4 Reasons John was writing a gospel sermon about suffering under Rome

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keras

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Ha ha ha - says the guy who thought Isaiah's light 7 times brighter than the sun was talking about a CME when the rains are blessing the land with bountiful grain and the books are overflowing! Ha ha ha ha!
This sort of comment on an international forum, serves to reduce your credibility to rock bottom.
People here should be informed of the rivalry between Australia and New Zealand. We in NZ are viewed as poor cousins, that is if the Aussies think about NZ at all. You show this rude and derogatory attitude to me, to your discredit.

You accuse me of failing to consider context; thinking that Isaiah 30:26 will be a blessing to the world, totally avoids Isaiah 30:25-30, where the Lord will come with His anger blazing and He sieves out the nations for destruction. That is the context, the destruction of His enemies by fire from the sun.

Yes; He will keep His own faithful Christian people safe and in a very short time the holy Land will be regenerated and we will go to live there.

As for your ramble about he first Advent, etc; I doubt if anyone can figure that mish-mash out.
 
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eclipsenow

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This sort of comment on an international forum, serves to reduce your credibility to rock bottom.
People here should be informed of the rivalry between Australia and New Zealand. We in NZ are viewed as poor cousins, that is if the Aussies think about NZ at all. You show this rude and derogatory attitude to me, to your discredit.

You accuse me of failing to consider context; thinking that Isaiah 30:26 will be a blessing to the world, totally avoids Isaiah 30:25-30, where the Lord will come with His anger blazing and He sieves out the nations for destruction. That is the context, the destruction of His enemies by fire from the sun.

Yes; He will keep His own faithful Christian people safe and in a very short time the holy Land will be regenerated and we will go to live there.

As for your ramble about he first Advent, etc; I doubt if anyone can figure that mish-mash out.
Oh diddums - you're from NZ and I'm from Australia. Dude - I'd be equally appalled at your awful cherry-picking of texts to mean whatever you want if you lived in the same street!

Isaiah 30 does actually have some fire and rage against the nations - in the section AFTER the bit you chose. But if you remember from Revelation that there will be no sun because the Son is there? The particular verse you chose to highlight as proving a CME with both scripture and science is exactly the OPPOSITE of a 'great firey day of judgement' - it's God's BLESSING on his people as they repent and throw away idols. Look at the context! He is blessing his people. There is a mention of slaughter - of the enemy - but the land is overflowing with abundance - not wilting under locusts (or CME as you insert over every fire chapter you come across in the bible!) It's not my fault you cherry-picked the wrong verse when you said you had both the bible AND science on your side ha ha ha ha ha! It's just too funny.


19 People of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. 20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” 22 Then you will desecrate your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, “Away with you!”

23 He will also send you rain for the seed you sow in the ground, and the food that comes from the land will be rich and plentiful. In that day your cattle will graze in broad meadows. 24 The oxen and donkeys that work the soil will eat fodder and mash, spread out with fork and shovel. 25 In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill. 26 The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the Lord binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.​
 
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I like this summary - can I copy it please? (Add to my archives of copy & paste.)
Sure, no problem.

I would just add that Peter saw Joel fulfilled not in the Millennium, or the "Firey Day" Keras keeps going on about, but at least parts of Joel fulfilled at Pentecost.

5 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
“‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.​

We've been in the Last Days for 2000 years and counting.
Right. He very specifically indicated that what was happening on the Day of Pentecost related to what Joel prophesied in Joel 2:28-32.
 
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keras

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Oh diddums - you're from NZ and I'm from Australia. Dude - I'd be equally appalled at your awful cherry-picking of texts to mean whatever you want if you lived in the same street!
So you are rude and critical of your neighbors?
Accusations of 'cherry picking' must be accompanied by proofs of misapplication of scriptures. You seem to think that you opinion is sufficient. Trotting out the commentators is a cop out, as they could not know Gods plans for the end times. Daniel 12:4 & 9
Just making out that the sun shining 7 times brighter, is a good thing and won't hurt anyone, is a direct contradiction of the context

Isaiah 30:25-30, is plainly about dramatic events. We are given enough detail to know what will happen; the Lord will instigate a massive, earth directed CME that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. God's solution to the ME crisis!
His people, every faithful Christian, who call upon His Name during this event, will be kept safe. The few Messianic Jews will take shelter in bunkers. Isaiah 29:4 The Lord will heal their wounds; that is forgive and redeem them.
In a short while, the holy Land will be regenerated and will become as the Garden of Eden. Isaiah 51:3, Isaiah 35:6b-7, Joel 2:21-24
Right. He very specifically indicated that what was happening on the Day of Pentecost related to what Joel prophesied in Joel 2:28-32.
In no way was Joel 2:28-32 fulfilled in the first century. There was a short time, isolated incidence, preview of that prophecy.
It awaits the the time after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, as the CONTEXT proves.
 
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eclipsenow

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So you are rude and critical of your neighbors?
Accusations of 'cherry picking' must be accompanied by proofs of misapplication of scriptures. You seem to think that you opinion is sufficient.
You seem to think your dream is sufficient.

Trotting out the commentators is a cop out,
Well, I actually appealed to 2 Timothy 3:16
6 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

If it isn't in there - and is mainly from some random dream from a random guy on the internet - well, I know what I'll be siding with!

as they could not know Gods plans for the end times. Daniel 12:4 & 9
You ever actually hear yourself? Your 'understanding' comes from your dream. The peer-reviewed protestant theological process compares scripture with scripture as God's all-sufficient word that can thoroughly equip us for every necessary thing - every good work. You criticise the peer-review process which involves training in Ancient Languages, Cultures, Audiences, History etc to understand how to approach God's word and not pluck bits and bobs out of context and come up with stuff from your own subconscious like you have.

You attack them when you're the one just saying "But I'm special! I had a dream!"

Can you HEAR yourself?
Really? Can you?


Just making out that the sun shining 7 times brighter, is a good thing and won't hurt anyone, is a direct contradiction of the context
Ha ha ha ha ha!

Isaiah 30:25-30, is plainly about dramatic events. We are given enough detail to know what will happen; the Lord will instigate a massive, earth directed CME that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East. God's solution to the ME crisis!
Ha ha ha ha ha!




His people, every faithful Christian, who call upon His Name during this event, will be kept safe. The few Messianic Jews will take shelter in bunkers. Isaiah 29:4 The Lord will heal their wounds; that is forgive and redeem them.
Oh look - he plucked another verse out of context and inserted BUNKER into it! This is fun! I once thought of writing an apocalyptic novel called "Zac Steampunk" set in a post apocalypse Sydney. It was going to be like Mad Max meets Harry Potter in a fortified shopping wall. Seriously, I was doing evening writing classes and everything. I never in my wildest dreams thought of inserting my story all over the bible and forcing it to conform to my will! But good for you! You're going there. Just insert BUNKERS where-ever you want mate!

Back to the sun... this really sounds like a CME. Yeah, REALLY! :doh::oldthumbsup::doh::oldthumbsup::doh::oldthumbsup:

Isaiah 30

19 People of Zion, who live in Jerusalem, you will weep no more. How gracious he will be when you cry for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you. 20 Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21 Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” 22 Then you will desecrate your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, “Away with you!”

23 He will also send you rain for the seed you sow in the ground, and the food that comes from the land will be rich and plentiful. In that day your cattle will graze in broad meadows. 24 The oxen and donkeys that work the soil will eat fodder and mash, spread out with fork and shovel. 25 In the day of great slaughter, when the towers fall, streams of water will flow on every high mountain and every lofty hill. 26 The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the Lord binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.​

They are repenting and being given rain, and the sun shining brighter is about the Lord's blessing, just like the Lord himself will be our holy light in paradise.

In a short while, the holy Land will be regenerated and will become as the Garden of Eden. Isaiah 51:3, Isaiah 35:6b-7, Joel 2:21-24
Whatever you say. You're the one writing this story. Does it have any actors l know, like the kids from Mazerunner? There was a CME in Mazerunner - surely for consistency you should use those guys?

In no way was Joel 2:28-32 fulfilled in the first century. There was a short time, isolated incidence, preview of that prophecy.
I'm not sure what you are saying?

Anyway, Acts 2.

Acts 2:17–21
2:17–21 The quotation is from the Greek Old Testament text of Joel 2:28–32 (3:1–5). Peter’s use of the words “in the last days” (cf. Is. 2:2; Hos. 3:5; Mic. 4:1; 1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Tim. 3:1; 1 Pet. 1:20; 1 John 2:18) makes explicit that Joel is referring to the last times promised by God. Peter interprets Joel’s words as referring to the new covenant in contrast to the former days of the old covenant (Heb. 8:7; 9:1).
Acts 2:17–21 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

Now I think you were troubled by these next verses? What if it is apocalyptic language that says "The Messiah will be slain and the sun go dark, and then the world will be in a state of disorder and chaos for a while but take heart - these are all signs that anyone who calls on the Lord and trusts the gospel will be saved?"

Apocalyptic language can be weird - but sometimes reading it literally is as wrong as reading Jesus as having 7 horns and 7 eyes.


19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

See how Peter explains Joel as the gospel?

Joel and Peter remind us of the decisiveness of these last days by pointing to cosmic signs on earth and in heaven. The universe will reveal what a shambles sinful humankind makes of things by its constant assault on God's moral order. From this the human race should know that judgment must come at the day of the Lord (Is 13:6, 9; Ezek 30:3; Zeph 1:14-15). The hope held out by Joel is thus vitally significant. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (Acts 2:21/Joel 2:32).

Today, living in a time of rapid social change, moral decay, environmental crisis and seemingly unmanageable economic and political problems, we can identify with the apostle's and prophet's sense of the end. We are comforted that history is not out of control, for God is constantly at work. We live in the time of the Spirit's life-giving presence—and there is the challenge: will we call on the name of the Lord and be saved?
Apologia for Pentecost: Ultimate Cause and Saving Significance (2:14-21) - IVP New Testament Commentary Series - Bible Gateway
 
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Marilyn C

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19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

See how Peter explains Joel as the gospel?

Joel and Peter remind us of the decisiveness of these last days by pointing to cosmic signs on earth and in heaven. The universe will reveal what a shambles sinful humankind makes of things by its constant assault on God's moral order. From this the human race should know that judgment must come at the day of the Lord (Is 13:6, 9; Ezek 30:3; Zeph 1:14-15). The hope held out by Joel is thus vitally significant. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (Acts 2:21/Joel 2:32).

Today, living in a time of rapid social change, moral decay, environmental crisis and seemingly unmanageable economic and political problems, we can identify with the apostle's and prophet's sense of the end. We are comforted that history is not out of control, for God is constantly at work. We live in the time of the Spirit's life-giving presence—and there is the challenge: will we call on the name of the Lord and be saved?
Apologia for Pentecost: Ultimate Cause and Saving Significance (2:14-21) - IVP New Testament Commentary Series - Bible Gateway

Hi esclipsenow,

What ever happened to -

`....a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be GENTLE to ALL, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition...` (2 Tim. 2: 24)

Now have you read Joel 2: 28 - 32 in context? Who is the `northern army,` and when did, or will that occur? (Joel 2: 20)

Marilyn.
 
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eclipsenow

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Hi esclipsenow,

What ever happened to - `....a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be GENTLE to ALL, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition...` (2 Tim. 2: 24)


I think that is a general characteristic, which many would say characterises my approach with the majority of situations where I try to encourage brothers and sisters in Christ. But what's happening with Keras is a profoundly disturbing breach of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. He wants us to trust in his vision which then informs his reading of the bible. That's not how it is done.

Also, how many young (more impressionable) people find someone like Keras exciting? Wow - a CME sometime in the next decade - the antiChrist in 2026 - the temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem - wow! How exciting! So much more REAL and exciting than the gospel. Then it doesn't happen. How many young people are going to lose their faith?

That's why I'm trying to shock Keras out of his comfort zone with all this delusional rubbish. I'm trying Paul's approach in Galations 5:12 where he says "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" When the gospel itself - or in this case - the faith of young people is at stake - I've just got to name the profoundly contradictory and ridiculous for what it is.

Now have you read Joel 2: 28 - 32 in context? Who is the `northern army,` and when did, or will that occur? (Joel 2: 20)
Ever notice how the Apostles sometimes quote OT stuff and appropriate it for their needs? I doubt they are concerned for the armies of the north. Peter didn't bother to explain it. He basically explained that the Holy Spirit was coming into the life of God's people for the first time. What does it mean that Joel was being fulfilled in Acts 2 at Pentecost? Repent, believe the gospel, for the Lord will return - one day. That's what all that apocalyptic language comes down to. So don't try and distract me with YOUR concerns about Joel when Peter is not distracted by them. The Old Testament provides the unfolding plan of God that we see fulfilled in the New, but the New Testament interprets the Old Testament. Where an Apostle has interpreted an OT passage as fulfilled, then I'm going to side with the God-breathed words of the Apostolic author.
 
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keras

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Hi esclipsenow,

What ever happened to -

`....a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be GENTLE to ALL, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition...` (2 Tim. 2: 24)
No chance. His style is to denigrate and put down anything that conflicts with his Sydney Anglican beliefs.
I almost feel sorry for him, as when the Lord does take action, it is people like him, who will be shocked and terrified.
 
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Marilyn C

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I think that is a general characteristic, which many would say characterises my approach with the majority of situations where I try to encourage brothers and sisters in Christ. But what's happening with Keras is a profoundly disturbing breach of 2 Timothy 3:16-17. He wants us to trust in his vision which then informs his reading of the bible. That's not how it is done.

Also, how many young (more impressionable) people find someone like Keras exciting? Wow - a CME sometime in the next decade - the antiChrist in 2026 - the temple being rebuilt in Jerusalem - wow! How exciting! So much more REAL and exciting than the gospel. Then it doesn't happen. How many young people are going to lose their faith?

That's why I'm trying to shock Keras out of his comfort zone with all this delusional rubbish. I'm trying Paul's approach in Galations 5:12 where he says "As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!" When the gospel itself - or in this case - the faith of young people is at stake - I've just got to name the profoundly contradictory and ridiculous for what it is.


Ever notice how the Apostles sometimes quote OT stuff and appropriate it for their needs? I doubt they are concerned for the armies of the north. Peter didn't bother to explain it. He basically explained that the Holy Spirit was coming into the life of God's people for the first time. What does it mean that Joel was being fulfilled in Acts 2 at Pentecost? Repent, believe the gospel, for the Lord will return - one day. That's what all that apocalyptic language comes down to. So don't try and distract me with YOUR concerns about Joel when Peter is not distracted by them. The Old Testament provides the unfolding plan of God that we see fulfilled in the New, but the New Testament interprets the Old Testament. Where an Apostle has interpreted an OT passage as fulfilled, then I'm going to side with the God-breathed words of the Apostolic author.

Yes very important to `shun profane and vain babblings...` (2 Tim. 2: 16) However sarcasm and putting down some one is not included there. What is necessary is `dividing the word of truth,` and `speaking the truth in love.` (2 Tim. 2: 2: 15, Eph. 4: 15)

As all of God`s word is written by Him, then it is not a matter of siding with this or that writer. They were under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and each wrote some part that was necessary for the whole.

`All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.` (2 Tim. 3: 16 & 17)

So it seems to me that you would not have young people to know what God says concerning our day. It seems you relegate what God says as either to the distant past or some time in the distant future. However God says `I am that I am.` He is God of the NOW.

Also salvation is the means to what God has planned for us. `God added to the church daily...` and we are to make disciples teaching them all things.....` Thus to just concentrate on salvation is missing all of who the Lord is and what He desires to do in someone`s life, and what their eternal inheritance is.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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No chance. His style is to denigrate and put down anything that conflicts with his Sydney Anglican beliefs.
I almost feel sorry for him, as when the Lord does take action, it is people like him, who will be shocked and terrified.

Yes keras. Though we know we don`t agree on some things, there is no excise for such behaviour.
 
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No chance. His style is to denigrate and put down anything that conflicts with his Sydney Anglican beliefs.
I almost feel sorry for him, as when the Lord does take action, it is people like him, who will be shocked and terrified.

Do you still deny that those who are in Christ are under His New Covenant in His Blood?
 
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So, do you think that Paul had in mind "Satan" as the answer to his question in Romans 8:33 instead of no one? If so, you are alone in that interpretation.

It started long ago when Adam and Eve sinned. You can see in the book of Job that he appeared before God to accuse Job long ago. It ended when Christ defeated Satan on the cross. Or some would say when He rose again. And some would even say it was shortly before that because in Luke 10:18 Jesus said "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" and in John 12:31 He said "now shall the prince of this world be cast out". Regardless, Satan being cast out of heaven happened long ago. Once Christ provided for the forgiveness of sins, then Satan no longer had anything to accuse believers of because their sins were forgiven.

Do you think Satan can accuse you of sins that you have been forgiven for? Who can make a charge/accusation against God's elect? No one, including Satan. In Romans 8:33, Paul was asking a rhetorical question that all believers should know the answer to, but you don't.
If it is a rhetorical question, there is no answer. Satan cannot charge us with anything. That does not mean he stops attempting to accuse us. So Jesus Christ has been the living advocate since Adam and Eve? Jesus stopped being the advocate at the Cross, because that was no longer necessary?


He became our advocate when He ascended to the right hand of the Father. Since He is there in heaven as our advocate, Satan has nothing to accuse us of because Jesus has already advocated on our behalf and His blood covers our sins. In order to accuse us, Satan would have to go through Jesus and that isn't going to happen.

It will end at His second coming because there will be no more sin after that.

If Satan has been bound, then Satan cannot accuse us. No need to since all God sees is the Cross anyways.

I agree that sin will stop at the Second Coming, because there is no sin in the 1000 year reign of Christ. Satan is bound, and cannot even decieve the Nations. Your reasons for having Satan bound since the Cross has not changed reality. Nations have been decieved since the Cross. People still feel guilty, even though they have faith in the Atonement. Christ is still our advocate against the only accuser ever named in Scripture.

Being bound since the Cross literally means nothing. It is only in the form of symbolism. Why claim it cannot be during the 1000 year reign of Christ after sin has been eradicated and Satan has been bound in the pit?
 
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Timtofly

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I wasn't saying that your writings shouldn't be free. Of course they should be since they don't benefit anyone. Why would anyone pay for false teaching? No, I'm saying that you being able to do your self promotion here shouldn't be for free. You should pay this website to do that if you haven't already.
If there were not so many posters going around as accusers of the brethren, the subject would have never been brought up.
 
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Timtofly

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It's been the time of the end for a long time now already.

1 John 2:18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

Hebrews 1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

The coming of the Holy Spirit to dwell in people's hearts along with the writing of the New Testament is what gives people understanding of Daniel's prophecies. It's not talking about a select few understanding it shortly before the end of the age, as you believe.

For example, being able to read about Christ's death and resurrection and how He put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices while establishing the new covenant with His blood and the subsequent preaching of the gospel first in Israel is what gives us understanding of the 70th week of Daniel's 70 week prophecy. Many have understood that for a long time now.

That is complete nonsense. You're coming up with your own definition of "the time of the end" without letting scripture define that for you. You think Paul or John would agree with your definition of the time of the end when they said themselves that it was already "the last hour" and the "last days" when they were alive?

Who is saying that His plans don't matter? No one here on this forum is saying that. Disagreeing with you on what His plans are does not equate to not caring what His plans are.
It was the last days for the OT economy. Especially for those still relying on the Temple.

It was the beginning of the church, not the last days of the church. We have to consider this was still the first century. Do you think the early church fathers had the end all figured out, yet still went back and forth on if Jesus was God or not?
 
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keras

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Do you still deny that those who are in Christ are under His New Covenant in His Blood?
The old Covenant is annulled. Zechariah 11:10
The new Covenant is not made yet.
Jesus has done His part, it now awaits the great second Exodus of all the Lord's people into all of the holy Land, where He will Bless them and make a new Covenant with them. Ezekiel 37:28, Isaiah 61:8, Jeremiah 32:40
 
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