Losing Religion to Find Salvation

Actually many verses in the Gospel of John tell people how how to have Eternal Life. That was the reason that book was written. The sin of the world was taken away at the cross.

d taylor said:

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Actually many verses in the Gospel of John tell people how how to have Eternal Life. That was the reason that book was written. The sin of the world was taken away at the cross.

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John, like the rest of the 12, was preaching to Israel the gospel of the kingdom, which required them to believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah to receive salvation (John 20:31).

Thanks to people like Billy Graham, people over-rely on John 3:16 and insert Paul's gospel into understanding that verse when John never intended to tell others to believe that Christ died for their sins on the cross to give them eternal life.

d taylor said:

Wrong​

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If you want to discuss, there is little point saying wrong and not offering your own understanding.

Dan Perez said:

The story id told about a man that fell into a pit and could not get himself out .

A philosopher came along and reasoned with him why there are pits min the world .

A psychologist came by and researched the procedures by which he landed in the pit . and tried to help him to accept thr pit .

A religious man came by and told him to keep trying to pull himself up by his bootstraps to keep working at getting out of the pit .

A Scientist came along and said , " You only think you're in a pit .

A televangelist came by and promised to raise 50 million dollars to minister to his needs and told him that his lack of faith led him to be in this pit .

A politician came by and volunteered to start a National a National Pit Elimination Program .

A county inspector said , Did you have a permit for that pit ?

An optimist sdaid , Things could be worse .

A pessimist claimed , Things are going to be worse .

But Jesus Christ came and He lifted him out of the pit .

Outside og Christ , each of us are in a pit we can not get ourselvres out of ther Pit of Sin , death , condemnation , and Judgment .

Rom 10:9 and tells us how to get out of the PIT OF SIN >

dan p

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There is nothing inherent to religion that involves trying to save ourselves. Furthermore, the concept of salvation is inherently religious.

Guojing said:

If you want to discuss, there is little point saying wrong and not offering your own understanding.

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there is noting to discuss

d taylor said:

there is noting to discuss

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Alright, we have different motivations for participating in bible discussions.

Dan Perez said:

The story is told about a man that fell into a pit and could not get himself out .

Rom 10:9 and tells us how to get out of the PIT OF SIN >

dan p

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Dear Dan,
Your story was quite good but do you really believe it?

In your story, Christ did all the work of getting the man out of the pit but then you end the story by saying we must get ourselves out ("tells us how to get out of the pit"). If Christ is truly mankind's Savior, He will do all the work of getting us out, even the spiritual work that must occur within us.

Salvation occurs ONLY because of the work of Christ. To save us, He comes to us individually and gives us a measure of faith and the Holy Spirit. He comes uninvited and without our permission because we are "trapped in the pit" (the pit is our carnal nature). Without His gifts, NO ONE would ever confess Jesus as Lord.

This is our spiritual condition we all have from birth:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

After Christ comes to us and gives us the Holy Spirit, everything changes "within" us. Only then do we call Jesus "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

And as the scripture says, once we have the gift of the Holy Spirit, we can longer reject Christ. The Spirit loves the Lord and when it is "within" us, we too, will love the Lord.

Our salvation ONLY occurs because Christ comes to us and prepares our hearts with the Holy Spirit. And from that preparation, the only answer from our tongue is acceptance.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

But mankind is spiritually blind and is not aware of the work that Christ does in our hearts (His spiritual work).

Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put OBSCURITY in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.

Because Christ's work within us is hidden, we believe the confession of faith is our own work - that it came from our "free will" ability to choose. But that belief is a lie from Satan. Mankind, in our created spiritual state, cannot make that confession of faith. That confession only occurs AFTER Christ gives us the Holy Spirit.

Paul's confession of faith is the pattern (type) all mankind will follow for salvation:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul was "called out" on the Damascus Road when Christ came to him uninvited and gave him the Holy Spirit (the Early Rain). Paul immediately fell to the earth and called Jesus "Lord".

This event of the Early Rain of the Spirit is how an unbeliever becomes a believer. It is not by their "free will" choice that it happens. Paul hated Christ and was on his way to persecute Christians. He had no intention of becoming a Christian himself. But Paul did become a "called out" Christian because it was God's "will" for it to happen. Christ came to Paul uninvited and did His work within Paul, without Paul's permission. Paul wasn't even aware that Christ did this work within him because it was "spiritual" work which could not be seen with human eyes. But we do know that it happened because of the evidence of Paul's confession and his willingness to obey Christ.

This is the only way an unbeliever can become a Christian because man's spiritual condition from birth is "marred". This marred spiritual condition causes us all to become carnally minded. This is why mankind sins. Even Adam and Eve were carnally minded BEFORE they sinned and in fact, it was the reason WHY they sinned. And as God's Word says, the carnal mind hates the ways of God and cannot understand Him. Nor does the carnal mind seek God out from its own "choice" to do so. Mankind is utterly lost and cannot do anything to save themselves. They are in a PIT. Because of this truth, Christ MUST come to us and do all the work of getting us out of the pit and He does so without our invitation or permission.

God created mankind subject to vanity without our permission and He will make us righteous without our permission.

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, AS SEEMED GOOD TO THE POTTER to make it.

Our salvation is 100% the work of Christ. This is how He pulls us from the pit. In the end, all mankind will be saved because God never fails at anything. Certainly, mankind's "will" is no challenge for God to overcome:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Joe

Guojing said:

If you want to discuss, there is little point saying wrong and not offering your own understanding.

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There is nothing to discuss, Eternal Life is God's free gift to anyone who thrust in the promised Messiah (from the prophecies of the Tanakh) for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

It a simple black and white issue, either people thrust in The Messiah (Jesus) for Eternal Life or a person does not trust in Jesus for life.

Dan Perez said:

And I see what you mean and I could have done a better as you know that we are helpless and that Christ is able to cleanse us and save us , by opening the heart , Acts 16:14 and as He did to Paul in Acts 9:6 and that Paul is the PATTERN for salvation as written in 1 Tim 1:16 .

dan p

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Dear Dan,
I am very surprised that you believe what I presented. I haven't met anyone on this forum who can accept this truth of scripture. The Doctrine of Free Will is a "works" based belief system which is rejected by Christ. We must rest from our labors and enter His rest (He does all the work). And since it is His work, how can Christ fail? He can't and that is why salvation is assured for all mankind.

However, there is an "order" to mankind's salvation. In this present age, God is ONLY saving His "First-Fruits" (the Elect) of His harvest of mankind. They are very few in number.

Matt 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

The vast majority of mankind will be saved at the end of the final age (the Lake of Fire age).

In this age, most of the world is left to die in their sins as unbelievers. But "many" are called out from the world and they fill up the church pews on Sunday mornings. These "called out" believers have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit (Paul's Damascus Road experience). This group of believers include Christ's Elect before they are converted. For them (the Elect, chosen from the foundation of the world, predestinated), Christ will come to them a second time with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the baptism Paul received after being in Damascus (blind and in bed) for three days. It is also the same baptism the Apostles received in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost. Until the Latter Rain event occurs within a chosen believer though, they are just as carnally minded, spiritually blind and deceived by Satan as any other "called out" believer who has only received the Early Rain.

As for the non-chosen believers who have only received the Early Rain of the Spirit, they will die in their sins along with the unbelievers. Both groups will go to judgment (Lake of Fire) upon their resurrection from the grave and will not receive "life" during the ages. But from their Lake of Fire judgment, they will be saved by Christ.

More on the Christ's judgment (Lake of Fire):

Fire is the spiritual term for Christ's judgment. His judgment is not like mankind's judgment.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Mankind is evil and cannot understand Christ's judgment. Only after a person is converted into a child of God can they understand. Here are a few verses of what Christ's judgment is like:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Jer 9:24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Since all mankind MUST be judged, even the Elect are judged. Their judgment happens in this age, within their lifetimes before they die. The "ends of the ages" come upon them now.

1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.

They do not have to wait until the final age for salvation and judgment.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Note this verse:

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Fire represents Christ's judgment and the "sword" represents the Word of God who is Christ. From this judgment, many will be slain (mankind's Old Man). But from that death, we will be "born again" as a child of God. This is conversion. The marred vessel is destroyed and made into a new vessel "as seemed good for the potter to make".

Christ judges us because He loves us and it is necessary for our salvation. In the end, all mankind will be judged and saved. This verse will then be testified to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Do you believe this as well?

Joe

Dan Perez said:

[QUOTE="FaithWillDo, post: 76
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Do you believe this as well?

Joe[/QUOTE

I would have to see how you interpret 1 Tim 2:4 as there are Relative pronouns , Accusative cases Aorist tenses , Passive voices , and a Gentive case .
Not a Greek scholar , but I do read Greek books , like Grammar of N T by DANA and MANTRY and blue letter bible .

I am an ACT 9 Dispensationlist and begin the B O C at Acts 9 with Paul

dan p

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Dear Dan,

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I understand the verse as the KJV is presents it. I know some people want to say that the phrase "will have" (thelo) should be translated "desires" but I do not agree. However, even if it says "desires", the meaning is not changed since God gets all His desires:

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

The verse needs to say "will have" to support the event that will later be "testified" to have happened. The word "desires" does not require anything to be accomplished. It is an emotion. And if Christ only desires to save us, why would it need to be proven to be true at some future date? An emotion can be proven in the present. The translation of "desires" (or any other word) in verse 4 makes no sense in light of the phrase "to be testified in due time". The only reasonable conclusion is that the verse says that Christ will save all mankind and have all mankind come unto the knowledge of the truth. When that day arrives, Christ's word will be testified to be true.

Also, 1Tim 2:4-6 as presented in the KJM, does not stand alone in scripture. It is supported by many other verses.

I believe God established the "ages" which some might view as dispensationalism but there is a difference. As for being an Acts 9 dispensationalist, I am not. There has always been only ONE pathway that leads to God & salvation and that is through FAITH in Jesus Christ. No one in the past ages has been saved yet. Even those who were justified by faith, are not perfect yet and will need to finish traveling the pathway to salvation in the final age. God is always the same and our approach to Him must be by faith alone in Christ.

Joe

d taylor said:

There is nothing to discuss, Eternal Life is God's free gift to anyone who thrust in the promised Messiah (from the prophecies of the Tanakh) for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

It a simple black and white issue, either people thrust in The Messiah (Jesus) for Eternal Life or a person does not trust in Jesus for life.

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But would you agree that, for eternal life today, people need to "trust" that Christ died for their sins and rose again on the 3rd day for their justification, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4?

If you merely trust that Christ is your Messiah, aka John 20:31/John 3:16, that will not give you eternal life today.

Dan Perez said:

And in 1 Tim 2:4 the Greek word THELO / WILL HAVE is in the Greek PRESENT TENSE , Active voice and in the Indicative Mood .

Look at G2309 and see how many words you can use for THELO , To will , have in mind , intend and see STRONG'S Dictionary for G2309 and Blue Letter bible will list THELO in the first SEVEN chapters of Matthew .

dan p

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Dear Dan,
Yes, I know it can be translated differently, BUT it needs to be "will have" so that something is testified to be true at some point in the future. Otherwise, the phrase "to be testified in due time" makes no sense. The word "desires" does not require anything to be accomplished. And if Christ only desires to save us, why would it need to be proven to be true at some future date? An emotion can be proven in the present. The translation of "desires" (or any other word) in verse 4 makes no sense. Christ will save all mankind and have them come unto the knowledge of the truth and it will be testified in due time.

Anyway, the translation of thelo as "desires" doesn't change the outcome of mankind's salvation since God gets all His desires. If God desires to save all mankind, He will do it. Mankind's "will" is not a problem for God to overcome.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

God's work is spiritual which means it is done "within" mankind. God accomplishes His "will" by changing the heart of man to match to His "will".

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

All things are caused by God, even all the good and evil. God uses evil to accomplish His good purpose of making new children who are like Him and who know the difference between good and evil.

I assume you agree with at least some of what I stated above since you believe that Paul's conversion is the pattern for the salvation of all mankind. Where does your understanding differ from mine?

Joe

Guojing said:

But would you agree that, for eternal life today, people need to "trust" that Christ died for their sins and rose again on the 3rd day for their justification, aka 1 Cor 15:1-4?

If you merely trust that Christ is your Messiah, aka John 20:31/John 3:16, that will not give you eternal life today.

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It is, has always been and will always be The Messiah and faith in The Messiah that gives a person Eternal Life. A person receives Eternal Life when they trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

Various chapters in the Bible are known by one-word descriptions. We all know that the love chapter is 1 Corinthians 13. The repentance chapter is Luke 15. The faith chapter is Hebrews 11. The Millennium chapter is Revelation 20. And the resurrection chapter is 1 Corinthians 15.

1st Corinthians 15 is addressing believers who do not believe there will be a resurrection.

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

I have nothing more to say on this.

d taylor said:

It is, has always been and will always be The Messiah and faith in The Messiah that gives a person Eternal Life. A person receives Eternal Life when they trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

Various chapters in the Bible are known by one-word descriptions. We all know that the love chapter is 1 Corinthians 13. The repentance chapter is Luke 15. The faith chapter is Hebrews 11. The Millennium chapter is Revelation 20. And the resurrection chapter is 1 Corinthians 15.

1st Corinthians 15 is addressing believers who do not believe there will be a resurrection.

Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

I have nothing more to say on this.

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So is your answer to my question yes or no?

I assume its a yes.