Why did God create you?

fide

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We can debate the word "created" or "just society" (helping somebody or forgiving somebody is not exactly "just"), but you got the main point.
Good. But I don't think we differ using the word "just" as in "just society". "Just society" would mean a society where justice - or righteousness - prevails. A just man is a righteous man, one who lives the justice of God, returning to God all that is right and due to Him.

But the word which I used in my paraphrase would be troubling to me: "we are instruments of God"? - no, much more than "instruments", I must say. A person is more than an instrument of another, even of God. God created persons, having a dignity of being a "who" and not a "what." God Himself is a Trinity of divine Persons; the angels are persons, human beings are persons made in the image and likeness of God, made for personal communion with Him - not merely as instruments of His will, for His purposes, but to be participants with Him in His will, to have fellowship with Him in His purposes.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The reality of our human vocation into this personal and intimate communion - or fellowship - with the all-holy God, seems to me to be a foundational difference between the Catholic and protestant understandings of Christianity. I hear protestants deeply incensed, offended and scandalized by Catholic honor paid to human holiness - as in the saints, especially Mary the Mother of God. I am told we are dishonoring God, in honoring as we do the saints, and Mary especially - but as we see it, the saints and Mary have most beautifully risen to the calling in Christ that is God's will for us!

We are called to holiness, and to the perfection of holy charity (divine love). Why do we say that? Because we are called into personal communion with Him! And there is no communion with Him except in holiness! Protestants tell me that we are insulting God by recognizing human persons as having entered into the fullness of His will for us all - holiness, and the perfection of divine love. Protestants seem to diminish the call into Christ down to maybe one notch above being a "good citizen", but nothing close to the call into the holiness of beatitude in His glory, in heaven.

Your thoughts?
 
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trophy33

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Good. But I don't think we differ using the word "just" as in "just society". "Just society" would mean a society where justice - or righteousness - prevails. A just man is a righteous man, one who lives the justice of God, returning to God all that is right and due to Him.

But the word which I used in my paraphrase would be troubling to me: "we are instruments of God"? - no, much more than "instruments", I must say. A person is more than an instrument of another, even of God. God created persons, having a dignity of being a "who" and not a "what." God Himself is a Trinity of divine Persons; the angels are persons, human beings are persons made in the image and likeness of God, made for personal communion with Him - not merely as instruments of His will, for His purposes, but to be participants with Him in His will, to have fellowship with Him in His purposes.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The reality of our human vocation into this personal and intimate communion - or fellowship - with the all-holy God, seems to me to be a foundational difference between the Catholic and protestant understandings of Christianity. I hear protestants deeply incensed, offended and scandalized by Catholic honor paid to human holiness - as in the saints, especially Mary the Mother of God. I am told we are dishonoring God, in honoring as we do the saints, and Mary especially - but as we see it, the saints and Mary have most beautifully risen to the calling in Christ that is God's will for us!

We are called to holiness, and to the perfection of holy charity (divine love). Why do we say that? Because we are called into personal communion with Him! And there is no communion with Him except in holiness! Protestants tell me that we are insulting God by recognizing human persons as having entered into the fullness of His will for us all - holiness, and the perfection of divine love. Protestants seem to diminish the call into Christ down to maybe one notch above being a "good citizen", but nothing close to the call into the holiness of beatitude in His glory, in heaven.

Your thoughts?
I do not see the word "instrument" as minimizing us to mere things without personality. Also, its used about people in the Bible, too:

"Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work."
2 Tim 2:21

I am not sure if I got your position or point clear from the rest. Maybe some specific example? But I would not call Marry the mother of God, because God does not have any beginning.

Even though we participate in the life God gave us, we are still His created instruments, separated from Him in our substance and the way of being.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I find that so many "doctrinal" differences (Catholic/protestant) have a beginning at a deeper level than usually is ever addressed. Maybe this question can illuminate something essential - a foundational belief upon which the Christian revelation can either stand true, or collapse under the weight of contradictions concerning God Himself.

Why do you exist? Why did God make you? What is your purpose in His Heart?

I'd be grateful to hear responses.

For the Glory of God, to Glorify God.

Isaiah 43:7
 
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MariaChristi

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I find that so many "doctrinal" differences (Catholic/protestant) have a beginning at a deeper level than usually is ever addressed. Maybe this question can illuminate something essential - a foundational belief upon which the Christian revelation can either stand true, or collapse under the weight of contradictions concerning God Himself.

Why do you exist? Why did God make you? What is your purpose in His Heart?

I'd be grateful to hear responses.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Good. But I don't think we differ using the word "just" as in "just society". "Just society" would mean a society where justice - or righteousness - prevails. A just man is a righteous man, one who lives the justice of God, returning to God all that is right and due to Him.

But the word which I used in my paraphrase would be troubling to me: "we are instruments of God"? - no, much more than "instruments", I must say. A person is more than an instrument of another, even of God. God created persons, having a dignity of being a "who" and not a "what." God Himself is a Trinity of divine Persons; the angels are persons, human beings are persons made in the image and likeness of God, made for personal communion with Him - not merely as instruments of His will, for His purposes, but to be participants with Him in His will, to have fellowship with Him in His purposes.

1Cor 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Cor 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1Jn 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

The reality of our human vocation into this personal and intimate communion - or fellowship - with the all-holy God, seems to me to be a foundational difference between the Catholic and protestant understandings of Christianity. I hear protestants deeply incensed, offended and scandalized by Catholic honor paid to human holiness - as in the saints, especially Mary the Mother of God. I am told we are dishonoring God, in honoring as we do the saints, and Mary especially - but as we see it, the saints and Mary have most beautifully risen to the calling in Christ that is God's will for us!

We are called to holiness, and to the perfection of holy charity (divine love). Why do we say that? Because we are called into personal communion with Him! And there is no communion with Him except in holiness! Protestants tell me that we are insulting God by recognizing human persons as having entered into the fullness of His will for us all - holiness, and the perfection of divine love. Protestants seem to diminish the call into Christ down to maybe one notch above being a "good citizen", but nothing close to the call into the holiness of beatitude in His glory, in heaven.

Your thoughts?

Matthew 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

Curious, but perhaps the issue lies in the perception that your giving the Glory that belongs to God in our creation and our potential to man instead of God.

Not saying Catholics do or don't, but I have perceived it to seem that way myself at times.

Everything we do should point others to God, for His Glory, not to self for our own. Even Jesus pointed not to self, but with Himself gave Glory to the Father.
 
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MariaChristi

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Dear Fide,

Yes, you have posed a very foundational question that is important for us all to ponder - I agree that it is a foundational belief. Growing up in a Catholic family, and attending a Catholic elementary school, I can remember learning early the Answers to foundational Questions:

Who Made you? God Made me.
Why did God Make you? He Made me to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

Since i was only in the First grade learning those Questions and Answers, I had only that beautiful gift of Supernatural Faith given in potency at my Baptism, but God was beginning a work in me, for which I will be forever grateful to Him. In the Catholic School I attended we had more advanced catechism questions and answers, and perhaps the word "create" was used later on, but I remember those first two questions and answers most vividly.

Thank you for your post. I hope it will encourage others to ponder the Truth of God more deeply. One Glorious Day, may He be our ALL in ALL in heaven!
 
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fide

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Even though we participate in the life God gave us, we are still His created instruments, separated from Him in our substance and the way of being.

Yes, this sentence expresses well, this Catholic-protestant separation spoken of in the opening post of the thread. Your focus on "separation from him", becomes a barrier to what this Catholic would call our very vocation in Christ: union with Him. The Gospel of John expresses in many ways, this very mysterious/supernatural/spiritual union in mutual in-dwelling - a human participation in the Union of the Trinity. This passage is most explicit in revealing this intimate human personal union within the divine love of the Trinity. Try to hear this prayer as a real, spiritually literal expression of our human vocation:
Jn 17:20 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

Most readers of this passage read it quickly enough that they do not hear it. It must be heard, to be believed. And it must be believed, as written, to bring the transformation within us that God wills.

Jn 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book.
31 But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
 
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fide

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Matthew 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven."

Curious, but perhaps the issue lies in the perception that your giving the Glory that belongs to God in our creation and our potential to man instead of God.

Not saying Catholics do or don't, but I have perceived it to seem that way myself at times.

Everything we do should point others to God, for His Glory, not to self for our own. Even Jesus pointed not to self, but with Himself gave Glory to the Father.

Maybe my post#27 (and quotes from Jn - esp. verse Jn 17:22) speak to your post here. ?
 
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trophy33

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Yes, this sentence expresses well, this Catholic-protestant separation spoken of in the opening post of the thread. Your focus on "separation from him", becomes a barrier
Its not a focus. Its only something one realizes when you really want to get into this topic.

to what this Catholic would call our very vocation in Christ: union with Him. The Gospel of John expresses in many ways, this very mysterious/supernatural/spiritual union in mutual in-dwelling - a human participation in the Union of the Trinity. This passage is most explicit in revealing this intimate human personal union within the divine love of the Trinity. Try to hear this prayer as a real, spiritually literal expression of our human vocation:
Jn 17:20 “I pray not only for them, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,
21 so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me.
22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may be one, as we are one,
23 I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me.

Most readers of this passage read it quickly enough that they do not hear it. It must be heard, to be believed. And it must be believed, as written, to bring the transformation within us that God wills.

Jn 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book.
31 But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.
I am not sure what you try to say. That you are one with God?
 
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fide

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I am not sure what you try to say. That you are one with God?

God does call us into oneness with Him, in the Holy Trinity. In heaven, all will be one with Him, in Him. There will be none apart from Him, all with be one with Him, in Glory. All that is unclean cannot enter His Kingdom.

Oneness with Him is achievable - through not perfectly - here on earth. Divinization - theosis - are terms to describe this unity with God found in the higher forms of prayer, infused or mystical contemplation. Here, the "image and likeness of God" was first put into human nature in Genesis (which begins to reveal God's intention for us, from the beginning). This occurs through the out-poured Holy Spirit into the souls of disciples, a fruit of the Cross.

Sadly, protestantism largely rejects this foundational understanding - thus blocks the intimacy of prayer which is intended by God to grow into this very oneness in His life and love.
 
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fide

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Dear Fide,

Yes, you have posed a very foundational question that is important for us all to ponder - I agree that it is a foundational belief. Growing up in a Catholic family, and attending a Catholic elementary school, I can remember learning early the Answers to foundational Questions:

Who Made you? God Made me.
Why did God Make you? He Made me to know Him, to love Him and to serve Him in this world, and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

Since i was only in the First grade learning those Questions and Answers, I had only that beautiful gift of Supernatural Faith given in potency at my Baptism, but God was beginning a work in me, for which I will be forever grateful to Him. In the Catholic School I attended we had more advanced catechism questions and answers, and perhaps the word "create" was used later on, but I remember those first two questions and answers most vividly.

Thank you for your post. I hope it will encourage others to ponder the Truth of God more deeply. One Glorious Day, may He be our ALL in ALL in heaven!

Yes, "back in the day" the Church did a beautiful work in catechesis, beginning with memory work (which did "stick" deeply in young and open minds!) and progressing into growing understanding of the mysteries of the Catholic Faith. I always appreciate hearing from many Catholic adults who were raised and taught (and taught well) the Faith as children, who have now a foundation that welcomes understanding more and more - now as adults - these and many other beautiful mysteries that God has shared with us. Many saints were made, by saints, in those days, thanks be to God.
 
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trophy33

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Sadly, protestantism largely rejects this foundational understanding - thus blocks the intimacy of prayer which is intended by God to grow into this very oneness in His life and love.
I think that the vast majority of catholics would not agree with this "foundational understanding", or, better said, mysticism, either.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Maybe my post#27 (and quotes from Jn - esp. verse Jn 17:22) speak to your post here. ?

Not really... because that verse is saying what I'm saying, all is to bring Glory to Him, to His name.

Our recreation in spades brings glory to Him: in that it brings Glory to us it's still only serving to bring Glory to Him and His name, not our own, because apart from Him and His Grace we are still nothing.

It is through God's people we see God, not man. If we bow at the feet of the created we have missed the point.
 
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SongOnTheWind

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I find that so many "doctrinal" differences (Catholic/protestant) have a beginning at a deeper level than usually is ever addressed. Maybe this question can illuminate something essential - a foundational belief upon which the Christian revelation can either stand true, or collapse under the weight of contradictions concerning God Himself.

Why do you exist? Why did God make you? What is your purpose in His Heart?

I'd be grateful to hear responses.
Well, why did God create any of us? Why did He create Adam and Eve?
 
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PloverWing

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Sadly, protestantism largely rejects this foundational understanding - thus blocks the intimacy of prayer which is intended by God to grow into this very oneness in His life and love.

I've seen intimate prayer in a variety of forms, across the spectrum of Christian communities. Yes, it's there in Athanasius and some of the other Eastern Fathers, and Athanasius' expression of unity with God is one that resonates with me. But I've also seen intimacy with God in the Western medieval mystics, in Quaker silence, in Evangelical praise music, in Pentecostal/Charismatic worship, and in other expressions as well. Intimacy with God takes more forms than this post suggests.
 
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fide

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Our recreation in spades brings glory to Him: in that it brings Glory to us it's still only serving to bring Glory to Him and His name, not our own, because apart from Him and His Grace we are still nothing.

You are presuming a separation of man from God - thus the glory is either His or ours.
I am speaking of a union in Him - thus the glory is ours together. Think of a Body (the Church) having a Head (Christ who is God). When one member rejoices, the whole Body and Head rejoice together. When one member suffers, the whole Body and Head suffers. When the Bridegroom (Christ) is glorified, so is His Bride the Church. His glory is hers, and her glory is His. The plan of God is accomplished in the gathering together in Him.
 
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fide

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I think that the vast majority of catholics would not agree with this "foundational understanding", or, better said, mysticism, either.

Sadly, I think you are right in that a majority of Catholics have not a foundational understanding of the teachings of the Catholic mystics, though several are canonized Saints, and are Doctors of the Church. As one example, St. John of the Cross. In his book the Ascent of Mt. Carmel, in which he describes very well the ascent of the soul on the mountain of prayer in and into God, the necessary part governed by the spirituality of infused contemplation, including the "Dark Nights" of the soul. In this part of the ascent, the soul becomes mostly passive, and God Himself mostly active. The soul must seek to cooperate with God, and not fight against Him or deny Him the sufferings that will come.

One paragraph of this mystical work is described here, in The Ascent (Bk 2, Stan 2, Ch IV#4):

4. It is this that was meant by Saint Paul when he said: Accedentem ad Deum oportet credere quod est. [225] Which signifies: "He that would journey towards union with God must needs believe in His Being." (Heb 11:6) As though he had said: He that would attain to being joined in a union with God must not walk by understanding, neither lean upon experience or feeling or imagination, but he must believe in His being, which is not perceptible to the understanding, neither to the desire nor to the imagination nor to any other sense, neither can it be known in this life at all.

Yea, in this life, the highest thing that can be felt and experienced concerning God is infinitely remote from God and from the pure possession of Him. Isaias and Saint Paul say: Nec oculus vidit, nec auris audivit, nec in cor hominis ascendit, qua praeparavit Deus iis, qui diligunt illum. [226] Which signifies: "That which God hath prepared for them that love Him neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart or thought of man." (1 Cor 2:9) So, however much the soul aspires to be perfectly united through grace in this life with that to which it will be united through glory in the next (which, as Saint Paul here says, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man in the flesh), it is clear that, in order perfectly to attain to union in this life through grace and through love, a soul must be in darkness with respect to all that can enter through the eye, and to all that can be received through the ear, and can be imagined with the fancy, and understood with the heart, which here signifies the soul. And thus a soul is greatly impeded from reaching this high estate of union with God when it clings to any understanding or feeling or imagination or appearance or will or manner of its own, or to any other act or to anything of its own, and cannot detach and strip itself of all these. For, as we say, the goal which it seeks lies beyond all this, yea, beyond even the highest thing that can be known or experienced; and thus a soul must pass beyond everything to unknowing.
Such teaching as above, from St. John of the Cross, is not "How to Pray 101". But it all about how to find union with God. And blessed indeed are those Catholics who find him in our Church, and listen and learn what he found by the lights of the Holy Spirit. As always, those who have ears, let them hear.
 
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trophy33

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Sadly, I think you are right in that a majority of Catholics have not a foundational understanding of the teachings of the Catholic mystics, though several are canonized Saints, and are Doctors of the Church. As one example, St. John of the Cross. In his book the Ascent of Mt. Carmel, in which he describes very well the ascent of the soul on the mountain of prayer in and into God, the necessary part governed by the spirituality of infused contemplation, including the "Dark Nights" of the soul. In this part of the ascent, the soul becomes mostly passive, and God Himself mostly active. The soul must seek to cooperate with God, and not fight against Him or deny Him the sufferings that will come.

One paragraph of this mystical work is described here, in The Ascent (Bk 2, Stan 2, Ch IV#4):

4. It is this that was meant by Saint Paul when he said: Accedentem ad Deum oportet credere quod est. [225] Which signifies: "He that would journey towards union with God must needs believe in His Being." (Heb 11:6) As though he had said: He that would attain to being joined in a union with God must not walk by understanding, neither lean upon experience or feeling or imagination, but he must believe in His being, which is not perceptible to the understanding, neither to the desire nor to the imagination nor to any other sense, neither can it be known in this life at all.

Yea, in this life, the highest thing that can be felt and experienced concerning God is infinitely remote from God and from the pure possession of Him. Isaias and Saint Paul say: Nec oculus vidit, nec auris audivit, nec in cor hominis ascendit, qua praeparavit Deus iis, qui diligunt illum. [226] Which signifies: "That which God hath prepared for them that love Him neither eye hath seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart or thought of man." (1 Cor 2:9) So, however much the soul aspires to be perfectly united through grace in this life with that to which it will be united through glory in the next (which, as Saint Paul here says, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath it entered into the heart of man in the flesh), it is clear that, in order perfectly to attain to union in this life through grace and through love, a soul must be in darkness with respect to all that can enter through the eye, and to all that can be received through the ear, and can be imagined with the fancy, and understood with the heart, which here signifies the soul. And thus a soul is greatly impeded from reaching this high estate of union with God when it clings to any understanding or feeling or imagination or appearance or will or manner of its own, or to any other act or to anything of its own, and cannot detach and strip itself of all these. For, as we say, the goal which it seeks lies beyond all this, yea, beyond even the highest thing that can be known or experienced; and thus a soul must pass beyond everything to unknowing.
Such teaching as above, from St. John of the Cross, is not "How to Pray 101". But it all about how to find union with God. And blessed indeed are those Catholics who find him in our Church, and listen and learn what he found by the lights of the Holy Spirit. As always, those who have ears, let them hear.

So, its not so much a difference between catholics and protestants, but rather a difference between mysticism and classical Christianity.
 
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fide

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So, its not so much a difference between catholics and protestants, but rather a difference between mysticism and classical Christianity.
I would say, from my experience, the difference is between what the Church believes and professes in her tradition, and what the protestants believe and profess in their tradition. Mysticism IS classical/traditional/faithful Christianity - of which many remain in ignorance, both Catholics (who are not taught enough of the Catholic Faith) and protestants (who do not have this truth in their tradition, whether they are taught well or not).
 
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