God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

Guojing

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God has PROMISED that He will bring absolutely all of them back. And He has PROMISED that even sin cannot cancel that promise. So your cavils are meaningless.

I can imagine if there was Internet during the 400 years of silence from Malachi to Matthew, many Jews will be disagreeing on whether the promised Messiah will really come to Israel, especially after the Romans conquered Jerusalem, and the great roman general, Pompey, entered their sacred Holy of Holies.
 
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BABerean2

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I can imagine if there was Internet during the 400 years of silence from Malachi to Matthew, many Jews will be disagreeing on whether the promised Messiah will really come to Israel, especially after the Romans conquered Jerusalem, and the great roman general, Pompey, entered their sacred Holy of Holies.


How many modern Orthodox Jews have never heard the truth about the Messiah, because their "rabbis" have put a hedge around the Old Testament with the Babylonian Talmud, and many Christians claim Orthodox Jews cannot accept the Gospel at this time?

Forbidden chapter in the Tanackh:


Can we prove Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures?

Prophecy Fulfillment

1. Born of Seed of the Woman, Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4

2. Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18, 24-25

3. Son of God, Psalm 2:7, Matthew 3:17

4. Seed of Abraham, Genesis 22:18, Matthew 1:1

5. Son of Isaac, Genesis 21:12, Luke 3:23, 34

6. Son of Jacob, Numbers 24:17, Luke 3:23, 34

7. Tribe of Judah, Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:23, 34

8. Family line of Jesse, Isaiah 11:1, Luke 3:23, 32

9. House of David, Jeremiah 23:5, Luke 3:23, 31

10. Born at Bethlehem, Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1

11. Presented with Gifts, Psalm 72:10, Matthew 2:1, 11

12. Herod Kills Children, Jeremiah 31:15, Matthew 2:16

13. His Pre-Existence, Micah 5:2, Colossians 1:17

14. Shall Be Immanuel (God with Us), Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23

15. Preceded by Messenger, Isaiah 40:3, Matthew 3:1-2

16. Entered Jerusalem on Donkey, Zechariah 9:9, Luke 19:35-37

17. Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver, Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15

18. Price Thrown for Potter’s field, Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:5, 7

19. Silent Before Accusers, Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 27:12

20. Wounded and Bruised, Isaiah 53:5, Matthew 27:26

21. Crucified with Thieves, Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38

22. Garments Parted and Lots Cast, Psalm 22:14, John 19:23-24

23. His Forsaken Cry, Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46

24. Bones Not Broken, Psalm 34:20, John 19:33

25. His Side Pierced, Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34-37

26. Fulfilled the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-13, 10:16-18, 12:22-24

27. Messiah killed, Daniel 9:24-27, John 19:18-30



Adapted from the book… “The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.

Josh McDowell set out to prove that Christianity was false.

Because of what he found in his research, he became a Christian.


The same thing happened to C.S. Lewis, and Lee Stroebel.


The probability of any man fulfilling just 8 of these is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. (17 zeros)


The writings of Roman historian Tacitus prove Jesus was a real person.


.
 
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Guojing

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How many modern Orthodox Jews have never heard the truth about the Messiah, because their "rabbis" have put a hedge around the Old Testament with the Babylonian Talmud, and many Christians claim Orthodox Jews cannot accept the Gospel at this time?

Forbidden chapter in the Tanackh:


Can we prove Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures?

Prophecy Fulfillment

1. Born of Seed of the Woman, Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4

2. Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18, 24-25

3. Son of God, Psalm 2:7, Matthew 3:17

4. Seed of Abraham, Genesis 22:18, Matthew 1:1

5. Son of Isaac, Genesis 21:12, Luke 3:23, 34

6. Son of Jacob, Numbers 24:17, Luke 3:23, 34

7. Tribe of Judah, Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:23, 34

8. Family line of Jesse, Isaiah 11:1, Luke 3:23, 32

9. House of David, Jeremiah 23:5, Luke 3:23, 31

10. Born at Bethlehem, Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1

11. Presented with Gifts, Psalm 72:10, Matthew 2:1, 11

12. Herod Kills Children, Jeremiah 31:15, Matthew 2:16

13. His Pre-Existence, Micah 5:2, Colossians 1:17

14. Shall Be Immanuel (God with Us), Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23

15. Preceded by Messenger, Isaiah 40:3, Matthew 3:1-2

16. Entered Jerusalem on Donkey, Zechariah 9:9, Luke 19:35-37

17. Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver, Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15

18. Price Thrown for Potter’s field, Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:5, 7

19. Silent Before Accusers, Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 27:12

20. Wounded and Bruised, Isaiah 53:5, Matthew 27:26

21. Crucified with Thieves, Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38

22. Garments Parted and Lots Cast, Psalm 22:14, John 19:23-24

23. His Forsaken Cry, Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46

24. Bones Not Broken, Psalm 34:20, John 19:33

25. His Side Pierced, Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34-37

26. Fulfilled the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-13, 10:16-18, 12:22-24

27. Messiah killed, Daniel 9:24-27, John 19:18-30



Adapted from the book… “The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.

Josh McDowell set out to prove that Christianity was false.

Because of what he found in his research, he became a Christian.


The same thing happened to C.S. Lewis, and Lee Stroebel.


The probability of any man fulfilling just 8 of these is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. (17 zeros)


The writings of Roman historian Tacitus prove Jesus was a real person.


.

Of course its easy for us to believe this now, we were born after the event.

But you cannot understand my point of using that to explain all these current debates on whether Israel the nation will be restored in God's eyes in the future?
 
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Biblewriter

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Of course its easy for us to believe this now, we were born after the event.

But you cannot understand my point of using that to explain all these current debates on whether Israel the nation will be restored in God's eyes in the future?
The problem is not that he cannot understand, but that he desires to deny.
 
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Biblewriter

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[
How many modern Orthodox Jews have never heard the truth about the Messiah, because their "rabbis" have put a hedge around the Old Testament with the Babylonian Talmud, and many Christians claim Orthodox Jews cannot accept the Gospel at this time?

Forbidden chapter in the Tanackh:


Can we prove Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah promised in the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures?

Prophecy Fulfillment

1. Born of Seed of the Woman, Genesis 3:15, Galatians 4:4

2. Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:18, 24-25

3. Son of God, Psalm 2:7, Matthew 3:17

4. Seed of Abraham, Genesis 22:18, Matthew 1:1

5. Son of Isaac, Genesis 21:12, Luke 3:23, 34

6. Son of Jacob, Numbers 24:17, Luke 3:23, 34

7. Tribe of Judah, Genesis 49:10, Luke 3:23, 34

8. Family line of Jesse, Isaiah 11:1, Luke 3:23, 32

9. House of David, Jeremiah 23:5, Luke 3:23, 31

10. Born at Bethlehem, Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1

11. Presented with Gifts, Psalm 72:10, Matthew 2:1, 11

12. Herod Kills Children, Jeremiah 31:15, Matthew 2:16

13. His Pre-Existence, Micah 5:2, Colossians 1:17

14. Shall Be Immanuel (God with Us), Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23

15. Preceded by Messenger, Isaiah 40:3, Matthew 3:1-2

16. Entered Jerusalem on Donkey, Zechariah 9:9, Luke 19:35-37

17. Sold for Thirty Pieces of Silver, Zechariah 11:12, Matthew 26:15

18. Price Thrown for Potter’s field, Zechariah 11:13, Matthew 27:5, 7

19. Silent Before Accusers, Isaiah 53:7, Matthew 27:12

20. Wounded and Bruised, Isaiah 53:5, Matthew 27:26

21. Crucified with Thieves, Isaiah 53:12, Matthew 27:38

22. Garments Parted and Lots Cast, Psalm 22:14, John 19:23-24

23. His Forsaken Cry, Psalm 22:1, Matthew 27:46

24. Bones Not Broken, Psalm 34:20, John 19:33

25. His Side Pierced, Zechariah 12:10, John 19:34-37

26. Fulfilled the New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Hebrews 8:6-13, 10:16-18, 12:22-24

27. Messiah killed, Daniel 9:24-27, John 19:18-30



Adapted from the book… “The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict” by Josh McDowell.

Josh McDowell set out to prove that Christianity was false.

Because of what he found in his research, he became a Christian.


The same thing happened to C.S. Lewis, and Lee Stroebel.


The probability of any man fulfilling just 8 of these is 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. (17 zeros)


The writings of Roman historian Tacitus prove Jesus was a real person.


.
- and ALL o these prophecies were fulfilled LITERALLY. Yet you imagine that the rest of them will only be fulfilled SPIRITUALLY?
 
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Biblewriter

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Are you sure about that?

He also PROMISED Canaan to Abraham personally, he PROMISED Canaan to Isaac personally, and he PROMISED Canaan to Jacob personally, and they did not possess a foot of groud there (Acts 7:5), none of them received the things promised (Hebrews 11:13, 39).

It's not my "cavils" that are meaningingless.
You INTERPRET these promises to be made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob PERSONALLY, meaning that they would be able to PERSONALLY take possession of the land. But God Most certainly did NOT promise Abraham, Isaac, OR Jacob that they would be able to PERSONALLY take possession of the land. Indeed, what good would such a large plot of real estate be to a single individual?

You are WILLFULLY ignoring the fact that in Genesis 15:13-16,God EXPLICITLY told Abraham, "Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."

So Abraham was EXPLICITLY told that the receipt of the promise would be delayed by 400 years, and was EXPLICITLY told that it would be fulfilled "IN THE FOURTH GENERATION." And as Isaac and Jacob surely knew about this detail, that HAD to have understood that the promise applied to their own futures as well.

You are calling GOD, not ME a liar, claiming that the GOD WHO CANNOT LIE made promised that HE had no intention of EVER keeping.
 
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BABerean2

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But you cannot understand my point of using that to explain all these current debates on whether Israel the nation will be restored in God's eyes in the future?

Is there anything about the word "remnant" found below which you do not understand?


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Counterfeit Israel: Pastor Chuck Baldwin


.
 
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Biblewriter

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Is there anything about the word "remnant" found below which you do not understand?


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.



Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:



Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


Counterfeit Israel: Pastor Chuck Baldwin


.
Do YOU have a problem understanding the EXPLICITLY STATED promise that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" will again be "inhabited" by "all the house of Israel, all of it"?

And do you have a problem with understanding the future boundries of the land, as are EXPLICITLY STATED in Ezekiel 47:13-20, or the future division of that PLOT OF REAL ESTATE among "the twelve tribes of Israel" which is EXPLICITLY STATED in Ezekiel 48?

Or do you imagine that the Lord was lying when He said:

“It shall come to pass in that day
That the LORD shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah

From the four corners of the earth.
Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;

Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.” (Isaiah 11:11-14)

You are WILLFULLY ignoring the two scriptures that EXPLICITLY say:

"And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the LORD, 'That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, "This is My people"; And each one will say, "The LORD is my God." ' " (Zechariah 13:8-9)

And:

" 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
" 'I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' " (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

And you are WILLFULLY ignoring the fact that both Isaiah 4:3 and Zechariah 12:10-14 speak of the blessing being upon those that have survived these purges, which AT THAT TIME will constitute the ENTIRETY of the ancient nation of Israel. "everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem." (Isaiah 4:3)
"all the families that remain." (Zechariah 12:14)

You have CHOSEN to LOVE an INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures, which NEVER, EVEN ONCE actually SAY what you imagine they MEAN. And you are using your PERSONAL PREFERENCE of this mere INTERPRETATION as a lame excuse for denying the EXPLICIT STATEMENTS of a very much larger number of scriptures.
 
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Clare73

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You INTERPRET these promises to be made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob PERSONALLY,
Yeah, in my neck o' the woods, that's what "I will give an everlasting possession to you" means.

You're walking both sides of the street on this "literal" thing.
The prophecy of Ezekiel must be taken LITERALLY, no exceptions, while
the land promise must NOT be taken LITERALLY, it's all an exception.

I'm thinkin' we don't get it both ways. . .just sayin'. . .
 
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Biblewriter

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Yeah, in my neck o' the woods, that'S what "I will give an everlasting possession to you" means.

You're walking both sides of the street on this "literal" thing.
The prophecy of Ezekiel must be aken LITERALLY, no exceptions, while
the land promise must NOT be taken LITERALLY, it's all an exception.

I'm thinking we don't get it both ways. . .jusyt sayin'. . .
It most certainly DID NOT mean that, when God EXPLICITLY said it did NOT mean that.
 
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BABerean2

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Do YOU have a problem understanding the EXPLICITLY STATED promise that the "mountains of Israel," along with "the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around" will again be "inhabited" by "all the house of Israel, all of it"?

And do you have a problem with understanding the future boundries of the land, as are EXPLICITLY STATED in Ezekiel 47:13-20, or the future division of that PLOT OF REAL ESTATE among "the twelve tribes of Israel" which is EXPLICITLY STATED in Ezekiel 48?

Or do you imagine that the Lord was lying when He said:

“It shall come to pass in that day
That the LORD shall set His hand again the second time
To recover the remnant of His people who are left,
From Assyria and Egypt,
From Pathros and Cush,
From Elam and Shinar,
From Hamath and the islands of the sea.
He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah

From the four corners of the earth.
Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart,
And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off;

Ephraim shall not envy Judah,
And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.

But they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines toward the west;
Together they shall plunder the people of the East;
They shall lay their hand on Edom and Moab;
And the people of Ammon shall obey them.” (Isaiah 11:11-14)

You are WILLFULLY ignoring the two scriptures that EXPLICITLY say:

"And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the LORD, 'That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, "This is My people"; And each one will say, "The LORD is my God." ' " (Zechariah 13:8-9)

And:

" 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord GOD.
" 'I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.' " (Ezekiel 20:33-38)

And you are WILLFULLY ignoring the fact that both Isaiah 4:3 and Zechariah 12:10-14 speak of the blessing being upon those that have survived these purges, which AT THAT TIME will constitute the ENTIRETY of the ancient nation of Israel. "everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem." (Isaiah 4:3)
"all the families that remain." (Zechariah 12:14)

You have CHOSEN to LOVE an INTERPRETATION of the MEANINGS of a relatively small number of scriptures, which NEVER, EVEN ONCE actually SAY what you imagine they MEAN. And you are using your PERSONAL PREFERENCE of this mere INTERPRETATION as a lame excuse for denying the EXPLICIT STATEMENTS of a very much larger number of scriptures.


Do you believe the Apostle Paul was wrong in Romans 9:8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5?

Do you believe the Apostle Paul was wrong in Galatians 3:16-29?

Your argument is with Paul, instead of with me?
Apparently, Paul's definition of Israel is not the same as yours.

Do you still believe modern Orthodox Jews will be saved outside of the New Covenant Church during a future time?


The Modern State of Israel: Former Dispensationalist, Pastor Steve Gregg


.
 
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Biblewriter

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Do you believe the Apostle Paul was wrong in Romans 9:8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5?

Do you believe the Apostle Paul was wrong in Galatians 3:16-29?

Your argument is with Paul, instead of with me?

Do you still believe modern Orthodox Jews will be saved outside of the New Covenant Church during a future time?

.
No, I believe all of these scriptures. And I most certainly agree with Paul, that "the promises" STILL "pertain" to his "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, (Romans 9:3-4) and that the unbelieving Jews, who "Concerning the gospel," "are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election" "are beloved for the sake of the fathers." and WHY, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29)

What I condemn, and not merely disagree with is the wrested interpretations you place upon the inspired writings of the Apostles. Your interpretations of these scriptures make God out to be a liar.
 
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BABerean2

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And I most certainly agree with Paul, that "the promises" STILL "pertain" to his "brethren," his "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, (Romans 9:3-4) and that the unbelieving Jews, who "Concerning the gospel," "are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election" "are beloved for the sake of the fathers." and WHY, "For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:28-29)


The verse below is also often used by Dispensationalists in an attempt to make their doctrine work. Dispensationalists often insist an Israelite can be an enemy of God, and the elect at the same time.


Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.



Throughout Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul refers to two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not faithful. Paul begins the chapter this way is Romans 11:1-5, by describing the Israelites who were Baal worshippers, in contrast to the faithful “remnant”, during the time of Elijah. Paul said there was also a faithful “remnant” during his time. Therefore, based on Romans 11:1-5, there are two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:28. The Israelites who rejected Christ were the “they” who are the enemies of God, while the group of “they” who accepted Christ are the “election”. Paul ends the passage in the same way that he began the passage, with two different groups of Israelites.


This interpretation agrees with Romans 9:6, and Romans 9:8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, instead of ignoring these earlier passages of the same letter.



.
 
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Clare73

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It most certainly DID NOT mean that, when God EXPLICITLY said it did NOT mean that.
Where do I find the statement where God's words were LITERALLY "I do not explicitly mean what I promised,"
when Hebrews 11:13 states "none of them received the things promised."

Why are you not taking Hebrews 11:13 LITERALLY and fighting so hard to defend your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) against authoritative NT teaching?
 
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BABerean2

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Why are you not taking Hebrews 11:13 LITERALLY and fighting so hard to defend your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) against authoritative NT teaching?

Once a person writes one or more books promoting a man-made Bible doctrine and then starts selling those books, how hard would it be to admit you are wrong ?

"Biblewriter" would most certainly fall into the category above.


I do appreciate the fact that he has reduced using of the word "liar" against those who do not agree with his viewpoint.



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Biblewriter

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The verse below is also often used by Dispensationalists in an attempt to make their doctrine work. Dispensationalists often insist an Israelite can be an enemy of God, and the elect at the same time.


Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.



Throughout Romans chapter 11 the Apostle Paul refers to two different groups of Israelites, one faithful, and one not faithful. Paul begins the chapter this way is Romans 11:1-5, by describing the Israelites who were Baal worshippers, in contrast to the faithful “remnant”, during the time of Elijah. Paul said there was also a faithful “remnant” during his time. Therefore, based on Romans 11:1-5, there are two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:28. The Israelites who rejected Christ were the “they” who are the enemies of God, while the group of “they” who accepted Christ are the “election”. Paul ends the passage in the same way that he began the passage, with two different groups of Israelites.


This interpretation agrees with Romans 9:6, and Romans 9:8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, instead of ignoring these earlier passages of the same letter.



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This is NOT a doctrine simply of Dispensationalists. It is the EXPLICITLY STATED doctrine of scripture. In so wresting this verse, you are WILLFULLY omitting the very next verse, which is "for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable." The Greek text of Romans 11:28 provides absolutely zero excuse for even pretending that it refers to two different groups of Jews.

In the first place, you should notice that, in both places where the clause "they are" occurs in this verse, the words "they" and "are" are in italics, indicating that these two words have no basis in the Greek text to support them, but were added to make the sentence standard English.

Next, the word translated "they are enemies" is εχθροι, echthroi in our alphabet. This is the nominative plural masculine form of word number word number 2190 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. And the word translated "they are beloved" is αγαπητοι, agapetoi in our alphabet. his is the nominative plural masculine form of word number word number 27 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. So in BOTH cases, the form of the word is identical, clearly indicating that these two words are referring to the same group pf people.

this is re4ferring back to what had been said in verse 25, 'For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25) The Greek word here translated "until" is αχρις, achris in our alphabet, word number 891 in Strong's Greek Dictionary. This Greek word translated literally as until, but it carries with it a reference to a specific terminus, in this cahe the terminus specified is when "the fullness of the gentiles has come in."

So this passage MOST CERTAINLY states, and CLEARLY states, that these people, while currently enemies of the gospel, are yet beloved. and why are still beloved, even though they are currently enemies" Because (for that is what "for" means) the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.

This brings to memory the promise made to David:

“If his sons forsake My law
And do not walk in My judgments,
If they break My statutes
And do not keep My commandments,
Then I will punish their transgression with the rod,
And their iniquity with stripes.
Nevertheless My lovingkindness I will not utterly take from him,
Nor allow My faithfulness to fail.
My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips.” (Psalm 89:30-34)

Here, God EXPLICITLY said that EVEN SIN could not cancel His promise.
Sin, if it came, would be dalt with. But the promise would STILL stand unaltered.

And you are also WILLFULLY ignoring the fact that, just two chapters earlier, the same Holy Spirit that inspired these words had said that even now, long after the Jews has rejected their king at Calvary, and long after they had sent a messenger after Him in the person of Stephen, saying "we will not have this man to rule over us," Yet, even after all that, "the promises" STILL "pertain" to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites." (Romans 9:3-4)

The word of God is simply too explicitly stated to leave any room whatsoever for your wresting of what it so very clearly says.
 
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Biblewriter

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Where do I find the statement where God's words were LITERALLY "I do not explicitly mean what I promised,"
when Hebrews 11:13 states "none of them received the things promised."

Why are you not taking Hebrews 11:13 LITERALLY and fighting so hard to defend your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8) against authoritative NT teaching?
I QUOTED the scripture in which God EXPLICITLY told Abraham that this promise applied to "the fourth generation," and would be fulfilled in "FOUR HUNDRED YEARS."
 
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BABerean2

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So this passage MOST CERTAINLY states, and CLEARLY states, that these people, while currently enemies of the gospel, are yet beloved. and why are still beloved, even though they are currently enemies" Because (for that is what "for" means) the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.


Your definition only works by ignoring Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5, of the same letter to the church at Rome. Do you think Paul changed his mind after he wrote this part of the letter? Do you think he was saying Jews would be saved outside of the New Covenant Church during a future time, as Dispensationalists often claim?


You are also ignoring 1 John 2:22-23, and 2 John 1:7-11. These last two passages actually define the word "antichrist".
Dispensationalists love to speculate about the word "antichrist", but how many times have we heard them discuss the two passages above? Why? These passages reveal there cannot be Two Peoples of God, in the same way John 10:16 reveals there cannot be Two Peoples of God.


The New Covenant

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.



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Clare73

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Clare73 said:
Hebrews 11:13 - "They did not receive the things promised."

Why are you not taking Hebrews 11:13 LITERALLY and fighting so hard to defend your personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers12:8) against
authoritative NT teaching
?
I QUOTED the scripture in which God EXPLICITLY told Abraham that this promise applied to "the fourth generation," and would be fulfilled in "FOUR HUNDRED YEARS."
Which does not negate the LITERAL promise made to Abraham personally, as Hebrews 11:13 clearly states. . .you got it WRONG!

Non-responsive. . .
 
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Which does not negate the LITERAL promise made to Abraham personally, as Hebrews 11:13 clearly states. . .you got it WRONG!

Non-responsive. . .
This is completely incorrect. There is no scripture that says that Abraham was ever told that he would personally be able to take possession of the land. But, contrary to your claim, God EXPLICITLY told him the very opposite.

You are using your personal interpretation of the meaning of a scripture that does not actually say what you claim it means, as an excuse for denying what another scripture explicitly says.
 
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