God`s Prophetic Days.

Marilyn C said:

Hi jeff,

Interesting discussion. Let`s look at Galatians.

`That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the SPIRIT through faith.` (Gal: 3: 14)

We both agree that all are saved through Christ. However not all have the same inheritance. We are all children of God in His great Kingdom, however we (OT & B/C) are in different parts of the kingdom, different inheritances.

Marilyn.

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That is simply not taught in scripture. All believers from all-time will inherit "eternal life" (Matt 25:46) in "the kingdom prepared...from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34), as portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. That kingdom will be known as "the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:43) because it will be delivered to the Father by Jesus when He comes (1 Corinthians 15:22-24).

Marilyn C said:

Yes I agree jeff. However the restoring `all things` starts in the angelic realm where visible rulership is needed after Lucifer was cast out. The Godhead is Spirit and beyond the created order, however the Father will set His Son, visibly on Mount Zion in the angelic realm. (Ps. 2: 6, Heb. 12: 22)

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Jesus is already seated in the Heavenly realm having all authority, and so are we already seated there because of his authority. Ephesians is a must read regarding this.


Matt 28
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. 18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


satan and his principalities do not qualify for any part in Gods restoration.
Restoration is only for the repentant.

Marilyn C said:

Now In Matt. 25: 31 - 36 that kingdom/rule of God is in the millennium. That is the `sheep and goats` judgment. The `sheep` are left on the earth which will go on for another thousand years.

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Not even close Marilyn.
What of the goats that are thrown into eternal fire at the time of his second coming in Matt 25?

If the sheep continue for another thousand years , then who are they ruling over.? Please try to answer this Marilyn.

Matt 25
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.


Then when Jesus comes a second time to separate ... he will say this...,



34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

What you are proposing is clearly untenable.

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you agree? If so, then since you acknowledged that 2 Thess 1:7-10, happens after the trib, then you should acknowledge that 1 Thess 4:14-17 happens after the trib as well since they are both about the same event.

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2Thessalonians1:7-10 is Jesus's return to end the great tribulation, agreed. Returning with the armies of heaven, who are the mighty angels. Surrounded in the glory of his saints.

The rapture/resurrection of them in Christ of 1Thessalonians4:14-17 takes place before the great tribulation begins near the middle of the 7 years. The rapture/resurrection may happen before the 70th week begins, or after it begins, but before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The two most important words to Christians, past, present, future in all these chapters is "in Christ".

jeffweedaman said:

Not even close Marilyn.
What of the goats that are thrown into eternal fire at the time of his second coming in Matt 25?

If the sheep continue for another thousand years , then who are they ruling over.? Please try to answer this Marilyn.

Matt 25
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.


Then when Jesus comes a second time to separate ... he will say this...,



34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

What you are proposing is clearly untenable.

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Jeff, what Jesus was presenting were sayings that are to make people think about their behavior, care, and mercy to others. And that some day they would stand before him and either enter the Kingdom of God, or not.

That they were "sayings" is in Matthew 26:1...

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,

Marilyn C said:

Sorry SJ, I thought I had addressed that point. Maybe I was clear.

Isa. 45: 22 - 24. `Every knee shall bow....`
Rom. 14: 10 - 12. `every knee shall bow...`

Indeed we agree that every knee shall bow. However it does not say WHEN. Some like us bow now and then go to the `bema` reward seat of Christ; Israel will bow when they see Him when He reveals Himself to them & others will go to the Great White Throne Judgment.

That is `everyone.`

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We can see that it's everyone at the same time being judged from passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. We need to interpret scripture with scripture whenever possible, and I don't believe you're doing that in this case.

Marilyn C said:

I don`t believe they are the same event.

1. 1 Thess. 4: 14. Here we see the Lord coming with those who have died and are `asleep` in Christ.

2. 2 Thess. 1: 7. Here we see the Lord coming with His mighty angels.

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Do two passages need to have all the same details in order to speak of the same event? Of course not. If one of them specifically talked about Him coming without His angels and one talked about Him coming with His angels then we could safely conclude they were different events. But, that is not the case. Instead, it's just a case of one passage containing certain details about His second coming and another passage containing different details about it. But, it's still the same event. At that event, His angels will gather His people to meet Him "in the air".

Why would you not see Him coming "to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" (2 Thess 1:10) as being the same event as Him coming to meet His saints "in the air" and then forever being with Him? I believe only doctrinal bias could keep someone from seeing that obvious connection.

Marilyn C said:

Yes I agree that all believers will receive eternal life. However not all have been promised the same inheritance.

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What do you mean? Eternal life in God's kingdom is the inheritance. What believer won't inherit that?

Now In Matt. 25: 31 - 36 that kingdom/rule of God is in the millennium.

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Where is that idea even hinted at in Matthew 25:31-46? It speaks of them inheriting "eternal life" in the kingdom, which is an eternal inheritance. You're talking about a temporal inheritance.

Matt. 13: 43, is comparing those of their father the devil, (sons of the wicked one) and those of father God.

Yes the Lord delivers up the kingdom/rule in all realms to GOD. And God is Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Godhead will be over all of their great kingdom which has 3 realms. And in each realm there is rulership under Christ and overall is God, (the trinity).

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It does not say anything there about 3 realms. You are adding that idea to the text. No, it specifically refers to "the kingdom of their FATHER". Yes, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that doesn't mean we can't differentiate between Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Paul wrote that Jesus, the Son, will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:24). So, if Paul can differentiate between the Son and the Father, why can't you? We will all be in the same kingdom in the same place. Why would everyone be separated into 3 realms, anyway? That makes no sense. We're all together as one by the blood of Christ.

Douggg said:

2Thessalonians1:7-10 is Jesus's return to end the great tribulation, agreed. Returning with the armies of heaven, who are the mighty angels. Surrounded in the glory of his saints.

The rapture/resurrection of them in Christ of 1Thessalonians4:14-17 takes place before the great tribulation begins near the middle of the 7 years. The rapture/resurrection may happen before the 70th week begins, or after it begins, but before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

The two most important words to Christians, past, present, future in all these chapters is "in Christ".

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You made a bunch of statements here without doing anything to back them up. Did you think this was going to be convincing to anyone?

If you could set your doctrine aside for a minute and pretend that you weren't already set in your beliefs, and you then read 2 Thess 1:10 where it says "He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe", can you honestly tell me it wouldn't bring to mind the gathering of believers to meet Christ "in the air"?

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

The following passage is describing the same event as the passage above only in reverse order (it talks about what happens to believers first, followed by what will happen to unbelievers instead of the other way around):

1 Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

It's quite clear that 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 are speaking of the same event. Both speaks of the coming of Christ (there isn't more than one future coming of Christ) and both speak of believers being gathered to Christ while unbelievers are destroyed when Christ takes His vengeance on them.

Spiritual Jew said:

It's quite clear that 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 1 Thess 4:14-5:6 are speaking of the same event. Both speaks of the coming of Christ (there isn't more than one future coming of Christ) and both speak of believers being gathered to Christ while unbelievers are destroyed when Christ takes His vengeance on them.

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No, they are not the same event.

2Thessalonians1:7-10 is Jesus's return with his saints in their glorified bodies - coming from heaven, having been taken there in the rapture/resurrection event earlier before the great tribulation begins.

There will be them here on earth who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation, who are the ones - " and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

Among them will be the Jews who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation.

Douggg said:

No, they are not the same event.

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Yes, those passages are clearly speaking of the same event. They both speak of the future coming of Christ, of which there is only one. They both speak of believers being gathered to the Lord. They both are speaking of destruction coming down on Christ's enemies. How is it possible that they are not the same event? If those aren't the same event then how can we ever relate any two passages together as speaking of the same event? It would be impossible.

2Thessa lonians1:7-10 is Jesus's return with his saints in their glorified bodies - coming from heaven, having been taken there in the rapture/resurrection event earlier before the great tribulation begins.

There will be them here on earth who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation, who are the ones - " and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day."

Among them will be the Jews who turn to Jesus during the great tribulation.

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Where are you getting the idea that the saints who come with Jesus from heaven at His return have their glorified bodies yet? There is no scripture which teaches such a thing. Look at what Paul wrote here:

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Here refers to this event again here:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Would you agree that those who come with Jesus from heaven in 1 Thess 4:14 would not have their glorified bodies yet? This shows that your claim that He returns with His saints in their glorified bodies after the great tribulation is false. When Jesus returns with His saints, they will not yet have their glorified bodies as you are claiming. He will return with the souls of the saints who are in heaven and who will then be united with their changed, glorified bodies. Scripture does not ever teach that He returns with saints who already have their glorified bodies. Instead, it teaches that they will be changed and then have glorified bodies when He returns.

You do believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now, don't you? When Jesus comes, you don't think He would leave the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven, do you?

Spiritual Jew said:

Where are you getting the idea that the saints who come with Jesus from heaven at His return have their glorified bodies yet?

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Because the dead in Christ in the resurrection/rapture event will be raised incorruptible. 1Corinthians15:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

Furthermore, you cannot be a spiritual Jew because you do not have your incorruptible body...

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Spiritual Jew said:

You do believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now, don't you? When Jesus comes, you don't think He would leave the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven, do you?

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At present because the rapture/resurrection has not happen yet.

Douggg said:

Because the dead in Christ in the resurrection/rapture event will be raised incorruptible. 1Corinthians15:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

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Yes, that happens at His second coming after the tribulation. Scripture does not teach that He will be coming twice in the future.

What about those who would be saved and die after that (if the time of tribulation and the thousand years happen afterwards as you believe)? Will they be raised incorruptible? If so, where does scripture mention that?

Furthermore, you cannot be a spiritual Jew because you do not have your incorruptible body...

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

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That's funny. That verse does not say that at all. You're coming across as if you are suggesting that someone can't be spiritual without a spiritual body, which we all know isn't the case.

Spiritual Jew said:

1 Thess 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Here refers to this event again here:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Would you agree that those who come with Jesus from heaven in 1 Thess 4:14 would not have their glorified bodies yet? This shows that your claim that He returns with His saints in their glorified bodies after the great tribulation is false.

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1Thessonians4:14 is Jesus bringing the souls of the dead in Christ to be re-united, at the time of the resurrection, with their raised incorruptible glorified bodies.

The timing is between right now and the day the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.