- May 17, 2021
- 1,121
- 387
- 38
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Divorced
Upvote
0
Limited Atonement: God's Power to Save
- Thread starter Humble_Disciple
- Start date
- May 17, 2021
- 1,121
- 387
- 38
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Divorced
If limited atonement, unconditional election, and other Calvinist doctrines make you think less of God, don't believe them. Your love for God matters more than the rightness of your theology.
1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
My only hope is that you won't become prejudiced against Calvinists as somehow being Bible-rejecting heretics.
1 Corinthians 8:2-3
Anyone who claims to know all the answers doesn’t really know very much. But the person who loves God is the one whom God recognizes.
My only hope is that you won't become prejudiced against Calvinists as somehow being Bible-rejecting heretics.
Upvote
0
- May 17, 2021
- 1,121
- 387
- 38
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Divorced
What limited atonement means is that not a drop of Jesus' blood was wasted, that not an iota of His suffering was endured in vain, because it will definitely save everyone it was intended to save.
Not potentially, but definitely.
It might seem like a harsh belief, but limited atonement gives the most assurance for believers that they will be saved and it gives Jesus the most glory, that none of His suffering was endured in vain.
Not potentially, but definitely.
It might seem like a harsh belief, but limited atonement gives the most assurance for believers that they will be saved and it gives Jesus the most glory, that none of His suffering was endured in vain.
Upvote
0
- May 17, 2021
- 1,121
- 387
- 38
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Divorced
John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.
When John 12:32 is interpreted as referring to all people without exception, rather than all kinds of people in every ethnic group and station of life, the conclusion is universalism, which is an unbiblical teaching.
The Greek word translated as “draw” is “helko,” which means “to drag.” John 12:32 must be read in context of John 6:44, which promises that all who are drawn to Jesus will inherit the resurrection unto life on the last day:
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, then so many wouldn’t have turned away:
John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, He wouldn’t have said this to the Pharisees:
John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 are interpreted to mean that God intends to save all people without exception, but they must be read in context of other passages of John’s writings:
John 11
51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
John 11:52 says that Jesus died, not for all people without exception, but for “the children of God who were scattered abroad,” just as Jesus says in His priestly prayer of John 17:9 that He wasn’t praying for the whole world, but to those given to Him by the Father for salvation.
If John meant the whole world without exception, then the entire world must have been following Jesus in John 12:19, rather than just a large crowd.
John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
John’s references to Jesus dying for the world’s sins includes people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, rather than every individual without exception.
Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.
When John 12:32 is interpreted as referring to all people without exception, rather than all kinds of people in every ethnic group and station of life, the conclusion is universalism, which is an unbiblical teaching.
The Greek word translated as “draw” is “helko,” which means “to drag.” John 12:32 must be read in context of John 6:44, which promises that all who are drawn to Jesus will inherit the resurrection unto life on the last day:
John 6:44
No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, then so many wouldn’t have turned away:
John 6
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
If Jesus were drawing all people to Himself without exception, He wouldn’t have said this to the Pharisees:
John 10:26
But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
John 3:16 and 1 John 2:2 are interpreted to mean that God intends to save all people without exception, but they must be read in context of other passages of John’s writings:
John 11
51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
John 17:9
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
John 11:52 says that Jesus died, not for all people without exception, but for “the children of God who were scattered abroad,” just as Jesus says in His priestly prayer of John 17:9 that He wasn’t praying for the whole world, but to those given to Him by the Father for salvation.
If John meant the whole world without exception, then the entire world must have been following Jesus in John 12:19, rather than just a large crowd.
John 12:19
The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
John’s references to Jesus dying for the world’s sins includes people from all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, rather than every individual without exception.
Revelation 7:9
After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands
Last edited:
Upvote
0
The bottom line with limited atonement is that God is unwilling to save the vast majority of mankind.
Upvote
0
I think that many Christian folks buy into it in an effort to relieve their consciences in regard to the evangelisation of lost sinners. Although they are willing to send someone else to do the task, preferably in distant countries where converts will not rock the boat in the home church, they are unwilling to engage in personal evangelism. Frequently, they will hide under the guise of spiritual gifts, claiming that they do not have the gift of evangelism and that they are, therefore, exempt from any personal engagement in the task, lest the glory go to them and not to God or that they might, perchance, lead a nonelect person to faith in Jesus Christ with the result being the eternal damnation of that soul.
Upvote
0
Cormack
“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
- Apr 21, 2020
- 1,469
- 1,407
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Single
It’s a pretty scary doctrine for many users on Christianforums.com, since the limited intent, limited extent and the limited application of the atonement under 5 point Calvinism causes them no end of doubt as to whether or not they’re the recipients of that precious sacrificial blood.
A general view of the cross of Christ outside of Calvinism doesn’t limit the atonement in the extent or in the intent. Gods intent for the gift and the extent of the gifts saving power is over all and available to all.
It’s available to everyone because the deepest depths of His love are felt for everyone.
Due to the limited intent, extent and application of the blood of Christ under 5 point Calvinism, people who are struggling with feelings of depression, loneliness, fear and doubt regarding their own salvation have more reasons to tremble and doubt.
According to the L of limited atonement God doesn’t love everyone with a salvific love, his greatest measure of love is partial and reserved only for some.
With that in mind, and with fear, doubt and loneliness in mind, limited atonement certainly is “some scary teaching,” and for many of the people who accept it to be true, it will continue to eat away at their peace until the day they leave this world.
In the case of others, believing in the L of limited atonement will prove to be a faith destroying doctrine with time.
Questioning that teaching isn’t anti Calvinist or “prejudice” anymore than debunking the Quran is Islamophobia.
The tactic of painting people who disagree with Calvinism as prejudiced is no better than calling people homophobic for disagreeing with homosexuality.
“Phobias” and “prejudice” in that nontechnical sense are used as thought killing devices.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Cormack
“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
- Apr 21, 2020
- 1,469
- 1,407
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Single
Dying for someone you love (even if they end up rejecting your loving sacrifice) isn’t wasted blood.
Every man, woman and child could reject Jesus and go into an eternity of hell and not a drop of blood would have been “wasted,” Gods shed blood is an expression of His unlimited greatness, His perfect love and willing heart to save everyone.
He’s already made a universal show of His love, people can’t make that a waste whatever they do.
Upvote
0
It’s very hypocritical how Calvinists cry because their are people that don’t believe in Calvinism, but then post gifs mocking people who don’t believe in what they believe.
Hence why they only carry a conversation w other Calvinists.
They can pat each other on the back daily, hourly and by the minute.
Pot, meet Kettle
Upvote
0
Cormack
“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
- Apr 21, 2020
- 1,469
- 1,407
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Single
Non Calvinists are guilty of “prejudice,” while Calvinists are I assume spotlessly blameless while they post belittling memes to do with the faith of others.
Go figure, let it sit here forever as a testimony against them.
Go figure, let it sit here forever as a testimony against them.
Upvote
0
Blaise N
Well-Known Member
- Jul 4, 2021
- 784
- 623
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Protestant
- Marital Status
- Single
- Politics
- US-Republican
Calvinistic theology and reformed theology scares me badly because I have OCD and I constantly doubt my salvation and according to Calvinists “if I’m one of the elect” because according to Calvinists God only loves the elect,and it scares me and would severely devastate me if I found out God doesn’t love me
Upvote
0
Hmm
Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
- Sep 27, 2019
- 4,866
- 5,027
- 34
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
Calvanism seems very well represented on this board but how big is it IRL in the US or countries other than the UK? I'm from the UK and I've never met a Calvanist, seen a Calvanist church nor even heard of TULIP before joining this forum.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Cormack
“I bet you're a real hulk on the internet...”
- Apr 21, 2020
- 1,469
- 1,407
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Baptist
- Marital Status
- Single
Could be you’ve met more Calvinists than you’re aware of. I’ve met several Calvinists (all men) who wouldn’t make their views known until we developed some stronger level of friendship.
Then they start coming out with God hardening hearts, “isn’t God in charge?” “Just check out this cool book by Charles Spurgeon,” I reply “hey cool book, but I think we’re moving too fast here, let’s have some space,” they get extremely belligerent over the phone (I kid you not,) and that’s what it’s like being friends with Calvinists.
To be fair some of the older guys are cool, maybe being a bit wide eyed crazy comes with being part of the young, restless and reformed generation.
Upvote
0
Hmm
Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
- Sep 27, 2019
- 4,866
- 5,027
- 34
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
Could be you’ve met more Calvinists than you’re aware of. I’ve met several Calvinists (all men) who wouldn’t make their views known until we developed some stronger level of friendship.
Then they start coming out with God hardening hearts, “isn’t God in charge?” “Just check out this cool book by Charles Spurgeon,” I reply “hey cool book, but I think we’re moving too fast here, let’s have some space,” they get extremely belligerent over the phone (I kid you not,) and that’s what it’s like being friends with Calvinists.
To be fair some of the older guys are cool, maybe being a bit wide eyed crazy comes with being part of the young, restless and reformed generation.
I wonder if I have entertained a Calvanist unawares then. At least I feel pretty well armoured now
Upvote
0
Hmm
Hey, I'm just this guy, you know
- Sep 27, 2019
- 4,866
- 5,027
- 34
- Country
- United Kingdom
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
I think your only solution is to categorically reject the ideas that are causing your anxiety. I've rejected them on the grounds of justice, morality and, above all, God's love for all.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
That is the problem - does God love all equally? If so, then all will be saved. Do you believe that?
Upvote
0
