You believe a person can be saved never reading the bible?

Saint Steven

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Hello you and welcome.

Do you believe a person can be saved never reading the bible?

Is there anyway for God to divinely intervene with this person who may have faith in the existence of God never reading the bible?

What are your thoughts on God being powerful enough to even interact with his creation outside the parameters of possibly never hearing, or reading the bible?
No one in Hebrews chapter eleven (the faith chapter) ever read the Bible. Were they saved?
 
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bbbbbbb

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No one in Hebrews chapter eleven (the faith chapter) ever read the Bible. Were they saved?

No one in Hebrews chapter eleven believed in Jesus Christ either. Were they saved if, in fact, there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved?
 
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Saint Steven

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No one in Hebrews chapter eleven believed in Jesus Christ either. Were they saved if, in fact, there is no other name given among men by which we must be saved?
What does your brain tell you? Is everyone in the faith chapter lost because you claim they didn't believe in Jesus?

Saint Steven said:
No one in Hebrews chapter eleven (the faith chapter) ever read the Bible. Were they saved?
 
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bbbbbbb

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What does your brain tell you? Is everyone in the faith chapter lost because you claim they didn't believe in Jesus?

Saint Steven said:
No one in Hebrews chapter eleven (the faith chapter) ever read the Bible. Were they saved?

Nope. I was just raising the point because of the obvious difficulty in fitting Old Testament saints into the New Testament claims for the exclusivity of faith in Jesus Christ alone.
 
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Emet_Ziton

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Do you believe a person can be saved never reading the bible?

Is there anyway for God to divinely intervene with this person who may have faith in the existence of God never reading the bible?

What are your thoughts on God being powerful enough to even interact with his creation outside the parameters of possibly never hearing, or reading the bible?
In Matthew 25, Jesus is separating the sheep from the goats. He says "Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world." He then lists a bunch of activities that they performed. Not one of which mentions belief or faith, by the way. It's all actions like feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the sick. Those people say back to him..."When?"

In short, they had no idea what they had done was getting them saved. At the very least, they never read or heard that chapter of the Bible.

The Good Samaritan was neither Jew nor Christian, and yet his tale is how Jesus used to finish answering the question, "Master, how do I obtain eternal life." He says we should "go and do likewise." Do we imagine the Good Samaritan went to hell?

And of course, as pointed out already, Paul speaks plainly in Romans about how, those that have never heard the law 'are a law unto themselves', and their conscience either bears witness for or against them on the day of judgment.

So - there you have it.
 
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fhansen

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Hello you and welcome.

Do you believe a person can be saved never reading the bible?

Is there anyway for God to divinely intervene with this person who may have faith in the existence of God never reading the bible?

What are your thoughts on God being powerful enough to even interact with his creation outside the parameters of possibly never hearing, or reading the bible?
It has to do with hearing the word, of course, as arguably most believers have been illiterate down through the centuries. But even then faith is near all of us to begin with. Having God’s presence and direct knowledge of Him is something we’re all made for, but have been artificially and unnaturally cut off from at the Fall, and by the continued pride that we all possess and participate in as a result. Man was made for communion with God and we exist in a disordered, unjust state until we’re reconnected with Him, a relationship constituted by faith, hope, and, most fully and importantly, love.

And this is the God Jesus came to reveal, to give us the full “knowledge of God” so we’ll have something truly worth believing in, hoping in, and loving. But God beckons us in our hearts already:
“For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.” Rom 1:19-20

Paul quotes Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and then Joel in Rom 10:
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”

“It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


When we see, hear, and believe in Jesus we’ve met the God that we already know in our hearts exists. And, yes, I believe some people express that faith in various ways, even if it’s not so fully and perfectly informed by having met Him directly. And we see that expression in the fruits of obedience to a higher law, where people live as those who conscience compels them to refrain from sin, or help their neighbor as the Good Samaritan modeled.
“(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.“ Rom 2:14-16
 
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bbbbbbb

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It has to do with hearing the word, of course, as arguably most believers have been illiterate down through the centuries. But even then faith is near all of us to begin with. Having God’s presence and direct knowledge of Him is something we’re all made for, but have been artificially and unnaturally cut off from at the Fall, and by the continued pride that we all possess and participate in as a result. Man was made for communion with God and we exist in a disordered, unjust state until we’re reconnected with Him, a relationship constituted by faith, hope, and, most fully and importantly, love.

And this is the God Jesus came to reveal, to give us the full “knowledge of God” so we’ll have something truly worth believing in, hoping in, and loving. But God beckons us in our hearts already:
“For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and darkened in their foolish hearts.” Rom 1:19-20

Paul quotes Deuteronomy, Isaiah, and then Joel in Rom 10:
But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”

“It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.”

“Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”


When we see, hear, and believe in Jesus we’ve met the God that we already know in our hearts exists. And, yes, I believe some people express that faith in various ways, even if it’s not so fully and perfectly informed by having met Him directly. And we see that expression in the fruits of obedience to a higher law, where people live as those who conscience compels them to refrain from sin, or help their neighbor as the Good Samaritan modeled.
“(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.“ Rom 2:14-16

That is quite a lovely explanation. One flaw in your argument is "When we see, hear, and believe in Jesus we’ve met the God that we already know in our hearts exists." Speaking from my own experience I assuredly did not meet the God the I already knew in my heart exists. I despised Christians. Christianity, and the God of Christianity. My experience was much like Paul on the road to Damascus. It would be foolish to assert that when Paul was converted he suddenly discovered the God who he knew in his heart existed.
 
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shineyourlight

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Hello you and welcome.

Do you believe a person can be saved never reading the bible?

Is there anyway for God to divinely intervene with this person who may have faith in the existence of God never reading the bible?

What are your thoughts on God being powerful enough to even interact with his creation outside the parameters of possibly never hearing, or reading the bible?
Believe it or not, there are some places in this world that have never encountered other human beings. I remember watching a video on it at Bible college and was amazed. The question was: These people never heard of the gospel because of where they live. Are they going to hell if they've never had a chance to know Christ? Then we debated about it.

This question reminded me of it and brings me to an answer: God is God. I don't want to put Him in a box. Because He doesn't live in a box, He doesn't belong in a box. He is God overall. In my heart, I believe that He will intervene in those people's lives that don't have Bibles (the ones that live in the different parts of the world).

He moves because He chooses to move in people's lives.
 
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RDKirk

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Scripture indicates that God takes ignorance into consideration in His judgment.

For instance, in the book of Jonah, God explicitly states that the reason He refused to destroy the Ninevites without them first hearing from a prophet was because of their ignorance.

Jesus said: "If you were blind, you would be innocent, but because you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains."

Jesus also said:

The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded....

Paul put this same sentiment in a negative fashion:

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.


Psalm 19 tells us that God reveals His existence and essential character in creation, which Paul points out in Romans 1. Paul noted actual results, people who did recognize God in creation when he spoke in Athens:

For as I walked around and examined your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore what you worship as something unknown, I now proclaim to you.
....
God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us.


Job appears to have been a person who recognized God from creation. Job is unique in that it speaks of God's existence solely through His creation--great creatures of land and sea, constellations of stars in the sky, great tidal movements and weather--rather than His acts for Hebrew patriarchs. Job himself references learning of God through creation:

But ask the animals, and they will instruct you; ask the birds of the air, and they will tell you.
Or speak to the earth, and it will teach you; let the fish of the sea inform you.
Which of all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this?


So what we see in scripture is that God takes ignorance into account in His judgment, but there is enough witness of Him in creation itself that nobody can claim absolute ignorance (except infants). God will judge those who never heard of Jesus by how they walked in the light that they had.
 
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Saint Steven

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Believe it or not, there are some places in this world that have never encountered other human beings. I remember watching a video on it at Bible college and was amazed. The question was: These people never heard of the gospel because of where they live. Are they going to hell if they've never had a chance to know Christ? Then we debated about it.

This question reminded me of it and brings me to an answer: God is God. I don't want to put Him in a box. Because He doesn't live in a box, He doesn't belong in a box. He is God overall. In my heart, I believe that He will intervene in those people's lives that don't have Bibles (the ones that live in the different parts of the world).

He moves because He chooses to move in people's lives.
That seems like the "He's God so he can do whatever he wants." idea. But what does that say about his character? Is a cosmic tyrant that can do as he pleases? Like an angry volcano god?
 
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shineyourlight

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That seems like the "He's God so he can do whatever he wants." idea. But what does that say about his character? Is a cosmic tyrant that can do as he pleases? Like an angry volcano god?
That's not what I mean. He is slow to anger. He is forgiving. He is grace. Jesus saved us from His wrath (Romans 5:9).

I think you took my statement out of context since I'm talking about Him doing what He can do with the salvation of people. That doesn't seem like I was saying He was an angry God, but maybe you interpreted it as that. :)
 
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GallagherM

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God can’t do whatever he desires; that is against his own nature and character. The ability to reach others that are not in society like us Americans are. It is said that God is know through nature. So someone out there who might not even know American language can call out to the all creator God, by simply coming to a conscious decision inside of their heart there is something greater than themselves that created them. That is my view. Thank you for sharing yours @shineyourlight
 
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Thank you all so much for sharing your insight and information.

I think babies who die will be saved (Romans 5:13) (2 Samuel 12:23), and people who accept Christ as their Savior on their deathbed will be saved (Luke 23:43). So in these cases, they were saved without having ever read the Bible. For a baby does not know how to read, and a man on his deathbed may hear a few verses to get saved by a Pastor (but he has not read or studied the Bible himself).

Now, some also have pointed out that other believers throughout history may not have had access to an entire Bible, too. So then they are only obligated to keep those words that they could read on an ongoing basis.

However, when God's Word (the Holy Bible) became available for the everyday common man, I believe this changed. For Jesus said, And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required (Luke 12:48) (ASV). Meaning, when the Bible became available for every man to own and read for himself, he was given much and much would then be required of him. This does not mean he is without any responsibility in not reading, believing, and obeying the Bible.

For example: While we are not under the Mosaic Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) as a whole or as an entire contract (Romans 6:14) (Galatians 5:4) (Hebrews 7:12), certain Laws in the Old Law have been repeated (or carried over) in the many commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (i.e. the Law of Christ - Galatians 6:2, Romans 8:2, 1 Corinthians 9:21). We also have to keep in mind that there are certain laws mentioned in the Old that are not mentioned in the New that still apply under the New Covenant (or New Testament) like do not partake of inappropriate behavior with animals (Leviticus 18:23), and do not tattoo yourself (Leviticus 19:28). For Paul says, “But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;” (1 Timothy 1:8). However, the ceremonial laws in the Old Law (or the Mosaic Law) do not apply anymore like the Saturday Sabbath, dietary laws, circumcision, and holy days do not apply anymore under the New Covenant (See: Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 4:5, Galatians 5:2, Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). In other words, we have to rightly divide the Word of God (See: 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB). But there are useful and beneficial things to our faith in the Old Testament (i.e. the Holy Bible).

So the Old Covenant or Old Testament has many lessons and truths within it that can be applied to the believer today even though many things within the Old Covenant do not apply to us anymore as New Covenant believers. Much of the Old Covenant points to the New in that it points to Jesus Christ and His grace and love. But believers are to primarily follow the New Testament (or New Covenant). For we are New Covenant believers (or followers of Jesus Christ). However, if we do not obey the instructions of our Lord or believe them, we are simply doing our own thing vs. following God.

In other words, we as believers need to speak out God's Word to ourselves on a daily basis when we can for us to learn and obey. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). We build our faith by hearing the words of God (Which come from the Holy Bible). So just because God has chosen others to not have any responsibility in reading the Word of God (the Bible), it does not mean we are free in not believing and obeying the faith (which are words from the Holy Bible).
 
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shineyourlight

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God can’t do whatever he desires; that is against his own nature and character. The ability to reach others that are not in society like us Americans are. It is said that God is know through nature. So someone out there who might not even know American language can call out to the all creator God, by simply coming to a conscious decision inside of their heart there is something greater than themselves that created them. That is my view. Thank you for sharing yours @shineyourlight
You're misunderstanding what I'm saying :)

I'm talking about in the context of salvation. That is all.
 
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fhansen

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That is quite a lovely explanation. One flaw in your argument is "When we see, hear, and believe in Jesus we’ve met the God that we already know in our hearts exists." Speaking from my own experience I assuredly did not meet the God the I already knew in my heart exists. I despised Christians. Christianity, and the God of Christianity. My experience was much like Paul on the road to Damascus. It would be foolish to assert that when Paul was converted he suddenly discovered the God who he knew in his heart existed.
I understand what you're saying. I think at most we all carry a sort of distorted image of God within us, as the default position of fallen man, of a God who's primarily only distant and angry. And until we meet the true God through the person of Jesus Christ we don't really know Him, and even then we only begin to do so.

But at the same time I see that new knowledge as an awakening of something we already know but that's been covered, dimmed, stamped out by the Fall which resulted not only in a distancing from God but a distancing from our own selves. Only in God do we become the person we're created to be-and meeting Him is an awful lot like coming home to a place that we don't quite remember but that's somehow very familiar at the same time. We may continue to prefer the darkness, however, to prefer ourselves over God and the knowledge of Him-as it gets in the way of our own futile agendas.
 
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After a believer is saved by God's grace: I believe that a genuine believer who abides in Christ will want to seek to obey the commands of Christ because they love Him. For Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). We know the commands of Christ are found in the New Testament. Jesus said to the disciples that if others receive them, they are receiving Him (Jesus) (See: John 13:20). So we are to obey the commands also given to us by the apostles, as well. For even the apostle Paul said that what he had written should be regarded as the commandments of the Lord (1 Corinthians 14:37).

Can we say that we can disobey the Lord's commands and still be saved?

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).

Can those who continue to lie (without repentance) be saved?

Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:8).

Notice also it says that those who are unbelieving will be cast into the lake of fire, too. What are they not believing? The Word of God (i.e. the Bible). For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. The Bible is more than just a book of knowledge but it is a book of love in how we are to love God and others. It is a book about how to have a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is our Creatior, and Savior). The Bible is a book of faith. Faith in Christ. For Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). But we have to obey Jesus and not just believe on Him alone. For Jesus said that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built His house upon the sand and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (See: Matthew 7:26-27).

To believe the Bible is to have faith. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin. So our whole life in what we do and say should be aligned with what the Word of God says. We should do all things to the glory of God and that starts with studying God's Word to show ourselves approved unto God (See: 2 Timothy 2:15 KJB). So while others may not have been given the same responsibility to read the Bible like we have, we do have the responsibility to read and obey the Bible. For without the Bible there is no faith. Without the Bible we are like a captain on a boat without a compass or direction.
 
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