The blessing and the curse of personal interpretation of scripture

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Hi everyone, new poster here so please be kind!

I have struggled for a long time with the balance between personal interpretation of scripture, and dependence on people in positions of authority (who may have greater knowledge).

This is an even more acute issue in the current age, where the authority of traditional news sources is being challenged, and people are being encouraged to make up their own minds.

How do we, as a community of Christians, find that balance between personal engagement with scripture, and relying on the people who understand it best to inform us?

It's almost impossible to look at a Greek dictionary and get the correct meaning of the Bible, unless you are well trained in Greek. A good way to get a wider view of the Bible is using a couple of different translations. We get a better understanding of scripture doing this, it's easy and everyone can do it.

You can compare lots of different translations using Bible hub parallell.

Bible Hub: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages

About doing your own translations from Greek (5 min):

 
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fhansen

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But "some" supporters of almost any Christian doctrine you can name--Marian devotions, Prophesy, Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Good works, Apostolic Succession. etc.--can be accused of doing what you are saying about "some Sola Scriptura adherents."

That makes wrongdoing or ignorance by "some" people be your reason for condemning the principle of Sola Scriptura itself rather than the more sensible conclusion that we should fault them instead.
I don't think they represent a minority, however, or are necessarily being unreasonable, because the doctrine of Sola Scriptura implies that by using Scripture as the rule of faith, we can adequately ascertain the truths of that faith. The doctrine really has no value otherwise.
 
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Albion

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I don't think they represent a minority, however, or are necessarily being unreasonable, because the doctrine of Sola Scriptura implies that by using Scripture as the rule of faith, we can adequately ascertain the truths of that faith. The doctrine really has no value otherwise.

:destroyed:

All these threads, and all the explanations from every conceivable angle...and the meaning of Sola Scriptura is still a mystery to these folks.

Or is it that they just prefer to hold to and/or publish the old fiction?
 
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pescador

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The issue is you're the one making a claim, stating that this structure existed. While I could parse the record with you to show why it's most likely that Rome was governed by a council, it's clear from this conversation that such an effort would be wasted.


Hierarchal authority, as in church governance. None of the apostles demanded their authority be respected based on position, they based their claims on Scripture and the few times Paul needed to assert his apostleship he referenced his trials. Totally different from popes and cardinals who live in palaces and operate one of, if not the richest non-state human corporations. The entire structure is about trying to assert authority over individuals and not about service.


Nice putting words in my mouth, I deny that Jesus set up a human governmental corporation for such transmission. I already told you His provision is given in John, not Matthew. The structures of the Catholic church are nothing more than human corporations that developed over time, in response to various controversies. And its clear that Jesus set up no such line of transmission since even Catholics admit there have been multiple selection methods for new popes. If Jesus set up the transmission, why is the mechanism for selection a matter of human opinions?

Great post!
 
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pescador

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Some Sola Scriptura adherents respond as if, going by the bible alone, they should have that kind of certainty, virtually implying infallibility, in fact, while not acknowledging it.

So we should all follow the dictates of the "infallible" Pope(s), correct? The Catholic church, throughout its history, has deviated so far from the Bible that it is impossible to compare the two. Inquisition anyone?

The Bible stands alone as God's revealed truth, not the teachings of fallible men. Sola scriptura!
 
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fhansen

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and between Catholic and Catholic.
Yes, but only in the sense that a Lutheran might disagree with another Lutheran, while either or both might be also disagreeing with Lutheranism. Catholicism, and to a lesser extant Lutheranism, doesn't rely solely on Scripture for its teachings, in any case, while both insisting that their teachings are supported by Scripture as well.
 
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Albion

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Yes, but only in the sense that a Lutheran might disagree with another Lutheran, while either or both might be also disagreeing with Lutheranism. Catholicism, and to a lesser extant Lutheranism, doesn't rely solely on Scripture for its teachings, in any case, while both insisting that their teachings are supported by Scripture as well.
What I was referring to were the differences existing between different Catholic communions, all of which say that they follow the same procedures (aside from Papal Infallibility) when determining essential doctrine. That would include Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Old Catholic, SSPV, and a few more.
 
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fhansen

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The Bible stands alone as God's revealed truth, not the teachings of fallible men. Sola scriptura!
The problem is that whoever is interpreting Scripture and maintaining that they're understanding is correct becomes his/her own infallible pope. Plausible disagreements between sincere interpreters, even scholars, help demonstrate that man needs more than Scripture alone- in order to understand Scripture- and know God's will.
 
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Albion

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The problem is that whoever is interpreting Scripture and maintaining that they're understanding is correct becomes his/her own infallible pope.
Okay, but we've been discussing Sola Scriptura. Just about everyone, and that includes all who are contributing to this thread at present, know that individual Christians, whatever their denominational affiliation, can make mistakes when it comes to their own understanding of doctrine or that upon which their churches base their doctrinal positions. That is not excused! And it isn't at issue, anyway! It's just not the topic.

Plausible disagreements between sincere interpreters, even scholars, help demonstrate that man needs more than Scripture alone- in order to understand Scripture- and know God's will.

No, it doesn't. The same problem you are focused on with Scripture applies no less (and probably more) to all the other things that your church and the other Catholic churches base their doctrines upon. So the problem isn't solved by moving away from Scripture and following some other lead.
 
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Root of Jesse

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The issue is you're the one making a claim, stating that this structure existed. While I could parse the record with you to show why it's most likely that Rome was governed by a council, it's clear from this conversation that such an effort would be wasted.
I believe you think I'm a cradle Catholic, but I'm not. I was, and always am, open to proof that what the Catholic Church claims and taught me is wrong. So I kind of think you can't do it. I have shown why we believe what we believe, and all you say is "I don't see it that way." We know you don't, that's why you're Protestant.
Hierarchal authority, as in church governance. None of the apostles demanded their authority be respected based on position, they based their claims on Scripture and the few times Paul needed to assert his apostleship he referenced his trials. Totally different from popes and cardinals who live in palaces and operate one of, if not the richest non-state human corporations. The entire structure is about trying to assert authority over individuals and not about service.
What Scripture did the apostles base their claims on? Most of the Epistles were written before the Gospels, and it's the Gospels that proclaim the hierarchy of the Church. The apostles had the authority, passed it on to their disciples. Plain and simple. Paul, in turn, said his authority was from Christ, as did the other apostles, so I don't know what you're saying.
Nice putting words in my mouth, I deny that Jesus set up a human governmental corporation for such transmission.
Right. That's what I said.
I already told you His provision is given in John, not Matthew. The structures of the Catholic church are nothing more than human corporations that developed over time, in response to various controversies. And its clear that Jesus set up no such line of transmission since even Catholics admit there have been multiple selection methods for new popes. If Jesus set up the transmission, why is the mechanism for selection a matter of human opinions?
We take the gospels all together. They do not teach different things. When you say 'the structures of the Catholic Church, maybe you're talking about the political side, and while I do pay attention to the civics of the Catholic Church, I'm Catholic because of the Truth Jesus taught, which is Catholic. It is equally as clear to me that Jesus did set up the line of transmission, because it's the first thing the apostles did after Judas committed suicide, and it's clear that Paul appointed Timothy and Titus to succeed him. And it's not a matter of human opinions, actually. Matthias was chosen by the Holy Spirit. Which is how the Cardinals choose a pope and how the pope chooses bishops.
 
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Root of Jesse

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On the one hand, we would be inclined to say "No." That's because, when you really get down to it, we don't know anything for sure. We simply trust what we believe because we have scrutinized it and decided to believe it on the basis of the evidence. It could be that the whole universe is a mirage and doesn't exist at all, if we wanted to push this point. But we don't do that and we believe based on what we consider to be compelling.

On the other hand, "Yes" because the word of God--if there is a God--cannot be beat! (to put it crudely but as simply as possible)

What is more persuasive than God's own message to mankind?? Huh?

Well, nothing. And nothing else is even its equal. That's so obvious, and there is hardly any Christian church that denies that the Bible IS, in fact, divine revelation.
What many don't find so obvious is that God continues to speak to us through men. How do we know that those men speak Truth? By comparing it to what the historical record says, and with Scripture. All three line up, and we have understanding.
 
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Root of Jesse

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But "some" supporters of almost any Christian doctrine you can name--Marian devotions, Prophesy, Gifts of the Holy Spirit, Good works, Apostolic Succession. etc.--can be accused of doing what you are saying about "some Sola Scriptura adherents."

That makes wrongdoing or ignorance by "some" people be your reason for condemning the principle of Sola Scriptura itself rather than the more sensible conclusion that we should fault them instead.

:doh:
And if you take them by themselves at face value, you might believe this. But if you compare what they do or say with the rest of the Church, the Apostolic Church, you see the Truth, or not, of what they do. We can agree that there have been clerics and others who take things to extremes, and fly off the rails. Tetzel was one, so was Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Hus and many others, some Catholic. The point, though, is "What does the Church teach?" Not What do individuals preach?
 
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Root of Jesse

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and between Catholic and Catholic.


Thanks.
That's true. But between Catholic and the faith? If there's a difference, that's where we have a problem. Such as that discussion about female ordination...
 
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Fervent

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I believe you think I'm a cradle Catholic, but I'm not. I was, and always am, open to proof that what the Catholic Church claims and taught me is wrong. So I kind of think you can't do it. I have shown why we believe what we believe, and all you say is "I don't see it that way." We know you don't, that's why you're Protestant.
Whether you're a cradle catholic or not doesn't matter, the question is whether the Catholic claims actually trace back to the original church in Rome. I've given reasons in this very thread that show they don't, as if there was going to be an authoritative claim of transmission one of the various crises the early church faced would have been the place to invoke it. But they didn't, not against the Montanists, not against the Marcionites, not against the Donatists, not against the Arians. The claim doesn't seem to have arisen and solidified until the 4th century into the mid 5th.

What Scripture did the apostles base their claims on? Most of the Epistles were written before the Gospels, and it's the Gospels that proclaim the hierarchy of the Church. The apostles had the authority, passed it on to their disciples. Plain and simple. Paul, in turn, said his authority was from Christ, as did the other apostles, so I don't know what you're saying.Right. That's what I said.
Paul, in all of his letters, relies heavily on arguments from the Tanakh. He doesn't insist that because he is who he is his claim should be accepted but engages in arguments from the text to show that his position is correct. Peter, Jude, James, and John also based their arguments in Torah/Prophets/Writings making direct allusions and arguments from them. Their disposition was not one of demanding based on who they were or an office they occupied.

We take the gospels all together. They do not teach different things. When you say 'the structures of the Catholic Church, maybe you're talking about the political side, and while I do pay attention to the civics of the Catholic Church, I'm Catholic because of the Truth Jesus taught, which is Catholic. It is equally as clear to me that Jesus did set up the line of transmission, because it's the first thing the apostles did after Judas committed suicide, and it's clear that Paul appointed Timothy and Titus to succeed him. And it's not a matter of human opinions, actually. Matthias was chosen by the Holy Spirit. Which is how the Cardinals choose a pope and how the pope chooses bishops.
No, but your argument rests on stripping a single passage from Matthew without context and insisting that it must mean what you say it means. Jesus states how His church is to carry on, who the authoritative teacher is to be, in John. The context of Matthew doesn't make sense for Jesus to be giving marching orders, in fact the context implies that Jesus is speaking of Peter's confession not Peter himself. Your discussion of Matthias is spurious at best, especially when we have Scripture like 1 Corinthians where Paul is chastising the members of that congregation for dividing the church based on the teachings of men and affirming that there is one head of the church, all others being members of a body. Yet you serve in a church headed by the Pope.
 
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Albion

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That's true. But between Catholic and the faith?

Of course that's true also. Catholics are fiercely loyal to their church, but when it comes to doctrine, they're all over the place, just as is the case in many other denominations. And I am not referring only to what might be called policies, like women's ordination or birth control.

This has been documented many times.
 
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:destroyed:

All these threads, and all the explanations from every conceivable angle...and the meaning of Sola Scriptura is still a mystery to these folks.

Or is it that they just prefer to hold to and/or publish the old fiction?
Problem is, most denominations don't have the same definition of Sola Scriptura. Sorta like nobody seems to know what an assault rifle is.
 
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Root of Jesse

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So we should all follow the dictates of the "infallible" Pope(s), correct? The Catholic church, throughout its history, has deviated so far from the Bible that it is impossible to compare the two. Inquisition anyone?
What, about the Inquisition, deviates from the Bible?
The Bible stands alone as God's revealed truth, not the teachings of fallible men. Sola scriptura!
Who taught you that?
 
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fhansen

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All these threads, and all the explanations from every conceivable angle...and the meaning of Sola Scriptura is still a mystery to these folks.
All amounts to the same thing at the end of the day. One will use Scripture as the rule of faith and affirm the ancient belief of baptismal regeneration while another will use the same Scripture to deny it, both arguments being plausible. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, IOW, is unworkable in any practical sense.
 
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All amounts to the same thing at the end of the day. One will use Scripture as the rule of faith and affirm the ancient belief of baptismal regeneration while another will use the same Scripture to deny it, both arguments being plausible. The doctrine of Sola Scriptura, IOW, is unworkable in any practical sense.
If the premise is accepted that the theology surrounding baptism that came from the 3rd-4th century is authoritative, then sure. But there's no reason to accept the speculations of those men as an authority, especially as many of them veered into claiming that the water itself was salvific including Augustine. Simply because old debates remain unresolved does not mean Scripture is not sufficient, especially as anyone seeking to dispose of the practice of baptism is clearly against it regardless of the surrounding theology.
 
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Whether you're a cradle catholic or not doesn't matter, the question is whether the Catholic claims actually trace back to the original church in Rome.
The original Church at Rome doesn't really mean much, because Peter didn't spend the majority of his life after Pentecost in Rome. That took a while. What matters is what the early Church taught. Whether Jesus gave the apostles the authority to teach, and whether he made Peter the head of the apostles, which, we believe, he did.
Matthew 28 "Go out into all the world teaching all that I have taught you." "Whoever hears you hears me." "Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
I've given reasons in this very thread that show they don't, as if there was going to be an authoritative claim of transmission one of the various crises the early church faced would have been the place to invoke it. But they didn't, not against the Montanists, not against the Marcionites, not against the Donatists, not against the Arians. The claim doesn't seem to have arisen and solidified until the 4th century into the mid 5th.
The Montanists, Marcionites, Donatists and Arians just show you exactly how the Bible cannot be the sole rule of faith. And yet the Fathers of the Church wrote against all those heresies, and labeled them heresies. Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Iranaeus of Lyon, just to name a few.
Paul, in all of his letters, relies heavily on arguments from the Tanakh. He doesn't insist that because he is who he is his claim should be accepted but engages in arguments from the text to show that his position is correct.
Paul was writing primarily to the Jews he encountered in the various places, and used their scriptures to show his truth. Paul told the Corinthians in the first letter chapter 11 "If anyone has another practice, know that we have no other practice nor do the churches of God." Paul also said "The traditions I learned from the Lord I hand on to you."
Peter, Jude, James, and John also based their arguments in Torah/Prophets/Writings making direct allusions and arguments from them. Their disposition was not one of demanding based on who they were or an office they occupied.
Why? Because there were no NT writings yet, or very few?
No, but your argument rests on stripping a single passage from Matthew without context and insisting that it must mean what you say it means. Jesus states how His church is to carry on, who the authoritative teacher is to be, in John. The context of Matthew doesn't make sense for Jesus to be giving marching orders, in fact the context implies that Jesus is speaking of Peter's confession not Peter himself. Your discussion of Matthias is spurious at best, especially when we have Scripture like 1 Corinthians where Paul is chastising the members of that congregation for dividing the church based on the teachings of men and affirming that there is one head of the church, all others being members of a body. Yet you serve in a church headed by the Pope.
It actually makes perfect sense, in context. Jesus took them to Caesarea Philippi, completely out of the region, on a road trip miles from the Sea of Galilee. A retreat. He took them to the place where the Jordan River begins, where a monument to the god Pan was enshrined. And he asked them the question "Who do you say that I am?" Peter answered him, and was told that the Holy Spirit had guided him to that answer, and that the Holy Spirit would guide him in leading the Church after Jesus was gone. Of course, Peter was human and a sinner, Jesus knew that. He knew Peter would deny him. And afterward, Jesus asked Peter 3 times if Peter loved Him, and allowed Peter's forgiveness. And directed him to feed His sheep. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom, making him His Minister after he was gone. Promised him the Holy Spirit to guide him. So it's a lot more than a single passage from Matthew...
 
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