Joel's End Time Prophesies

eclipsenow · Jul 24, 2021

Paul made this distinction in 1 Thessalonians 5.
It's a distinction between the world and the Church. The Church will be able to anticipate the return of Christ even if they don't know the exact day, they'll still be expecting it, and will still be watching for it.

First, use a modern translation - ye's and the's are pompous and unnecessary. And there are better translations than the KJV - this is ONE area where I agree with my opponent Keras!

Second, being in 'darkness' is not understanding the gospel. This is about knowing Jesus, not knowing some silly timetable. Being 'ready' is about being found trusting in Jesus.

1 Thess 5:1–11
5:1–11 The Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.
1 Thess 5:1–11 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

Jesus commanded it.

Oh boy! Luke 21. It's a hard passage. But let's try it.

Luke 21:5 - 24 is about the end of THAT temple that the disciples could see with their very own eyes. Jesus predicts some of the persecution that will come their way, and uses the language of the Old Testament about changing regimes and calamities as this occurs when referring to signs in heaven. Then, controversially, Sydney Anglicans see 25-28 as everything being shaken up by the death of Jesus. There was an earthquake and the sun went dark and things changed in heaven as our sin was forgiven. Jesus rose again and was ushered into the right hand of the Ancient of Days - fulfilling Daniel as the conquering king is welcomed home. As 27 & 28 says "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Futurists demand that Jesus be coming back to earth - but why? Daniel says he was coming before the Ancient of Days! Futurists have got Jesus descending to earth when this passage could very well be describing the disciples seeing his death and resurrection and ascension - and the irony is it is the Son of Man going before the Father to receive glory after his death on the cross!
Another factor going for this interpretation is 32. It was going to happen in THAT generation. The temple was surrounded by armies and destroyed in AD70, the disciples were persecuted, there were earthquakes and darkness as Jesus died, and he won our redemption in that generation. It all fits.

Jamdoc · Jul 24, 2021

eclipsenow said:
First, use a modern translation - ye's and the's are pompous and unnecessary. And there are better translations than the KJV - this is ONE area where I agree with my opponent Keras!

Second, being in 'darkness' is not understanding the gospel. This is about knowing Jesus, not knowing some silly timetable. Being 'ready' is about being found trusting in Jesus.

1 Thess 5:1–11
5:1–11 The Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.
1 Thess 5:1–11 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

Oh boy! Luke 21. It's a hard passage. But let's try it.

Luke 21:5 - 24 is about the end of THAT temple that the disciples could see with their very own eyes. Jesus predicts some of the persecution that will come their way, and uses the language of the Old Testament about changing regimes and calamities as this occurs when referring to signs in heaven. Then, controversially, Sydney Anglicans see 25-28 as everything being shaken up by the death of Jesus. There was an earthquake and the sun went dark and things changed in heaven as our sin was forgiven. Jesus rose again and was ushered into the right hand of the Ancient of Days - fulfilling Daniel as the conquering king is welcomed home. As 27 & 28 says "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Futurists demand that Jesus be coming back to earth - but why? Daniel says he was coming before the Ancient of Days! Futurists have got Jesus descending to earth when this passage could very well be describing the disciples seeing his death and resurrection and ascension - and the irony is it is the Son of Man going before the Father to receive glory after his death on the cross!
Another factor going for this interpretation is 32. It was going to happen in THAT generation. The temple was surrounded by armies and destroyed in AD70, the disciples were persecuted, there were earthquakes and darkness as Jesus died, and he won our redemption in that generation. It all fits.

He's coming back to Earth, because He said He's coming back to Earth, and it's in prophecy.
You either believe what the bible says, or, you try to change what it says to match what you believe because you think you know better than it.
I'd rather be in the former group.

and the King James is a good bible translation. You're probably the first Christian I've ever heard decry it as not the Word of God.

eclipsenow · Jul 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
He's coming back to Earth, because ....

...because YOU WANT this to be about Judgment Day but it's just not! Please explain this passage being about:-

1. That temple
2. That generation

You either believe what the bible says,

...you have just tried and failed to "change what it says to match what you believe because you think you know better than it."

and the King James is a good bible translation. You're probably the first Christian I've ever heard decry it as not the Word of God.

Please don't put words in my mouth - I never said it didn't have the gospel and wasn't the word of God. The KJV was fantastic for its day and age and we owe it an enormous debt of gratitude. It changed history! But we have found tens of thousands of earlier, better manuscripts since then! I'd go with the NIV or ESV.

keras · Jul 24, 2021

eclipsenow said:
The whole point of quoting Noah is how utterly unknowable Jesus' return really is.

Matthew 2436 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

This belief is the big mistake, that so many make.
It is the Lord' Day of vengeance and wrath that comes as a thief. When He comes as the Son of Man and is not seen on that day.
That will be the unexpected day, a surprise, shocking the world.

At the Great Day of Almighty God; Revelation 16:14, the glorious Return of Jesus, after all that is prophesies before the Return has happened, He will come as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, seen be everyone on earth then. Revelation 1:7
That day can be known in advance, as coming exactly 1260 days after the Anti-Christ desecrates the Temple.

keras · Jul 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
It's not honoring these covenants to say "well, Abraham, your seed got wiped out completely but hey look here, here's a bunch of gentile strangers who I've designated as your spiritual descendants, that's good enough right?" No, of course not. God is going to uphold the covenants and promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and Moses, regarding their seed, and the land of Israel, will be kept, to people who are the genetic descendants of Abraham.

The descendants from Abraham are ubiquitous, they are everyone alive today. Even narrowing it down to the 12 sons of Jacob, still; over 50 generations, means at least a smidgen of Israelite genes is in all of us.

The Promises of God to the Patriarchs will be kept, by the faithful Christians, those who have the faith of Abraham only and they will come from every tribe, race nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10
Those who claim to be of the House of Judah and have usurped the name of Israel, face Judgment and punishment in the soon to happen Lord's Day of wrath. Ezekiel 21:1-8, Isaiah 6:11-13. Romans 9:27

Jamdoc · Jul 24, 2021

eclipsenow said:
...because YOU WANT this to be about Judgment Day but it's just not! Please explain this passage being about:-

No, it's about Jesus coming back, but it is near enough to being the same. The question in Matthew 24 was the signs of His coming and the end of the age.

1. That temple
2. That generation

Context is key for "this generation" the context being those who saw the fig tree begin to shoot forth green leaves. The Fig tree is an old testament symbol for Israel. Why'd He say it was a parable? Earlier He had withered a fig tree outside of Jerusalem because it bore no fruit. Israel wasn't bearing fruit, so in 70AD it was withered. When it lived again and began sprouting new leaves. in 1967 when Jerusalem was back in the control of Israel, that meant summer was near.
It is that generation, not the Generation in the first century, they would see the withering, not the last harvest. But the generation that saw Israel come back from diaspora and restablish Jerusalem.. it's that generation that will not pass, they will see the final harvest and the end of the age.

Really though the second coming is essential doctrine. If you don't believe in it.. that's troubling.
do you also deny bodily resurrection and a new earth?

...you have just tried and failed to "change what it says to match what you believe because you think you know better than it."

No, when you have disciples asking Jesus about His second coming and he answers with signs for it? It's pretty safe to say that the bible teaches that there is a second coming of Jesus to the earth Paul, Peter, and John still referred to it as a future event, so no it wasn't His resurrection after Crucifixion either.

Please don't put words in my mouth - I never said it didn't have the gospel and wasn't the word of God. The KJV was fantastic for its day and age and we owe it an enormous debt of gratitude. It changed history! But we have found tens of thousands of earlier, better manuscripts since then! I'd go with the NIV or ESV.

If those are the versions that have convinced you that Jesus is not coming back? I want nothing to do with them and will stick with the King James which clearly teaches that Jesus will return.
besides, while I'm not exclusive to KJV, it is common to be KJV only within Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches. My baptist church is KJV only. Not that they think there was special revelation given in 1611, just that it's a trustworthy translation and is one we can rely on.

eclipsenow · Jul 24, 2021

keras said:
This belief is the big mistake, that so many make.

As you always say, I just believe the words of the bible!

It is the Lord' Day of vengeance and wrath that comes as a thief. When He comes as the Son of Man and is not seen on that day.

Now who is adding words to the bible? He said he was seen here - and it is the fame of the execution of the Nazarene, and his subsequent ascension into heaven, that fulfils the Son of Man passage in Daniel. After all, was the Son of man LEAVING the father to go DOWN to earth in Daniel? Or coming home? Look it up! I'll wait.

DavidPT · Jul 24, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Oh boy! Luke 21. It's a hard passage. But let's try it.

Luke 21:5 - 24 is about the end of THAT temple that the disciples could see with their very own eyes. Jesus predicts some of the persecution that will come their way, and uses the language of the Old Testament about changing regimes and calamities as this occurs when referring to signs in heaven. Then, controversially, Sydney Anglicans see 25-28 as everything being shaken up by the death of Jesus. There was an earthquake and the sun went dark and things changed in heaven as our sin was forgiven. Jesus rose again and was ushered into the right hand of the Ancient of Days - fulfilling Daniel as the conquering king is welcomed home. As 27 & 28 says "At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Futurists demand that Jesus be coming back to earth - but why? Daniel says he was coming before the Ancient of Days! Futurists have got Jesus descending to earth when this passage could very well be describing the disciples seeing his death and resurrection and ascension - and the irony is it is the Son of Man going before the Father to receive glory after his death on the cross!
Another factor going for this interpretation is 32. It was going to happen in THAT generation. The temple was surrounded by armies and destroyed in AD70, the disciples were persecuted, there were earthquakes and darkness as Jesus died, and he won our redemption in that generation. It all fits.

Some of us reading the texts involved can see there is a vast difference between coming in the clouds in Daniel 7 and coming in the clouds in Luke 21. Others, such as you, obviously can't see that, and if I were to guess, still won't see it even after it being clearly shown to you. And not because you're unable to see it. But because you don't want to see it since it causes a problem with your interpretation. Apparently, at times, some ppl's interpretation of things are more important to them than the plain and clear truth of the matter.

Let's do some comparing.

Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Anyone reading this can see that He is not arriving in the clouds of heaven already possessing power and great glory. It doesn't say that anywhere in this part---behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven---that would be adding to the text to have that saying this instead---behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Not only would that be adding to the text, it would obviously be contradicting what follows.

and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom---now He is in possession of power and great glory, but only after having arrived first, then brought before the Father, and not when He is coming in the clouds of heaven instead.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

In this case it would be taking away from the text if we were to change this verse from---And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory---to the following in order to agree with the text in Daniel 7:13----And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud.

Anyone reading these accounts and actually comprehending what they are reading, can easily see that the perspective in Daniel 7 is heaven and that the perspective in Luke 21 is the earth, in regards to coming in the clouds.

The parallel to Luke 21:27 is Matthew 24:30.

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This says the tribes of the earth shall mourn when they see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. There are no tribes of the earth mourning up in heaven when they see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7, lol. There were no tribes of the earth mourning in Acts 1 when Jesus was seen leaving the planet and a cloud received Him, either.

Your interpretation involving what is in question, it's utterly preposterous. Maybe it's all these Commentaries you bring up over and over and over in a lot of your posts, that you appear to rely on for your understanding of things that has led you to end up with such preposterous conclusions as this? If your interpretation here is not a good example of false teaching, I don't know what is?

keras · Jul 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Context is key for "this generation" the context being those who saw the fig tree begin to shoot forth green leaves. The Fig tree is an old testament symbol for Israel. Why'd He say it was a parable? Earlier He had withered a fig tree outside of Jerusalem because it bore no fruit. Israel wasn't bearing fruit, so in 70AD it was withered. When it lived again and began sprouting new leaves. in 1967 when Jerusalem was back in the control of Israel, that meant summer was near.
It is that generation, not the Generation in the first century, they would see the withering, not the last harvest. But the generation that saw Israel come back from diaspora and restablish Jerusalem.. it's that generation that will not pass, they will see the final harvest and the end of the age.

A very good teaching. It is the truth, as we can plainly see from the events of our generation.
Note; that the Jewish State of Israel, bears no fruit; the fruit of the Spirit. That is because the Kingdom was taken from them and they are back in the holy Land in apostasy. Matthew 21:43

eclipsenow said:
Now who is adding words to the bible? He said he was seen here - and it is the fame of the execution of the Nazarene, and his subsequent ascension into heaven

Of course Jesus was seen after He was resurrected. He stayed on earth for 40 days and then was taken up to heaven. Acts 1:11
But what I was saying; how He will be hidden, refers to the Lord's Day of vengeance and wrath. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11 He does, in fact; stay in heaven as Psalms 11:4-6 says.
Only several years later, after His enemies are made His footstool, will he Return in glory, seen by all. Revelation 1:7

Douggg · Jul 24, 2021

keras said:
Note; that the Jewish State of Israel, bears no fruit; the fruit of the Spirit. That is because the Kingdom was taken from them and they are back in the holy Land in apostasy. Matthew 21:43

Yes, but the Jews over there in Israel will become Christians after their forthcoming bad experience thinking that the little horn person is their messiah.

And after them going through the great tribulation, when Jesus returns He will gather any of the house of Israel still in the nations back to Israel in Matthew 24:31. Fulfilling Deuteronomy 30:4-5, Ezekiel 39:28.

May 14, 1948 fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8. An undivided nation, fulfilling parts of Ezekiel 37.
1967, Jews regain Jerusalem, now Israel's capital.

keras · Jul 24, 2021

Douggg said:
Yes, but the Jews over there in Israel will become Christians after their forthcoming bad experience thinking that the little horn person is their messiah.

And after them going through the great tribulation, when Jesus returns He will gather any of the house of Israel still in the nations back to Israel in Matthew 24:31. Fulfilling Deuteronomy 30:4-5, Ezekiel 39:28.

May 14, 1948 fulfilling Isaiah 66:7-8. An undivided nation, fulfilling parts of Ezekiel 37.

I disagree entirely with all of your beliefs here.
It also conflicts with the many Bible prophesies that tell us about the virtual demise of the Jews and how only a remnant will join with their
Christian brethren. That remnant will be so ashamed, they will never speak out again. Ezekiel 16:63

I do not see anywhere in the Bible where anyone in power, will claim to be the Jewish Messiah. The 'little horn' will demand worship of himself. not of God.

Your error of a general redemption of the Jewish people, is a false teaching, an essential part of the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church theory. Neither will happen.

keras · Jul 24, 2021

JOEL 2:18-27 The Lord is with us – who can be against us?
Joel 2:18-17 Then the Lord showed His ardent love for His Land and had compassion for His people.
The Land is cleansed and His faithful Christian peoples gathered and settled in it. The new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5

He answered their appeal and said; I will send you plenty of food. You will no longer suffer the reproach of other nations.

Joel 2:20 I shall remove the Northern peril far from you and banish them into the desert. The vanguard will go into the Dead Sea and the rearguard will go into the Mediterranean Sea. The rotting smell of the dead army will rise up.
Very interesting! Ezekiel 38:14-16 says that a mighty army from the North [Gog and Magog] will attack My holy people, when they are settled and undisturbed. So that the nations may know Me and prove My holiness.

The Lord will wipe Gog and his horde out and it will take 7 years to finally clean up the mess.

Joel 2:21-27 Earth, fear not, the Lord has done great things.
Fear not, you beasts in the field, the grass will be green. The trees and vines will bear their fruit.
People of Zion rejoice, be glad in the Lord. He gives you rain and crops in due season. You will have food in plenty. I shall recompense you for the years of drought and famine. My people will never again be put to shame. You will know that I am with you, in the Land and that I am the Lord your God.

This passage is a clear sequence of events, as it starts with- Then the Lord.. and then verse 28 starts- After this.....

Both the verses in Joel 2:27 and Ezekiel 38:16, also Jeremiah 50:4-5 Hosea 14:7, Jeremiah 29:13-14, Ezekiel 36:23, Ezekiel 20:42, show that Jesus is not actually present in the Land, as He will be during the Millennium. His glorious Return then, will prove His presence and glory to all the peoples of the earth, so these events are before then. God will be present with His faithful Christian peoples, in the same way as He was with ancient Israel.

eclipsenow · Jul 24, 2021

DavidPT said:
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Exactly - he's going before the Father.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Exactly! He reigns in eschatological tension - the now and not yet reign of Christ through the church. We are already seated in heaven (Ephesians), already have an inheritance that will never spoil, already are God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved. Yet we still struggle with sin and do not reign over the earth as we want. What gives? It's eschatological tension.

Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

They are wandering around the temple, the very focus of the Old Testament, and soon Jesus is going to be brutally murdered. They are asking about THAT temple - and when it will be destroyed - and Jesus says it will all happen THAT generation. How do you explain these facts?

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

This says the tribes of the earth shall mourn when they see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. There are no tribes of the earth mourning up in heaven when they see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven in Daniel 7, lol. There were no tribes of the earth mourning in Acts 1 when Jesus was seen leaving the planet and a cloud received Him, either.

I see the logic of what you are saying - but Matthew seems to be discussing both "these things" (the temple and when it will be destroyed in AD70) and "that day".

Basically both passages are clear that there is SOMETHING that is going to happen in that generation. And no, you cannot interpret it away as 'race' or something else. It means those people alive then were going to see something!

Care to explain? THAT temple that they were looking at, and THAT generation. Thanks.

Jamdoc · Jul 24, 2021

and woosh.. over someone's head the parable of the fig tree goes, again.

Douggg · Jul 24, 2021

keras said:
It also conflicts with the many Bible prophesies that tell us about the virtual demise of the Jews and how only a remnant will join with their
Christian brethren. That remnant will be so ashamed, they will never speak out again. Ezekiel 16:63

First things first.

Israel over there since 1948 is an undivided nation, but your interpretation of Ezekiel 37 is that it was two divided Christian nations? Was the joining of the two nations, north and south, lands held by the entire 12 tribes, fulfilled or not?

Jamdoc · Jul 24, 2021

I have yet to see a preterist or historicist of any flavor who grasped the parable of the fig tree even though Jesus specifically commanded people to learn it.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree

That's not a suggestion.

They all jump to "this generation" and take the verse out of context instead of applying it to the context in which Jesus was speaking, that identifies WHICH generation it is; the generation that sees the fig tree bring forth new leaves.

Jamdoc · Jul 24, 2021

Douggg said:
First things first.

Israel over there since 1948 is an undivided nation, but your interpretation of Ezekiel 37 is that it was two divided Christian nations? Was the joining of the two nations, north and south, lands held by the entire 12 tribes, fulfilled or not?

That's the kind of mess you get into when you drink the replacement theology kool aid.

keras · Jul 24, 2021

Douggg said:
First things first.

Israel over there since 1948 is an undivided nation, but your interpretation of Ezekiel 37 is that it was two divided Christian nations? Was the joining of the two nations, north and south, lands held by the entire 12 tribes, fulfilled or not?

Ezekiel 37 remains to be fulfilled. Proved by how the Blessings promised have not yet happened.
The Jews represent the House of Judah. They acknowledge this truth.
The House of Israel is still scattered among the nations. Only God knows who and where they all are. Amos 9:9

You say the State of Israel is an undivided nation. What a joke! The Jews have more factions in their religious and social life than anybody.
Then there are the Bai-hai's, the Buddists, the Spiritualists, plus; and 20% of the population are Muslim.

We await the time when Judah, Israel and the faithful Gentiles, will join and live together, at last; in all of the holy Land.

eclipsenow · Jul 24, 2021

Jamdoc said:
and woosh.. over someone's head the parable of the fig tree goes, again.

The parable of the fig tree is about Jesus standing there saying to THAT generation "I am here! Repent! The Romans utterly burning GOD's TEMPLE - THIS TEMPLE - to the ground - the end of sacrifice - it's all to do with ME!" Basically if that's your claim to this being a futurist passage then WHOOOSH it's really flown over your head.

I answered your question but CAN you answer mine or are you deliberately avoiding it?

More context: What was John the Baptist's message? "Repent for the kingdom of God is near."
What was Jesus message? "Repent for the kingdom of God is near."
What is the kingdom of God? The church universal, in eschatological tension - the now reigning in Christ - but not yet fully reigning over the world - and sometimes even martyred. That church. That kingdom.

Basically both passages are clear that there is SOMETHING that is going to happen in that generation. And no, you cannot interpret it away as 'race' or something else. Generation means those people alive then were going to see something!

THAT temple was going to be destroyed. The one the disciples were pointing at!

THESE THINGS were going to happen in THAT GENERATION - the one alive at Jesus time.

They COULD predict when the temple was going to be destroyed - because the armies would surround it.

It SHOULD be obvious to them, because the Son of Man was about to be murdered, rise again, and go before the Father in clouds of glory - fulfilling the law, the OT sacrificial system, and making him obviously the King reigning over the eternal Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God was near. Then it bursts forth on the world after Pentecost!

NOW, with this context in mind - let's check it out.

LUKE 21
29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

MATTHEW 24
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Then in Acts 2 in the Pentecost sermon, Peter quotes Joel saying all these things happened when Jesus was murdered. Repent for the Lord could return at any moment.

Jamdoc · Jul 24, 2021

eclipsenow said:
The parable of the fig tree is about Jesus standing there saying to THAT generation "I am here! Repent! The Romans utterly burning GOD's TEMPLE - THIS TEMPLE - to the ground - the end of sacrifice - it's all to do with ME!" Basically if that's your claim to this being a futurist passage then WHOOOSH it's really flown over your head.

I answered your question but CAN you answer mine or are you deliberately avoiding it?

More context: What was John the Baptist's message? "Repent for the kingdom of God is near."
What was Jesus message? "Repent for the kingdom of God is near."
What is the kingdom of God? The church universal, in eschatological tension - the now reigning in Christ - but not yet fully reigning over the world - and sometimes even martyred. That church. That kingdom.

Basically both passages are clear that there is SOMETHING that is going to happen in that generation. And no, you cannot interpret it away as 'race' or something else. Generation means those people alive then were going to see something!

THAT temple was going to be destroyed. The one the disciples were pointing at!

THESE THINGS were going to happen in THAT GENERATION - the one alive at Jesus time.

They COULD predict when the temple was going to be destroyed - because the armies would surround it.

It SHOULD be obvious to them, because the Son of Man was about to be murdered, rise again, and go before the Father in clouds of glory - fulfilling the law, the OT sacrificial system, and making him obviously the King reigning over the eternal Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God was near. Then it bursts forth on the world after Pentecost!

NOW, with this context in mind - let's check it out.

LUKE 21
29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

MATTHEW 24
32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Then in Acts 2 in the Pentecost sermon, Peter quotes Joel saying all these things happened when Jesus was murdered. Repent for the Lord could return at any moment.

70AD was the withering of the fig tree, not the fig tree bringing forth new leaves.
70AD ended with the destruction of the temple, not the restoration of all things.
70AD ended with the scattering of Israel, not the gathering of the elect.

The Olivet discourse was not about 70AD.
Period.

Joel's End Time Prophesies

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Watching and Praying Always

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Well-Known Member

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Watching and Praying Always

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Watching and Praying Always

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Watching and Praying Always

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