The blessing and the curse of personal interpretation of scripture

Root of Jesse

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Of course that's true also. Catholics are fiercely loyal to their church, but when it comes to doctrine, they're all over the place, just as is the case in many other denominations. And I am not referring only to what might be called policies, like women's ordination or birth control.

This has been documented many times.
Oh, I know, and we grumble about those who claim to be Catholic but don't believe what the Church teaches, even the most basic. That's why I seldom say "Catholics believe..." rather "The Church teaches..."
 
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Root of Jesse

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If the premise is accepted that the theology surrounding baptism that came from the 3rd-4th century is authoritative, then sure. But there's no reason to accept the speculations of those men as an authority, especially as many of them veered into claiming that the water itself was salvific including Augustine. Simply because old debates remain unresolved does not mean Scripture is not sufficient, especially as anyone seeking to dispose of the practice of baptism is clearly against it regardless of the surrounding theology.
Why? James does say "Baptism now saves you." And it's not just the water which is salvific. And who says they're not resolved? You. For us, they are resolved completely.
 
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fhansen

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If the premise is accepted that the theology surrounding baptism that came from the 3rd-4th century is authoritative, then sure. But there's no reason to accept the speculations of those men as an authority, especially as many of them veered into claiming that the water itself was salvific including Augustine. Simply because old debates remain unresolved does not mean Scripture is not sufficient, especially as anyone seeking to dispose of the practice of baptism is clearly against it regardless of the surrounding theology.
The speculation just involved the mechanism of how baptism saved, not whether or not it was necessary. Theology always comes later, and may or may not be relevant, may or may not be trivial. The belief and practice began at the beginning; the commentary afterwards.
 
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pescador

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All amounts to the same thing at the end of the day. One will use Scripture as the rule of faith and affirm the ancient belief of baptismal regeneration while another will use the same Scripture to deny it, both arguments being plausible. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, IOW, is unworkable in any practical sense.

Don't blame the Bible if you can't understand it. The Bible is considered by Christians and Jews to be the Word of God. All the misunderstandings and poor interpretations, as well as the immense amount of stuff added onto it, especially by the Catholic church, doesn't alter that fact.

Sola Scriptura means that the Bible alone contains God's pure, unadulterated truth and wisdom. Nothing that humans add to it or subtract from it can change that -- ever.
 
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Fervent

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Why? James does say "Baptism now saves you." And it's not just the water which is salvific. And who says they're not resolved? You. For us, they are resolved completely.
If that's accepted, you proved Scripture alone is sufficient contrary to his complaint.

The speculation just involved the mechanism of how baptism saved, not whether or not it was necessary. Theology always comes later, and may or may not be relevant, may or may not be trivial. The belief and practice began at the beginning; the commentary afterwards.
The speculation was essentially the same with whether it was regenerative and where it fits in the economy of salvation. The verbiage is different, but that's because there are so many different avenues its been explored under.
 
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fhansen

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Don't blame the Bible if you can't understand it.
But who besides yourself, and those who happen to agree with you (and not all do based on Scripture alone), say that you understand it?? And at least in the overall scheme of most teachings I also have the testimony of the early church and ECFs to confirm my understandings of the Word.
 
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Fervent

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But who besides yourself, and those who happen to agree with you (and not all do based on Scripture alone), say that you understand it?? And at least in the overall scheme of most teachings I also have the testimony of the early church and ECFs to confirm my understandings of the Word.
It would seem to me you're excluding the middle inappropriately. The options ar not naked Scripture vs an enshrined magisterium, sola scriptura is compatible with being historically informed. Sola scriptura is merely the rejection of "Holy Tradition" not tradition entirely.
 
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fhansen

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If that's accepted, you proved Scripture alone is sufficient contrary to his complaint.


The speculation was essentially the same with whether it was regenerative and where it fits in the economy of salvation. The verbiage is different, but that's because there are so many different avenues its been explored under.
Far and away the ECFs adamantly taught baptismal regeneration. It was simply the belief and practice.
 
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fhansen

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It would seem to me you're excluding the middle inappropriately. The options ar not naked Scripture vs an enshrined magisterium, sola scriptura is compatible with being historically informed. Sola scriptura is merely the rejection of "Holy Tradition" not tradition entirely.
And that will never satisfy anyone who disagrees with and rejects whatever Tradition or tradition one puts forth as relevant.
 
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Fervent

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Far and away the ECFs adamantly taught baptismal regeneration. It was simply the belief and practice.
The ECF are just as ambiguous as the Bible on the matter, and just as subject to interpretive biases. Baptism theology really didn't become a major question until the 3rd-5th century.
 
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fhansen

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Sure, but the fault lies with them not the doctrine.
And they would say the same for yourself. If you're referring to the doctrine of SS, it has no inherent allowance for a role for tradition to play. And while many of us would insist that said tradition is quite relevant for knowing the faith, for adding historical practice and experience to the equation, that cannot be proven, especially to one who wishes to stand on an opposing belief based on their interpretation of Scripture.

Even with ECFS, people often agree with them where they agree with their own positions, and then claim forgery where they don't.
 
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pescador

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But who besides yourself, and those who happen to agree with you (and not all do based on Scripture alone), say that you understand it?? And at least in the overall scheme of most teachings I also have the testimony of the early church and ECFs to confirm my understandings of the Word.

What makes you think that the CC has the handle on the truth? There are so many distortions of the Word and add-ons -- the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and their (often questionable) teachings, a separate priesthood (similar to the OT), veneration of Mary (a minor figure in the NT), rituals upon rituals, confession to and absolution by someone other than God, and all the other stuff that has been added on to pure faith, etc. It's no wonder that the Bible has lost its (deserved) place of prominence in the CC.

The Bible has been given to us as the perfect Word of God. If our understanding is not perfect, that doesn't mean that it doesn't stand alone as the truth. Sola scriptura.
 
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Fervent

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And they would say me for yourself. If your referring to the doctrine of SS, it has no inherent allowance for a role for tradition to play. And while many of us would insist that said tradition is quite relevant for knowing the faith, for adding historical practice and experience to the equation, that cannot be proven, especially to one who wishes to stand on an opposing belief based on their interpretation of Scripture.

Even with ECFS, people often agree with them where they agree with their own positions, and then claim forgery where they don't.
The people who put forth sola scriptura would disagree there's no room for tradition. Jan Hus, Luther, Calvin all made extensive use of early writers in their arguments. You're confusing it with what has come to be called nuda scriptura, which proponents of sola scriptura agree is an error. Sola scriptura requires that Scripture be the final authority, unequaled. It does not require it be the sole authority, reason and history are necessary for a proper interpretation. The abuses you're highlighting are just as possible with any other source of authority, with the individual themselves to blame not the doctrines they hold.
 
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fhansen

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The people who put forth sola scriptura would disagree there's no room for tradition. Jan Hus, Luther, Calvin all made extensive use of early writers in their arguments. You're confusing it with what has come to be called nuda scriptura, which proponents of sola scriptura agree is an error. Sola scriptura requires that Scripture be the final authority, unequaled. It does not require it be the sole authority, reason and history are necessary for a proper interpretation. The abuses you're highlighting are just as possible with any other source of authority, with the individual themselves to blame not the doctrines they hold.
In order for it to work the tradition referred to must be considered Tradition, on a par with Scripture in terms of being God's revelation to man. Otherwise it's just easily, and reasonably, dismissed.
 
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Fervent

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In order for it to work the tradition referred to must be considered Tradition, on a par with Scripture in terms of being God's revelation to man. Otherwise it's just easily, and reasonably, dismissed.
No, tradition doesn't have to be infallible to inform interpretation. As I said, you're doing exactly as the pharisees did in elevating the halaka.
 
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fhansen

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No, tradition doesn't have to be infallible to inform interpretation. As I said, you're doing exactly as the pharisees did in elevating the halaka.
With that logic, then no tradition should be considered worthwhile for any purpose. But even Scripture said to hold onto unwritten teachings/traditions, meaning there can be traditions of God-as well as traditions of men. We error when we wish to believe that the bible was intended to serve as a clear and exhaustive catechism.
 
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Albion

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All amounts to the same thing at the end of the day./One will use Scripture as the rule of faith and affirm the ancient belief of baptismal regeneration while another will use the same Scripture to deny it, both arguments being plausible.

It is amazing how such a straightforward concept as Sola Scriptura can be misrepresented or misunderstood after so many explanations have been given.

What you've done in this post is point to mistakes that allegedly have been made by people who have read Scripture. That's all! And it seems to be all that you've offered me in post after post. Humans can make mistakes when reading Scripture. that applies to Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox Christians alike, whether they believe in Sola Scriptura or not.

Yes.

But as for Sola Scriptura...
It didn't come in for any analysis from you in this post at all!

:sigh:
 
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fhansen

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It didn't come in for any analysis from you at all!
I think you're just avoiding the simple truth. Any rule of faith serves no purpose if we cannot reliably and consistently know what it means to assert as being the rule, itself. Ambiguity and vagueness, resulting in plausible disagreement, means that we lack the rule to begin with on relevant points that the doctrine of SS would have us apply.
 
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Albion

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I think you're just avoiding the simple truth.
I don't know if you actually believe that or not. But it doesn't matter much since I cannot comment further on Sola Scriptura if you don't ask about Sola Scriptura or at least speak to the issue of God's word in revelation being the most authoritative source of guidance for essential doctrine.

Any rule of faith serves no purpose if we cannot reliably and consistently know what it means to assert as being the rule, itself.
Okay. And I've explained it to you and others here many times.

Ambiguity and vagueness, resulting in plausible disagreement, means that we lack the rule to begin with on relevant points that the doctrine of SS would have us apply.

Really, Sola Scriptura is about the most clearcut and unambiguous religious concept that gets debated on these forums!

So if you have some question about Sola Scriptura, not about people who make mistakes when reading the Bible, whether Catholics or Protestants, go ahead now that you have had the idea explained once again. Otherwise, I don't know what more can be done.
 
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