-19) (Jesus also said as a part of these commands, “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor,” - Matthew 19:21).

Hopefully what I said with God's Word will bless them today.

To those who want to truly be faithful to God:
May you find peace, love, and joy in God.

With loving kindness to you all in Christ,

Sincerely,

BL. Highlighter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I have always been confused about The Doctrine of Salvation based on what Jesus said. My logical mind can not comprehend it.

Jesus effectively said that if you Love Him you shall obey his commandments, Yet, His commandments are the ten commandments.
That is not the doctrine of salvation.
Jesus did not give us the doctrine of salvation, because there was no salvation to give us during his lifetime. Salvation had to wait for his atoning death (Romans 3:25).
It is the apostle Paul who gave us the doctrine of salvation after the atonement.

Salvation is by faith in the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty."
It is not by works of obedience (Ephesians 2:8-9).

The Ten Commandments have nothing to do with God's remission of sin; i.e., salvation from his condemnation (Romans 5:18).
The first five applying to God and the second five applying to man: to Love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself.

Does The Bible Negate this by stating that if you attempt to follow the ten commandments you shall fall under a curse, and that Jesus shall only ever give those The Holy Spirit who follow His commandments?

It literally makes no sense to me, it never really has been able to make sense to me.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And I think this is where I get the most confused.

Based on an analysis of what God said, it seems to point out that Jesus shall not Judge them, however God The Father is stated to have given Jesus the position of Judge in The Bible.
Jesus comes twice: once to atone and once to judge (Hebrews 9:27-28).
He does not judge at the first coming, and he does not atone at the second coming.
My curiosity is that if we can not keep the ten commandments, how do we ever receive The Holy Spirit? From what I was capable of understanding Peter was asked by God if he loved him, three times, as a result of what Peter did.

My problem with this is that God yet, seemed to Give The The Holy Spirit despite their disobedience so is The Basis of Scripture and extent of reality.

Also, I'm not sure if I believe in The Concept of a trinity anymore, as a result of melchezidek being in The Bible.When Compared to that no one has seen The Father, and that Melchizidek's order is lesser than the order of Jesus, which the Bible Imply's that as a result melchezidek is not Jesus and God Himself states that there was no other God that existed before Him it is certain that if Melchezidek is both a priest and had an established order and had no origin that he is part of The Elohim.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Based on 1 John 3:23-24 does that mean we only have to believe in Him and to Love one another, or are the commandments Completelt exhaustive in The Sense you must follow them all, because if you must follow them all who is going to heaven? Even if we have an advocate,

To what extent if we always disobey? I figure I'm asking what The Purpouse of Following the commandments are if we can not keep them, and if it is not us who keeps the commandments but God's spirit how do we follow them to receive God's spirit if it is nescesarry to keep them to have it?
Salvation from God's condemnation on one' sin (Romans 5:18) is only by faith, not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Salvation is only the beginning of the whole Christian life.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Based on 1 John 3:23-24 does that mean we only have to believe in Him and to Love one another, or are the commandments Completelt exhaustive in The Sense you must follow them all, because if you must follow them all who is going to heaven? Even if we have an advocate,

To what extent if we always disobey? I figure I'm asking what The Purpouse of Following the commandments are if we can not keep them, and if it is not us who keeps the commandments but God's spirit how do we follow them to receive God's spirit if it is nescesarry to keep them to have it?
Salvation itself (from the condemnation of God on one's sin--Romans 5:18) is not based on performance of any kind (Ephesians 2:8-9).
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
God stated that all the law and the prophets hang on those two commandments which is equivalent to saying they are the ten commandments and the Preaching Of The Prophet's so, my question is reiterated. How do you keep the ten commandments if you fall under a curse and are therefore considered religious and attempting to be equal to Yahweh
The Law was not given to make righteous; i.e., to save from Gods condemnation on one's sin (Romans 5:18), it was given to reveal the nature of sin (spiritual defilement)--Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7.
and How do you receive The Holy Spirit if you must Obey Jesus Commandments which are the ten commandments which you fall under a curse for?
You are confusing the identification of a believer by Jesus (one who obeys) with "necessary works" to receive the Holy Spirit.

There are no good works without the Holy Spirit.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”

22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?”

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.
30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
Jesus seems to be emphasizing that if you obey Him The Holy Spirit shall come.
Jesus is speaking to believers. . .believers are identified by love and obedience. . .believers are the only ones to whom this is addressed. . .believers will receive a special manifestation of the Holy Spirit (Pentecost) after his resurrection.
30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
The Last two verses make absolutely no sense to me.
The prince of this world is Satan who has a hold on men because of their sinful fallen nature. Christ being sinless, Satan had no hold on him.

he comes so that is not in the Greek text.
Satan was the engineer of the cross, which would seem to be his triumph, when in reality it was the satisfaction of God's justice for men's sin, delivering men from condemnation. . . which was Satan's defeat, not triumph.

Jesus went to the cross in love and obedience to the Father, setting the example of the obedience he had commanded.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Some are confused as to which Law applies today. We are not under the 613 laws of Moses. But we are under the Laws of Christ. Some think that law keeping has nothing to do with salvation.

But Jesus says,
“if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.” (Matthew 19:17).

Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

To believe in Jesus is even a commandment (1 John 3:23).

Jesus said repent or perish in Luke 13:3 and yet we learn in Acts of the Apostles 17:30 that God now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Repentance (seeking forgiveness with God) includes the fruits of repentance (in forsaking sin and in doing good deeds) (See: Matthew 12:41 and compare with Jonah 3:6-10).

The last chapter of the Bible says this:

“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.” (Revelation 22:14).

Most of Christianity just simply does not believe this above verse. Yet it says that they who do is commandments have the right to the tree of life. Notice now the next verse.

“For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:15).

So outside of the city are murderers, idolaters, and liars, etc.; This does not sound like a live however you like and just believe in Jesus and we are good to enter the Kingdom type Theology.
 
Upvote 0