God`s Prophetic Days.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
At present because the rapture/resurrection has not happen yet.

So, that's your answer to my first question. For some reason you didn't answer my other question. Do you believe that Jesus will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him when He comes from heaven, per 1 Thess 3:13 and 1 Thess 4:14?

Douggg · Jul 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Yes, that happens at His second coming after the tribulation. Scripture does not teach that He will be coming twice in the future.

Jesus coming from heaven for the resurrection/rapture. Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the great tribulation.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
1Thessonians4:14 is Jesus bringing the souls of the dead in Christ to be re-united, at the time of the resurrection, with their raised incorruptible glorified bodies.

The timing is between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

So, you're saying you believe Jesus will come twice in the future even though scripture only teaches that He will come once. You believe He will come once with the souls of the dead in Christ before the great tribulation and once with His people in incorruptible, glorified bodies after the great tribulation.

Which of those allegedly separate events do you think the following verse is referring to and how can you tell?

1 Thessalonians 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

If Jesus was coming with His saints twice in the future (once without glorified bodies and once with glorified bodies), I wonder why Paul didn't specify which of those two events he was talking about here? Was he trying to confuse people?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
Jesus coming from heaven for the resurrection/rapture. Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the great tribulation.

Like I said. Scripture doesn't teach that.

Douggg · Jul 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, that's your answer to my first question. For some reason you didn't answer my other question. Do you believe that Jesus will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him when He comes from heaven, per 1 Thess 3:13 and 1 Thess 4:14?

1Thessalion3:13 is not the bringing of souls, but the bringing of the saints, having hearts unblameable in holiness before God.

11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Douggg · Jul 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you're saying you believe Jesus will come twice in the future even though scripture only teaches that He will come once.

I am saying that Jesus comes with a shout to raise the dead in Christ and translate the living in Christ at the resurrection/rapture event. A one time event.

Then, over three and half years later, Jesus returns with His saints, to earth at His Second Coming, standing on the mount of olives splitting it in half - only to happen once.

Douggg · Jul 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Like I said. Scripture doesn't teach that.

Jesus coming from heaven for the resurrection/rapture in 1Thessalonians4:14-18?

Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the great tribulation in Matthew 24:29-30?

Those are not in your bible?

Spiritual Jew · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
1Thessalion3:13 is not the bringing of souls, but the bringing of the saints, having hearts unblameable in holiness before God.

11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.

12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:

13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

You are badly misinterpreting this passage. The ones who Paul was talking about that the Lord would make their hearts unblameable in holiness before God were not the saints that come with Christ at His coming, but were the ones that Paul was writing to, who were ALIVE at the time as part of the church of the Thessalonians.

Paul was talking about the people in the church of the Thessalonians increasing and abounding in love toward one another and all people so that their hearts would be seen as unblameable in holiness before God.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
I am saying that Jesus comes with a shout to raise the dead in Christ and translate the living in Christ at the resurrection/rapture event. A one time event.

Then, over three and half years later, Jesus returns with His saints, to earth at His Second Coming, standing on the mount of olives splitting it in half - only to happen once.

You have Him descending from heaven twice in the future. Scripture does not teach that. That is why you only see Him described as descending from heaven once in the book of Revelation. He will descend once, and according to both 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10, He will gather with His people "in the air" and at the same time/event He will destroy His enemies and, as Paul said in 1 Thess 5:3, "they shall not escape".

Spiritual Jew · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
Jesus coming from heaven for the resurrection/rapture in 1Thessalonians4:14-18?

Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the great tribulation in Matthew 24:29-30?

Those are not in your bible?

LOL. Of course they are.

Douggg said:
"Jesus coming from heaven for the resurrection/rapture. Jesus's Second Coming at the end of the great tribulation"

You said this in response to my saying that He isn't coming twice. I knew you were saying His coming from heaven for the resurrection/rapture was a different event than His second coming. Why could I discern what you meant, but you couldn't discern what I meant? I believe you did know what I meant, but you're just trying to be difficult.

I'm saying the same thing I've been saying in this discussion, which is that there are not two separate events when Jesus will come from heaven because He is only coming from heaven once in the future. Both 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 and 2 Thess 1:7-10 describe that one future event, as does Matthew 24:29-51. All of them describe a gathering of His people at His coming with His enemies being destroyed at that same time.

jeffweedaman · Jul 22, 2021

Douggg said:
Jeff, what Jesus was presenting were sayings that are to make people think about their behavior, care, and mercy to others. And that some day they would stand before him and either enter the Kingdom of God, or not.

Jesus was presenting what will happen when he comes again.
He will gather all people to him and separate them to either reward or condemnation.

Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Restoration of all things complete.

Douggg · Jul 22, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
You have Him descending from heaven twice in the future.

Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

When Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives, the Jews will flee thru a valley like their ancestors did in the day of Uzziah king of Judah.

Why are they not raptured - if the rapture takes place at Jesus's Second Coming, His return to earth?

Zechariah said at the time of escape through the valley, the Lord his God comes with his saints.

The reason they are not raptured is because the Jews, although believers in Jesus at that time, because the rapture will have happened many years before, those Jews will not have yet become Christians at the time of the rapture.

The rapture does not happen post-trib.

Spiritual Jew · Jul 23, 2021

Douggg said:
Zechariah 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

When Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives, the Jews will flee thru a valley like their ancestors did in the day of Uzziah king of Judah.

Why are they not raptured - if the rapture takes place at Jesus's Second Coming, His return to earth?

Zechariah said at the time of escape through the valley, the Lord his God comes with his saints.

The reason they are not raptured is because the Jews, although believers in Jesus at that time, because the rapture will have happened many years before, those Jews will not have yet become Christians at the time of the rapture.

The rapture does not happen post-trib.

Your problem is that you do not allow the New Testament to illuminate the Old Testament for you. The New Testament clarifies and expands on the Old Testament prophecies, but you don't allow it to do that, so you end up misapplying Old Testament prophecies to the wrong time periods.

You acknowledged that 2 Thess 1:7-10 happens post-trib. I showed how that passage is the same event as 1 Thess 4:14-5:6. You did nothing to show how those events could be different. They both depict the coming of Christ, a gathering of believers to Christ and the destruction of Christ's enemies all in one event.

Also, the book of Revelation only records one future time when Jesus will descend from heaven. Where is your any time pre-great trib rapture in the book Revelation? It's not there. Surely, if such a thing was going to happen it would have been written about in the book of Revelation. But, it's not.

Jesus also knew nothing about an any time pre-great trib rapture as He said nothing about it. If there was such a thing, He would have certainly mentioned it in the Olivet Discourse, but He did not. He referred to His second coming several times in the Olivet Discourse and He very specifically said that it would occur "after the tribulation of those days".

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

You need to interpret Old Testament prophecies in such a way that agrees with what the New Testament reveals about them instead of contradicting the New Testament, but you don't do that.

Marilyn C · Jul 23, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
Not even close Marilyn.
What of the goats that are thrown into eternal fire at the time of his second coming in Matt 25?

If the sheep continue for another thousand years , then who are they ruling over.? Please try to answer this Marilyn.

Matt 25
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

Then when Jesus comes a second time to separate ... he will say this...,

34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

What you are proposing is clearly untenable.

Hi jeff,

The `sheep,` nations are from across the world. Israel will be ruling over them. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)
The `goats` will eventually go to the lake of fire. (Rev. 15: 20)

Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Jul 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
We can see that it's everyone at the same time being judged from passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. We need to interpret scripture with scripture whenever possible, and I don't believe you're doing that in this case.

Matthew 13 concerns the parables that Jesus told Israel, confirming the promises of God to them. (Rom. 15: 8)
Matt. 25: 31 - 46 concerns the nations NOT the Body of Christ which is called out of Israel and the nations.

Marilyn C · Jul 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Do two passages need to have all the same details in order to speak of the same event? Of course not. If one of them specifically talked about Him coming without His angels and one talked about Him coming with His angels then we could safely conclude they were different events. But, that is not the case. Instead, it's just a case of one passage containing certain details about His second coming and another passage containing different details about it. But, it's still the same event. At that event, His angels will gather His people to meet Him "in the air".

Why would you not see Him coming "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thess 1:10) as being the same event as Him coming to meet His saints "in the air" and then forever being with Him? I believe only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that obvious connection.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)

I think it is best to believe what Jesus said.

Marilyn C · Jul 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
What do you mean? Eternal life in God's kingdom is the inheritance. What believer won't inherit that?

Where is that idea even hinted at in Matthew 25:31-46? It speaks of them inheriting "eternal life" in the kingdom, which is an eternal inheritance. You're talking about a temporal inheritance.

It does not say anything there about 3 realms. You are adding that idea to the text. No, it specifically refers to "the kingdom of their FATHER". Yes, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean we can't differentiate between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Paul wrote that Jesus, the Son, will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:24). So, if Paul can differentiate between the Son and the Father, why can't you? We will all be in the same kingdom in the same place. Why would everyone be separated into 3 realms, anyway? That makes no sense. We're all together as one by the blood of Christ.

Yes in God`s great kingdom, but what part - highest heaven? the city? the New earth?

Why you say in 3 realms? Because Christ made those realms (Col. 1: 16) and their rulership, thus He decides who will rule in those reams under Him.

jeffweedaman · Jul 23, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Hi jeff,

The `sheep,` nations are from across the world. Israel will be ruling over them. (Micah 4: 1 - 3)
The `goats` will eventually go to the lake of fire. (Rev. 15: 20)

Marilyn.

Hello.
There is no such thing as sheep nations .
He gathers ALL nations and separates the sheep from all the nations.

Jn 10

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

Edit
Israel is not a sheep nation.
Only some of them are and they listen to Jesus voice. They are a Holy nation in Christ along with believing people from all other nations. One flock.

Jn 10
24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.

Marilyn C · Jul 23, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
Hello.
Those is no such thing as sheep nations .
He gathers ALL nations and separates the sheep from all the nations.

Jn 10

I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

The symbol of the `sheep` is used in relation to the context.

John 10 is referring to the Jews and Gentiles who will all be God`s children in God`s great kingdom.

Matt. 25: 31 - 46 is referring to the Gentile nations and the separating of those who looked after `my brethren` the Jews in the tribulation. (Matt. 25: 40)

jeffweedaman · Jul 23, 2021

Marilyn C said:
The symbol of the `sheep` is used in relation to the context.

John 10 is referring to the Jews and Gentiles who will all be God`s children in God`s great kingdom.

Matt. 25: 31 - 46 is referring to the Gentile nations and the separating of those who looked after `my brethren` the Jews in the tribulation. (Matt. 25: 40)

I have edited my previous post as you were replying.

God`s Prophetic Days.

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Amillennialist

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