God`s Prophetic Days.

Marilyn C

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Why use two different words ? ......two different meanings

Hi Tim,

It was the same words in the context.

`...and they did not know until the flood came and `took` them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be `taken` and the other left.` (Matt. 24: 39 & 40)

Marilyn.
 
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Berean Tim

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Hi Tim,

It was the same words in the context.

`...and they did not know until the flood came and `took` them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. Then two men will be in the field: one will be `taken` and the other left.` (Matt. 24: 39 & 40)

Marilyn.
No it's different words. One group was "taken" in the flood. The other was received
THE OLIVET DISCOURSE PROBLEM - 7 Pretrib Problems and the Prewrath Rapture

This Movie is 2hours long but is broken uo in 7 parts. I think you need this one now
 
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Marilyn C

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Timtofly

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Hi Tim,

So where does it say that the Church comes down in the New Jerusalem?

And where does it say we go up at the 6th seal?

Marilyn.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Is the church not the tabernacle of God? The tabernacle was the church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37-38

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The same church mentioned in Revelation 7:9

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The temple in heaven is Paradise. On the Cross God made this promise:

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise was created as the Garden given to Adam and all his offspring. When Adam disobeyed, he and his fallen offspring were banned from Paradise. God opened up Paradise with the Cross. Abraham's bosom left sheol and the church entered Paradise, the temple, tabernacle, church of the Lord God. Hebrews 11:13-16

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God is not saying they still wait for the promise. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom, that was not Paradise. The Cross was that perfect way that opened Paradise for all.

Paradise was the Garden that became a city. The firstfruits happened at the Cross. Many enter Paradise daily since the Cross. These are under the alter. Still the same symbolism as the church, tabernacle, temple. The ascension of Christ completed the process of the blood sprinkled on the Alter in Paradise.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The church is the redeemed of Adam's descendants. The church belongs in Paradise. The majority of the church is currently in Paradise. Revelation 21:2-3 completes God's plan.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

The voice (word of God) once walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. The next reality brings God down, in the New Jerusalem, with all of Adam's family who of their own free will chose to be with God.
 
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Marilyn C

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3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Is the church not the tabernacle of God? The tabernacle was the church in the wilderness.

Acts 7:37-38

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The same church mentioned in Revelation 7:9

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

The temple in heaven is Paradise. On the Cross God made this promise:

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Paradise was created as the Garden given to Adam and all his offspring. When Adam disobeyed, he and his fallen offspring were banned from Paradise. God opened up Paradise with the Cross. Abraham's bosom left sheol and the church entered Paradise, the temple, tabernacle, church of the Lord God. Hebrews 11:13-16

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

God is not saying they still wait for the promise. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom, that was not Paradise. The Cross was that perfect way that opened Paradise for all.

Paradise was the Garden that became a city. The firstfruits happened at the Cross. Many enter Paradise daily since the Cross. These are under the alter. Still the same symbolism as the church, tabernacle, temple. The ascension of Christ completed the process of the blood sprinkled on the Alter in Paradise.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

The church is the redeemed of Adam's descendants. The church belongs in Paradise. The majority of the church is currently in Paradise. Revelation 21:2-3 completes God's plan.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

The voice (word of God) once walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve. The next reality brings God down, in the New Jerusalem, with all of Adam's family who of their own free will chose to be with God.

Hi Tim,

The ekklesia, called out ones, in the wilderness was Israel.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven FROM God. God does not `move.` His throne is everlasting and in the highest. He is Spirit and thus is also everywhere, but His seat of authority and power is over all.

Now the Body of Christ has never been promised the city, only the OT saints were. (Heb. 11) We have been promised `something better,` a great dominion, on Christ`s throne is the highest. (Rev. 3: 21)

Marilyn.
 
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Timtofly

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Hi Tim,

I agree that the Lord comes to Jerusalem to set up His rulership through Israel. God`s word tells us that the Lord appoints a man named David, (not OT David) and he is human and has sons. (Ex. 37: 24, 46: 16 - 18)

I also agree that the Lord will not co-reign with Satan.

Where do you read that the Lord destroys the rest of Adam`s flesh?

Where do you read that the Lord remains on earth during the 1000 years?

Marilyn.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

That is without the 42 months.

The following is the end of the 42 months:

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The winepress is the end of the vineyard. The vineyard is the time of sin given to all of Adam's descendants.

The Millennium is not the redemption of mankind. The Millennium is the Lord's Day set apart and holy unto God. It is the will of God as originally intended without sin and Satan present to distract Adam's offspring.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi Jeff,

You ask -

It is clear that we are still present on earth as the day of the Lord does not overtake us. The day of the Lord can only overtake us if we are still here yes.?

Actually it wont overtake us for we will see it coming.
Marilyn.

Yes that is what I am saying. We see it coming because we are still present on the earth when that day comes.
So we are not removed before the DOTL comes taking vengeance , but are Glorified in him on that day as 2 Thess 1: 9 and 10 state...,

. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
 
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Marilyn C

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Yes that is what I am saying. We see it coming because we are still present on the earth when that day comes.
So we are not removed before the DOTL comes taking vengeance , but are Glorified in him on that day as 2 Thess 1: 9 and 10 state...,

. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

Hi jeff,

Yes I can see what you are saying. However the Body of Christ can be in the third heaven when that happens. So to find out which, earth/heaven we need more scriptures.

Do you know scriptures that say we are on the earth during the trib?

Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi jeff,

Yes I can see what you are saying. However the Body of Christ can be in the third heaven when that happens. So to find out which, earth/heaven we need more scriptures.

Do you know scriptures that say we are on the earth during the trib?

Marilyn.

Good Morning.
Jesus did say that his coming would be after the GT.

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I am not aware of Jesus teaching about another appearing. There appears to be one that involves all who have believed, the Apostles included.

2Tim
4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


2Thess1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 14
Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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PROPHETIC CALENDAR



A. THE DAY OF CHRIST.

This relates, I believe, solely to the Body of Christ, & its removal from the earth. Paul is the only one who mentions this day and he is distinctly the Apostle to the Body of Christ.



`….so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.` (1 Cor. 1:7 & 8)



`…being confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ.` (Phil. 1: 6)



1. Gathering together unto Him.

a) The Lord Himself shall descend. (1 Thess. 4: 16)

b) The Body of Christ `caught up` to Him. (1 Thess. 4: 16 – 17, Eph. 5: 27)



2. The Judgment Seat of Christ.

a) Every Christian examined. (1 Cor. 4: 5, 2 Cor. 5: 10, Rom. 14: 10 – 12)

b) Rewards or Loss. (1 Cor. 3:11 – 15, 2 Jn. 8)

c) Crowns allocated. (1 Cor. 9: 25, 2 Tim. 4: 8, James 1: 12)



3. Restitution of All Things.

Commencement. (Acts 3: 21)





This is the first part of what I see as God`s prophetic calendar, so now what are your thoughts on this section.
You believe all these scriptures relate to a pre-trib rapture of the Body of Christ, right? The problem is that you see the judgment seat of Christ as only pertaining to believers. That is not the case. Unbelievers will have to appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves as well. Both believers and unbelievers will be judged at the same time, as can be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

The following passage refers to both believers and unbelievers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The way we can determine that Paul was talking about all people, and not just believers, standing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account is by looking at the Old Testament scripture which he referenced.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that the ones who will bow their knees before Him and confess include "all that are incensed against him". They will bow their knees before the judgment seat of Christ in shame on the day of judgment. Scripture teaches that there is only one day of judgment, not multiple days of judgment as you believe.

The day of Christ, the day of the Lord and the day of God are all references to the same day. The terms "the day of the Lord" and "the day of God" are even used interchangeably in 2 Peter 3:10-12 in relation to the day Christ returns. That day is referred to as the day of Christ in relation to the day Christ returns in other scripture such as 2 Thess 2:2 and Philippians 1:6,10.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi jeff,

Yes I can see what you are saying. However the Body of Christ can be in the third heaven when that happens. So to find out which, earth/heaven we need more scriptures.

Do you know scriptures that say we are on the earth during the trib?

Marilyn.
It seems like you just completely dismissed what Jeff was saying without really thinking about it. Let's look at that passage again:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When do you believe what is described here will occur in relation to "the trib"? It talks about Christ "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". That will clearly happen after "the trib", right? As is portrayed in passages like Revelation 19:11-21 as well.

Now, notice verse 10 of this passage. When else will Christ "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except on the day of the rapture? Surely, the day that His saints are gathered to meet Him "in the air" is the day He will "come to be glorified in his saints", right? So, you should be able to see that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is speaking of an event that occurs AFTER "the trib" and not before.
 
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Marilyn C

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Good Morning.
Jesus did say that his coming would be after the GT.

Matt 24
29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I am not aware of Jesus teaching about another appearing. There appears to be one that involves all who have believed, the Apostles included.

2Tim
4 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: 2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


2Thess1
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

John 14
Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way where I am going.” 5 Thomas *said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, how do we know the way?” 6 Jesus *said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Good morning to you, too jeff.

Now had you realised that Matthew was written about Christ the King. He came to His own first to confirm the promises made by God to them.

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.`(Rom. 15: 8)

And we also know that the revelation of the Body of Christ was given much later to the Apostle Paul.
Thus Matt. 24 is NOT about us, but for us to read and learn of God`s promises to Israel.


Then when the Lord ascended to the Father`s right hand He was made Head of the Body of Christ. As such the Lord revealed further revelation to His Body, and that is the gathering together when the Body is mature, to take it to its eternal setting in glory.

The `dwelling places` spoken about in John are for the 12 disciples - the city, (Matt. 19: 28, Rev. 21: 14), while the Body of Christ will be on Christ`s throne in glory, (Rev. 3: 21).

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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You believe all these scriptures relate to a pre-trib rapture of the Body of Christ, right? The problem is that you see the judgment seat of Christ as only pertaining to believers. That is not the case. Unbelievers will have to appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves as well. Both believers and unbelievers will be judged at the same time, as can be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

The following passage refers to both believers and unbelievers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Hi Spiritual Jew,

Perhaps if we look at the Greek words and meaning it will become clear to us.

The (judgment) seat of Christ. `Seat` is Gk. `bema` meaning a foot-breath, rostrum, for giving out of rewards. The word `judgment` is not there, just the word `seat.`

The great White Throne Judgment. `Judgment` is Gk, `krisis` meaning justice, divine law, accusation, condemnation, damnation, decision for and against.

So we can see that in Rom. 14: 10 Paul is talking about `we (B/C) shall stand` (at the bema seat) while `every knee` shall bow to the Lord. All give an account but the unsaved are NOT at the bema seat.

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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It seems like you just completely dismissed what Jeff was saying without really thinking about it. Let's look at that passage again:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

When do you believe what is described here will occur in relation to "the trib"? It talks about Christ "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". That will clearly happen after "the trib", right? As is portrayed in passages like Revelation 19:11-21 as well.

Now, notice verse 10 of this passage. When else will Christ "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except on the day of the rapture? Surely, the day that His saints are gathered to meet Him "in the air" is the day He will "come to be glorified in his saints", right? So, you should be able to see that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is speaking of an event that occurs AFTER "the trib" and not before.

Hi SJ,

I was merely showing that the scripture does not say we are ON the earth but could be, (as I believe) in heaven. Yes, I agree that the events take place after the trib.

To support your belief you would need other scriptures to clarify where the Body of Christ is - ON earth or IN heaven.

Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Good morning to you, too jeff.

Now had you realised that Matthew was written about Christ the King. He came to His own first to confirm the promises made by God to them.

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.`(Rom. 15: 8)

Abraham , concerning the promises , came through the seed which was Jesus . He would bless and embrace many nations as heirs according to all the promises regarding restoration of man. He had other sheep to bring through the power of his own blood.


[And we also know that the revelation of the Body of Christ was given much later to the Apostle Paul.]

Nonsense. God so loved the whole world that he gave his Son. Through his blood Gentiles are heirs along with the promises given to Abraham...who wasnt even an Israelite.


Gal 3
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Eph 3

to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,



Gal 3
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.


Eph 2
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,
 
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Marilyn C

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Abraham , concerning the promises , came through the seed which was Jesus . He would bless and embrace many nations as heirs according to all the promises regarding restoration of man. He had other sheep to bring through the power of his own blood.


[And we also know that the revelation of the Body of Christ was given much later to the Apostle Paul.]

Nonsense. God so loved the whole world that he gave his Son. Through his blood Gentiles are heirs along with the promises given to Abraham...who wasnt even an Israelite.


Gal 3
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

Eph 3

to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,



Gal 3
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ.


Eph 2
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross,

Hi jeff,

Interesting discussion. Let`s look at Galatians.

`That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the SPIRIT through faith.` (Gal: 3: 14)

We both agree that all are saved through Christ. However not all have the same inheritance. We are all children of God in His great Kingdom, however we (OT & B/C) are in different parts of the kingdom, different inheritances.

Marilyn.
 
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jeffweedaman

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Hi jeff,

Interesting discussion. Let`s look at Galatians.

`That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the SPIRIT through faith.` (Gal: 3: 14)

We both agree that all are saved through Christ. However not all have the same inheritance. We are all children of God in His great Kingdom, however we (OT & B/C) are in different parts of the kingdom, different inheritances.

Marilyn.

What about Eph 2?

Isnt the Lord restoring all things to the way they were at the foundation of the world?
There was no Jew or Greek, just man made in Gods image and having the same flesh.
 
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Timtofly

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You believe all these scriptures relate to a pre-trib rapture of the Body of Christ, right? The problem is that you see the judgment seat of Christ as only pertaining to believers. That is not the case. Unbelievers will have to appear before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account of themselves as well. Both believers and unbelievers will be judged at the same time, as can be clearly seen in passages like Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46.

The following passage refers to both believers and unbelievers appearing before the judgment seat of Christ.

Romans 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

The way we can determine that Paul was talking about all people, and not just believers, standing before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account is by looking at the Old Testament scripture which he referenced.

Isaiah 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. 24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.

Notice that the ones who will bow their knees before Him and confess include "all that are incensed against him". They will bow their knees before the judgment seat of Christ in shame on the day of judgment. Scripture teaches that there is only one day of judgment, not multiple days of judgment as you believe.

The day of Christ, the day of the Lord and the day of God are all references to the same day. The terms "the day of the Lord" and "the day of God" are even used interchangeably in 2 Peter 3:10-12 in relation to the day Christ returns. That day is referred to as the day of Christ in relation to the day Christ returns in other scripture such as 2 Thess 2:2 and Philippians 1:6,10.
The throne the Lord God sits on is not the Judgment seat of Christ.

The wording of Paul is distinct even when comparing between Jesus and Lord. All the redeemed will stand, but not necessarily at the same time. Then Paul references that every knee will bow before the Lord God, at a certain event.

Your event includes the wicked into the redeemed. Paul is saying the judgment seat of Christ is the time those redeemed are judged, and that covers them bowing. Paul is including the redeemed in Christ as part of the total group. Paul is not including the total group into the judgment seat of Christ. Not all are redeemed universally to be at the judgment seat of Christ. It is of Christ, because "of Christ" are those redeemed.

Standing before the throne of God, the Lord God is what Isaiah is talking about.

I would interpret it as all must stand before God, but not all will stand before the Judgment seat of Christ. Not all are in Christ. I would not lump the whole of humanity into the judgment seat of Christ. Those at the judgment seat of Christ are still bowing to God, through the Atonement. Nor would those in Christ be lumped in with all humanity at the GWT event.

To interpret it your way, to me, Paul should have said all will stand at the judgment seat of Christ on the same day as all of humanity is judged by God Himself.

The Cross was the judgment seat of Christ. That is where I was judged, being in Christ, but also I see this as an ongoing judgment that is completed when a soul leaves this corruptible body and immediately enters the permanent incorruptible one. Most here think a soul is naked before God, until a set judgment. The Cross already happened and Christ is already sitting. No period of waiting for those in Christ.

I would also point out, if you have not already bowed the knee to God.....waiting until the GWT is when all are forced to bow the knee, whether they want to or not.

I think that Isaiah is including the judgment seat of Christ as the righteousness of the Cross. Isaiah is not declaring that all are judged at the same time either. Even in physical life sometimes the unrighteous are judged subconsciously, and they know they are not righteous by themselves. They still continue in their sins, because that is what the flesh desires. Only John explicitly defines, at the end of reality, only God's throne is left, and all the dead stand before it as dead. Why any one places those in Christ as being dead, does not make sense. Some even want all those dead to be considered alive and in Christ. I do not see that as the case.

It still goes back to the words of Jesus, "The hour is coming, and the hour already is." If none of this is physical, then why lump it into one physical singular event?

God coming to earth at the Second Coming is physical and in judgment. All will see the throne. That is still not the GWT judgment. Living people will be attempting to hide from God when the Lamb comes at the Second Coming. The GWT in contrast are the dead, not those physically alive, prior to being dead. Even at Armageddon, the flesh is given to the birds, not standing as the dead before the throne, after reality has passed away.

At the Second Coming there is hiding from God. At the GWT all dead are forced to "bend their knees". No one can hide at that point. They are dead, and no place to hide.

Here is the judgment seat of Christ: Revelation 6:9-11

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season.

Souls under the alter can only be symbolic of those covered by the Atonement. The Cross represented the judgment of the alter act of the Lamb of God. Since the theme set forth is Christ as the Lamb. Notice no thrones mentioned at all. Even the judgment seat of Christ is not just a "cold throne", but the whole act of Atonement including the Cross and the alter. Since no throne is mentioned, this cannot be the same event as Revelation 20:4. Those under the alter, the judgment seat of Christ, are awarded at the 5th Seal. They are given robes of white. These are not literal physical garments. This can only be symbolic of those in Paradise and the act of being glorified. The robes of white is the putting on of our spirit. The spirit that has always been separated from the soul and body when Adam died the day he disobeyed God and ate.

That is how I picture the Judgment seat of Christ. Is there a particular time, awards are handed out? I don't know. I would definitely not lump it in at the GWT. Those verses only mention the dead. My soul is going to get a permanent incorruptible body. I do not plan on standing before God, dead.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Hi Spiritual Jew,

Perhaps if we look at the Greek words and meaning it will become clear to us.

The (judgment) seat of Christ. `Seat` is Gk. `bema` meaning a foot-breath, rostrum, for giving out of rewards. The word `judgment` is not there, just the word `seat.`

The great White Throne Judgment. `Judgment` is Gk, `krisis` meaning justice, divine law, accusation, condemnation, damnation, decision for and against.

So we can see that in Rom. 14: 10 Paul is talking about `we (B/C) shall stand` (at the bema seat) while `every knee` shall bow to the Lord. All give an account but the unsaved are NOT at the bema seat.

Marilyn.
I believe it was already clear to me. I think you are making things unclear. Why did you not respond to the point I made about using Isaiah 45:22-24 to help interpret Romans 14:10-12 since Paul referenced that passage? This is a trend with you. You expect me to address your points while you don't address mine.
 
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Hi SJ,

I was merely showing that the scripture does not say we are ON the earth but could be, (as I believe) in heaven. Yes, I agree that the events take place after the trib.
If you agree that 2 Thess 1:7-10 happens after the trib then why are you pre-trib? In my post I pointed out that 2 Thess 1:10 correlates with 1 Thess 4:14-17.

I think it's quite clear that this coming of Christ:

2 Thess 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Is the same event as this coming of Christ:

1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Do you agree? If so, then since you acknowledged that 2 Thess 1:7-10, happens after the trib, then you should acknowledge that 1 Thess 4:14-17 happens after the trib as well since they are both about the same event.
 
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