Women in Leadership Positions in the Church

Jay Sea said:

Today with our understanding of gender spectrum and in a sense how imperfect this world is. In all inclusive love, in imitation of G-d's love, YES.
In Love
Jay Sea

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Thank you for your forthright reply to this contentious issue.

HIM said:

God’s word does not work for ya? Okay take care.

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So, were you hoping to end the discussion by playing the God-card? As if your cited opinion was the end of the story?

Here's a whole lot of chapter and verse for you. (and everyone else here)

Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | The Role of Women in Ministry

The Narrow Way said:

Perhaps if there were more women (consecrated, spiritual women) in leadership positions in the Church, there would be fewer sex scandals in the Church. I'm not a women's libber, I don't think women should be in active combat in the military or be firemen or policemen...or security at prisons...but I really don't see what makes a man a better Pastor, especially these days?

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Because of the mistakes of a few men, and the rampant political activism against men in general, men are being pushed out of leadership everywhere. When was the last time you saw a male doctor?

By the time they finish what they are up to, men will be beasts of burden like oxen pulling carts full of women around.

Saint Steven said:

So, were you hoping to end the discussion by playing the God-card? As if your cited opinion was the end of the story?

Here's a whole lot of chapter and verse for you. (and everyone else here)

Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | The Role of Women in Ministry

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God opinion through Paul is not good enough for ya? Got it. Take care.

Saint Steven said:

Because of the mistakes of a few men, and the rampant political activism against men in general, men are being pushed out of leadership everywhere.

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And yet most governments, corporate boards, academic governance bodies, church governance bodies, and so on, are still male dominated...

Saint Steven said:

When was the last time you saw a male doctor?

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That's a very strange example. Are doctors the barometer of leadership, now?

For what it's worth, though, the last time I saw a male doctor was... the last time I saw a doctor. And my upcoming appointment is with a new, male doctor.

But the different experiences of men and women GPs is worth reflecting on, for example, as highlighted here: What’s behind the gender pay gap in general practice?

Saint Steven said:

By the time they finish what they are up to, men will be beasts of burden like oxen pulling carts full of women around.

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I'm working towards a world where everyone - men and women - has the opportunity to live up to their full potential. This isn't a zero-sum game where one group gaining opportunities means someone else has to miss out. Together we can create more opportunity for all.

HIM said:

God opinion through Paul is not good enough for ya? Got it. Take care.

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What you cited was only the tip of the iceberg. What else did the Apostle say? Read the whitepaper to learn what else he said. Very enlightening. Unless you hate women, then I can't help you.

Saint Steven said: ↑
So, were you hoping to end the discussion by playing the God-card? As if your cited opinion was the end of the story?

Here's a whole lot of chapter and verse for you. (and everyone else here)

Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | The Role of Women in Ministry

Paidiske said:

And yet most governments, corporate boards, academic governance bodies, church governance bodies, and so on, are still male dominated...

That's a very strange example. Are doctors the barometer of leadership, now?

For what it's worth, though, the last time I saw a male doctor was... the last time I saw a doctor. And my upcoming appointment is with a new, male doctor.

But the different experiences of men and women GPs is worth reflecting on, for example, as highlighted here: What’s behind the gender pay gap in general practice?

I'm working towards a world where everyone - men and women - has the opportunity to live up to their full potential. This isn't a zero-sum game where one group gaining opportunities means someone else has to miss out. Together we can create more opportunity for all.

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I also found it very peculiar that the medical profession was singled out as being dominated by women. All of my doctors have been male and it is still a largely male profession. There is a very real gender gap heavily slanted toward the male species. The gap is slowly diminishing, but it is still there.

There is an interesting trend IMO toward ethnic diversity in the various professions, with large gains by Indian-born professionals. In China (that great Socialist nation where all are (in theory) equal) the medical profession is almost exclusively male and Chinese. Chinese doctors earn about the same as bus drivers and it is not at all a socially attractive profession. Chinese doctors have great difficulty in finding wives who are willing to live with large student debt on a meager income.

public hermit said:

Yeah, that's one spot where Paul's thinking seems muddled. How was Adam not deceived? Or, did he eat knowing full well he shouldn't? If so, that is worse!

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Yes, exactly.
Eve was deceived; Adam wilfully disobeyed.

zippy2006 said:

The difficulty is that Paul says the same thing in his letter to the Corinthians, and there he explicitly affirms that it is the revealed word of the Lord rather than a custom of the day or his own personal opinion. Those who reject this teaching reject the inerrancy of Scripture

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No, we don't.
In 1 Corinthians 14:35 Paul says, "if they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home".
That strongly suggests that women DID want to enquire about things that were said and taught, and they were asking the questions whenever they occurred to them. Maybe they were asking the man nearest to them, which would have been considered rather forward then, and is not doubt why Paul said they should ask their OWN husbands at home. This calling out, or discussion, would not only have interrupted worship but upset the proper procedure which would have been for a woman to ask her husband and learn from him.
I can easily imagine that Paul may have asked the Lord for guidance in how to solve this particular problem - and then wrote to other churches with the solution. That does not mean that he forbade women from speaking in church since in 1 Corinthians 11 he gave instructions about how they should pray and prophesy.

And it certainly does not mean "the Lord has commanded that no women, anywhere, in any culture can ever speak during worship."

zippy2006 said:

As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches. For they are not permitted to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says. If there is anything they desire to know, let them ask their husbands at home. For it is shameful for a woman to speak in church. What! Did the word of God originate with you, or are you the only ones it has reached?

If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you is a command of the Lord. If any one does not recognize this, he is not recognized.​

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And also, he says they should keep quiet as the law says. What law? We are not under law.

CatsRule2020 said:

I don't think that it is whether a woman can be as good of a Pastor as a man. I think the New Testament writers were trying to make the point that the male and female nature's have differences that make the male nature more suited to be a Pastor.

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If they were around today they would need to take it up with the Lord, who calls women to be ordained.

Biblical Examples of Women in Ministry

Old Testament history includes accounts of strong female leadership in many roles. The following are striking examples: Miriam was a prophet to Israel during the Exodus, alongside her brothers Moses and Aaron (Exodus 15:20). Deborah, both a prophet and a judge, directed Barak to lead the army of Israel into successful combat against Israel’s oppressors (Judges 4 to 5). Huldah, also a prophet, authenticated the scroll of the Law found in the temple and helped spark religious reform in the days of Josiah (2 Kings 22:14–20; 2 Chronicles 34:22–28).

The New Testament also shows that women filled important ministry roles in the Early Church. Tabitha (Dorcas) initiated an effective benevolence ministry (Acts 9:36). Philip’s four unmarried daughters were recognized prophets (Acts 21:8,9). Paul singled out two women, Euodia and Syntyche, as “women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers” (Philippians 4:2,3). Priscilla was another of Paul’s exemplary “fellow workers in Christ Jesus” (Romans 16:3,4). In Romans 16, Paul greets numerous ministry colleagues, a large number of them women. In these greetings, the word Paul uses to speak of the work (kopiao), or labor, of Mary, Tryphena, Tryphosa, and Persis (Romans 16:6,12) is one he uses extensively for the labor of ministry (1 Corinthians 16:16; 1 Thessalonians 5:12; 1 Timothy 5:17).

Phoebe, a leader in the church at Cenchrea, was highly commended to the church at Rome by Paul (Romans 16:1,2). Unfortunately, translation biases have often obscured Phoebe’s position of leadership, calling her a “servant” (NIV, NASB, ESV). Yet Phoebe was diakonos of the church at Cenchrea. Paul regularly used this term for a minister or leader of a congregation and applied it specifically to Jesus Christ, Tychicus, Epaphras, Timothy, and to his own ministry. Depending on the context, diakonos is usually translated “deacon” or “minister.” Though some translators have chosen the word deaconess (e.g., RSV, because Phoebe was female), the Greek diakonos is a masculine noun. Therefore, it seems likely that diakonos was the designation for an official leadership position in the Early Church and the proper translation for Phoebe’s role is “deacon” (TNIV, NLT, NRSV) or “minister.”

Moreover, a number of translations reflect similar biases by referring to Phoebe as having been a “great help” (NIV) or “helper” (NASB) of many, including Paul himself (Romans 16:2). The Greek term here is prostatis, better translated by the NRSV as “benefactor” with its overtones of equality and leadership.

Junia was identified by Paul as an apostle (Romans 16:7). Beginning in the thirteenth century, a number of scholars and translators masculinized her name to Junias, apparently unwilling to admit that there was a female apostle. However, the name Junia is found more than 250 times in Rome alone, while the masculine form Junias is unknown in any Greco-Roman source. Paul clearly was a strong advocate of women in ministry.

These instances of women filling leadership roles in the Bible should be taken as a divinely approved pattern, not as exceptions to divine decrees. Even a limited number of women with scripturally commended leadership roles affirm that God does indeed call women to spiritual leadership.

Source: Assemblies of God (USA) Official Web Site | The Role of Women in Ministry

HIM said:

God opinion through Paul is not good enough for ya? Got it. Take care.

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Why so dismissive? See Post #173 above.
Paul had more to say than the bit you claim as God's opinion.
Why not consider all the facts on this?

zippy2006 said:

One of the strongest Christian values is the infallibility of Scripture.

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One of the problems is that we all agree on the infallibility of Scripture - but that doesn't mean that every word of Scripture applies to us, and should be applied by us, today.
Otherwise:
women wouldn't be able to wear gold, pearls or expensive clothes in church, 1 Timothy 2:9
men could not wear head coverings in church (someone tell the Pope and bishops), 1 Corinthians 11:4
we would have to have slaves so that we could treat them well, Colossians 3:22, Philemon
the church could not financially help any widow who was under the age of 60, 1 Timothy 5:11
Widows under the age of 60 are idle gossipers, 1 Timothy 5:12
We should start drinking more wine and less water, 1 Timothy 5:23.
Note to mention the whole matter of the OT sacrificial and hygiene laws.

@zippy2006 said: ↑
One of the strongest Christian values is the infallibility of Scripture.
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One of the weakest Christian values is heralding a bogus interpretation.

Strong in Him said:

One of the problems is that we all agree on the infallibility of Scripture...

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No, one of the problems is that we simply don't agree on the infallibility of Scripture. Very many pay lip service to infallibility without actually believing it.

zippy2006 said:

No, one of the problems is that we simply don't agree on the infallibility of Scripture. Very many pay lip service to infallibility without actually believing it.

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It is not a matter so much of infallibility as of primacy. In many Christian denominations the Bible is considered to be a part of Tradition, but not the prime source of truth. Thus, in many cases where Tradition conflicts with the Bible, Tradition trumps.

bbbbbbb said:

It is not a matter so much of infallibility as of primacy. In many Christian denominations the Bible is considered to be a part of Tradition, but not the prime source of truth. Thus, in many cases where Tradition conflicts with the Bible, Tradition trumps.

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I see that as another manifestation of the same problem. If tradition trumps Scripture then infallibility has been abandoned.

But yes, practically speaking it is easier to observe a demotion of the Bible than an abandonment of infallibility.

These problems are widespread and signal a movement of Christianity away from the concept of revelation. It is a movement towards the understanding of the far-East where sacred texts are honored but not understood to be revelation in any true sense. The coming decades will be interesting.

zippy2006 said:

No, one of the problems is that we simply don't agree on the infallibility of Scripture. Very many pay lip service to infallibility without actually believing it.

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How do you understand/define infallibility?

I do not hold to any notion of infallibility with which I am familiar. I hold that the scriptures are sufficient as a written witness to the gospel but not in and of themselves. The Holy Spirit works in conjunction with the proclamation of the gospel, written and/or spoken, bringing the hearer to faith.

I guess it depends on how one uses the notion of infallibility. If one means there are no false statements, errors or mistakes, that is problematic. There is a reason we see people (e.g. Tatian) harmonizing the gospels early on. They saw the issues and intended to reconcile them. Did Jesus cleanse the temple at the beginning of his ministry or end? If there are no errors then he must have done it twice. Did Jesus heal one blind man in Jericho or two? Well, three I guess. Did he do it entering or leaving Jericho? Well, both. The synoptics present a plethora of issues, and the infallibilist's solutions seem ad hoc.

The scriptures are sufficient for their purpose as a witness to Christ. To treat them as infallible evidence seems wrong headed, to me. Faith is not a deduction.

To the issue of the OP, I would say the scriptures are a guide to practice, worship, and the Christian life, but filtered through Who we know in Christ under the guidance of the Spirit. The reality is all of scripture has to be interpreted and interpreted according to the rule of love. Obviously, anything found in the OT must be filtered through the lens of Christ. We don't stone rebellious children to death precisely because of Christ. Christians have never. But it also holds for the NT.

Even Paul admits that he says (writes in letters) things from the Lord and things not from the Lord. Which one sounds reflective of the divine and the love of Christ: 1) in Christ there is neither male nor female or 2) women should be quiet and not lead because Eve was deceived? Obviously, the former reflects who we are as the body of Christ. The household commands are a problem, not because their wrong. In Paul's day they were probably the best guidance he could give, but today we know we are equal in Christ and seek to live it out, and instead of sending slaves back to their masters and telling them to obey their masters we seek to set them free.

zippy2006 said:

No, one of the problems is that we simply don't agree on the infallibility of Scripture. Very many pay lip service to infallibility without actually believing it.

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I agree with the infallibility of Scripture. I disagree that every word has to be applied by us today.
Reading the Bible in context, discovering what the authors were trying to convey and how the audiences would have understood at the time is necessary, and important - otherwise we make the Bible say things that its authors never intended.
It's not explaining the Bible away and it's not denying its truth.

What do you believe about the examples that I posted?

zippy2006 said:

I see that as another manifestation of the same problem. If tradition trumps Scripture then infallibility has been abandoned.

But yes, practically speaking it is easier to observe a demotion of the Bible than an abandonment of infallibility.

These problems are widespread and signal a movement of Christianity away from the concept of revelation. It is a movement towards the understanding of the far-East where sacred texts are honored but not understood to be revelation in any true sense. The coming decades will be interesting.

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I agree. I the past few decades are any indication, the next few decades will be interesting, as you say.