Limited Atonement: God's Power to Save

Cormack said:

There are hordes of people Jesus doesn’t save and had no intention to ever save according to 5 point Calvinism, “doomed from the womb,” wrote John Calvin, “created for the day of destruction,” quote his followers, so once again yes it’s scary, my morning cup of coffee trembles at the prospect and my Cheerios have lost all their cheer.

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My Sunny Delight is refusing to come out of the fridge

Humble_Disciple said:

If Calvinism is true, we can have full faith and confidence that, when the Gospel is preached throughout the world, God will unfailingly use it as the means to draw His elect unto Himself:

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Is there any way of knowing if you're someone Christ died for or one of those He didn't? If you're in the latter camp, does it make any difference how devout you are and how good a life you lead - are you still doomed?

Humble_Disciple said:

That question is answered in this video:

No one given to the Father to repent and believe will be turned away. If you repent and believe, that's evidence you are among the elect.

John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

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The video and quote don't address my specific questions so, unless I hear otherwise, I'll have to take it that there's in fact no way of knowing in this life whether you're one of the elect or one of the doomed and personal belief and conduct make no difference to this.

Humble_Disciple said:

Limited atonement is the hardest doctrine of Calvinism to accept. For this reason, there are four-point Calvinists:
https://www.gotquestions.org/Amyraldism.html

Everyone limits the atonement in some way. Those who believe in unlimited atonement limit the atonement’s power, that Jesus died for people who end up in hell.

Those who believe in limited atonement limit its extent, that Jesus died only for His elect, who will without fail be saved, so not a drop of Jesus’ blood was wasted.

In His torture and death, Jesus suffered the full measure of God’s wrath for sin. Limited atonement means that not an iota of Jesus’ suffering was endured in vain.



Until they repent and believe, it's impossible to tell who God's elect might be, so the Gospel must be preached indiscriminately. Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:15, Luke 14:23

God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as innumerable as the stars:

Genesis 15:5
Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”

Christians, by faith, are children of Abraham:

Galatians 3:7
Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.

While the atonement is limited in extent, it covers innumerable children of Abraham.

Unless you are a universalist, you believe that only Christians will be saved. That's what Calvinists believe as well, and the number of saved Christians will be many, as Jesus promised. Matthew 20:28, Mark 10:45

Limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus didn't die for non-Christians who never accept the Gospel. It's not some scary teaching. Jesus died as a "ransom for many," those who accept the Gospel, not for those who reject it.

Limited atonement is simply the teaching that Jesus didn't die for those who live their entire lives rejecting the Gospel, so that not a drop of Jesus' blood was wasted. The more we sympathize with the sufferings of Jesus, the more likely we might be to accept limited atonement.

https://tubitv.com/movies/550864/the-passion-of-the-christ

Tubi is a legal source to watch free movies online.

If you are among God's elect, His people, Jesus purchased you with the shedding of his blood.

Luke 1:68
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed His people


The only proper response is your love and obedience. If Jesus died for the full weight of your sin, then the more you sin, the more you add to His sufferings.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Isaiah 53:5
But He was wounded for our transgressions,
He was bruised for our iniquities;
The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,
And by His stripes we are healed.

If your apartment building was burning down, and a firefighter died while saving you but not your neighbor, what would your proper response be?

Should you gripe and grumble about how unfair it was that the firefighter gave up his life for you, but not your neighbor? Or should you be thankful for his sacrifice?

There is nothing unfair about God’s sovereignty in election.(Romans 9:21) No one who desires to be saved will be turned away. (John 6:37) If you sincerely care about your salvation, that’s a sign you are among God’s elect.

It's because I love Jesus that I believe in limited atonement, that not a drop of His blood was shed in vain. Also, the doctrine of unlimited atonement seems to put the Persons of the Trinity at odds with one another:


John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 are interpreted to mean that God intends to save all people without exception, but they must be read in context of other passages of John’s writings:

John 11
51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation,
52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John 11:52 says that Jesus died, not for all people without exception, but for “the children of God who were scattered abroad,” just as Jesus says in His priestly prayer of John 17:9 that He wasn’t praying for the whole world, but to those given to Him by the Father for salvation.

If John meant the whole world without exception, then the entire world must have been following Jesus in John 12:19, rather than just a large crowd.

John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

John’s references to Jesus dying for the world’s sins includes people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, rather than every individual without exception.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands

When John 12:32 is interpreted as referring to all people without exception, rather than all kinds of people in every ethnic group and station of life, the conclusion is universalism, which is an unbiblical teaching.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.

The Greek word translated as “draw” is “helko,” which means “to drag.” John 12:32 must be read in context of John 6:44, which promises that all who are drawn to Jesus will inherit the resurrection unto life on the last day:

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

When 1 Timothy 2:4 says that God desires “all people” to be saved, this must be read in context of 1 Timothy 2:2, “kings and all who are in high positions.” God desires to save all kinds of people, regardless of their station in life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If God is not willing that anyone in the world, without exception, should perish, then He seems to be failing miserably with so many ending up in hell. The “any” and “all” in 2 Peter 3:9 seem to be referring only to the elect.

The Epistle to the Hebrews presents Jesus as high priest of the New Covenant. Just as the high priest in ancient Israel presented the sacrifice for Israel alone, and not everyone in the world, Jesus offers up Himself on behalf of the elect:

Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 13:12
Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate.

John 10
15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep

If you truly care about the salvation of the lost, you should support evangelism, since the preaching of the Gospel is the means God has ordained to awaken faith in His elect. Some of the greatest missionaries have been Calvinists.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.

When John 12:32 is interpreted as referring to all people without exception, rather than all kinds of people in every ethnic group and station of life, the conclusion is universalism, which is an unbiblical teaching.

The Greek word translated as “draw” is “helko,” which means “to drag.” John 12:32 must be read in context of John 6:44, which promises that all who are drawn to Jesus will inherit the resurrection unto life on the last day:

John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, then so many wouldn’t have turned away:

John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, He wouldn’t have said this to the Pharisees:

John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 are interpreted to mean that God intends to save all people without exception, but they must be read in context of other passages of John’s writings:

John 11
51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.

John 11:52 says that Jesus died, not for all people without exception, but for “the children of God who were scattered abroad,” just as Jesus says in His priestly prayer of John 17:9 that He wasn’t praying for the whole world, but to those given to Him by the Father for salvation.

If John meant the whole world without exception, then the entire world must have been following Jesus in John 12:19, rather than just a large crowd.

John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

John’s references to Jesus dying for the world’s sins includes people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, rather than every individual without exception.

Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands

According to Arminian theologian Kenneth Grider, the Arminian rejection of limited atonement ultimately leads to rejecting penal substitution altogether:

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I don't agree that unlimited atonement limits its power. The atonement has the power to save all. I would agree that its effect on people is limited, not its power. A vaccine's power is not limited because not all take it.

I also like to ask: Would Jesus have suffered less if he died for less people? If not, in what way could any of his blood have been wasted? It's not like each person has only a part of the atonement. The full atonement, all the blood is required for each person.

Humble_Disciple said:

According to Arminian theologian Kenneth Grider, the Arminian rejection of limited atonement ultimately leads to rejecting penal substitution altogether:

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I definitely agree it was not penal substitution, the innocent being punished and the guilty going free is totally unjust.
But I also disagree with the "governmental theory of the atonement", since God would not lack the Love to forgive us out right and thus need help from Christ to forgive. I do agree with the idea we get a better view of the severity of sin with Christ going to the cross, but there is much more to it.

1 Timothy 2:4 declares that God desires all men to be saved and 1 Timothy 2:6 declares that Christ gave himself a ransom for all men. Your Calvinist clipping that contradicts the clear meaning of the passage has has problems. Firstly look how it is translated in multiple bible versions - it does not support a subset of humanity. Secondly even if one assumes a subset of humanity, verses 1, 4,and 6 of 1 Timothy 2 all use the all men term and verse 1 stipulates that earthly rulers are included in all men. Therefore 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2:6 cannot be whittled down to the elect - it only makes sense as all humanity - but nice try

.

Humble_Disciple said:

What limited atonement and universalism share in common is that they both make Jesus' atonement definite, that it will unfailingly save everyone it was intended to save

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What sort of a god would only intend to save certain people? The Bible makes it very clear that God desires to save all.

Humble_Disciple said:

I wish universalism were true, but it's not taught in the Bible

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I'm glad that Limited Atonement isn't true and that it isn't taught in the Bible.

Humble_Disciple said:

it seems to provide license to sin.

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What's the better motivation, to try to do God's will out of love for Him and others or out of fear of hell? Would anyone start going around robbing old ladies just because they became convinced they were going to heaven (well, I'm sure some would but not many)?

Humble_Disciple said:

Calvinism vs. Arminianism is not just a matter of predestination vs. free will. It’s also a question of what did Christ’s suffering and death accomplish.

Did Jesus give up His life to unfailingly save a definite number of people or to just make salvation possible for no individuals in particular, with the possibility of falling away from salvation?

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God has allowed and even caused many an innocent believer to experience tragedies including being tortured, humiliated and murdered like with Jesus, to provide the very best opportunity for those still able to make the free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity.

After God sacrificially did all He can to help the individual accept His help and that person refuses, you can see how God would be upset.

I think on this topic we need to read the Old Testament. First Adam and Eve were decieved by Lucifer and caused sin to enter the world. Second Adam and Eve were promised a savior. God was that savior every Christian agrees.. Third God flooded the earth to remove wicked people from the earth, Noah was spared and he started the new human race. Fourth Abraham was promised a vastly large number of v elect people from every tongue, tribe and nation and across the whole world. Fifth Jacob was born and took over and the Jewish nation was started.

Nobody bats an eyelash that the Jews are God's chosen people but all of a sudden God limits the atonement and has since his promise to Abraham and its a big deal. Well guess what? John saw the very promise made to Abraham come to life. Read Revelation 7:9 and then tell me if there isn't a large number of chosen people that belong from every tribe and nation, just as God has promised.

God promises over and over again that his chosen people are secure, now and forever. It's funny how when the Bible fits itself together people make all kinds of heresies and try to deny the eternal security of God's elect people. It's there from the very first page until the end. When Jesus who Christians believe to be God himself says "I will lose none of them" that should settle the matter once and for all. Unless of course, God is capable of lying?