Christian martyr complex vs. atheist martyr complex

dlamberth said:

We are in this life and its in this life that God can be a reality where He's needed the most. This is life where it counts the most.

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Can be a reality? He IS reality.

In the next life he will be everything, all in all. It counts no less there.

Mark Quayle said:

You seem to be getting out of the sentence, "This life is not for this life", things it does not suggest. That doesn't mean anything against this life. Nor even against living this life to the fullest nor enjoying what we can in this life.

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But it's the next life that we live for, not this one. Even when enjoying this life.
Am I correct in that?

Mark Quayle said:

Can be a reality? He IS reality.

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For you, what's that mean that God IS reality? Reality for me are things that I can reach out and touch, or smell, or even see.

In the next life he will be everything, all in all. It counts no less there.

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It's this life we are living though. Even in this life God can be seen, all in all. Which is why I don't understand the waiting for a next life when God is right here, right now.

dlamberth said:

But it's the next life that we live for, not this one. Even when enjoying this life.
Am I correct in that?

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That's one way to put it. It's more like, "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

dlamberth said:

For you, what's that mean that God IS reality? Reality for me are things that I can reach out and touch, or smell, or even see.

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CS Lewis gives a great picture of the strength of reality of the Spiritual compared to the Material, in his space trilogy. Someone sees an angel as a sort of beam of light, which if you tried to look directly at it, it was invisible, but out the corner of your eye, it stood at an angle to the ground, yet, it was more like it was vertical, and the ground was askew.

Logically, reality is whatever God says it is, since he knows all things. But all things depend on him, not just for coming into being but also for its sustenance, or remaining 'in being'. They are real, only because he is real. They are not the standard for reality.

dlamberth said:

It's this life we are living though. Even in this life God can be seen, all in all. Which is why I don't understand the waiting for a next life when God is right here, right now.

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It's this life we are aware of, at least.

The next life is more real than this vapor of existence we see now. There, we will see him as he is. Here, we live him as vessels, incomplete. There, finally complete. The 'waiting' is to see him as he is, and to be like him. It doesn't mean that we don't live him now.

Under One King said:

Jesus said that those who deny Him before men, He will deny before God. He also said that those who seek to save their life will lose it, but those who lose it for His sake will find it.
What kind of Christian would we be if we are afraid to die for the One who died for us?

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Peter denied Jesus three times in one morning, and he became the first Pope.

TLK Valentine said:

Peter denied Jesus three times in one morning, and he became the first Pope.

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He then died for Christ crucified upside down.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

He then died for Christ crucified upside down.

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Which means you can still live your life for Christ without committing suicide... at least for a while.

TLK Valentine said:

Which means you can still live your life for Christ without committing suicide... at least for a while.

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Suicide is not martyrdom.

My guess is most Christians would be like Peter, deny Christ to save themselves, but feel bad about it. We are human after all.

Now Peter sat outside in the courtyard. And a servant girl came to him, saying, “You also were with Jesus of Galilee.”
But he denied it before them all, saying, “I do not know what you are saying.”
And when he had gone out to the gateway, another girl saw him and said to those who were there, “This fellow also was with Jesus of Nazareth.”
But again he denied with an oath, “I do not know the Man!”
And a little later those who stood by came up and said to Peter, “Surely you also are one of them, for your speech betrays you.”
Then he began to [a]curse and swear, saying, “I do not know the Man!”
Immediately a rooster crowed. And Peter remembered the word of Jesus who had said to him, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny Me three times.” So he went out and wept bitterly.
Matthew 26: 69-75

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Suicide is not martyrdom.

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Depends on who you ask. The guys who strap explosives to their chests call themselves martyrs, but we call the, "suicide bombers."

In any event, if I were to serve a god, I'd think I can do more good alive than dead -- and I'd reject any "god" who demands otherwise.

TLK Valentine said:

Depends on who you ask. The guys who strap explosives to their chests call themselves martyrs, but we call the, "suicide bombers."

In any event, if I were to serve a god, I'd think I can do more good alive than dead -- and I'd reject any "god" who demands otherwise.

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One can do tremendous good while alive, but in the end, if all other options are expended and the test of loyalty is demanded then we should meet death eagerly for the ones we love. God first and foremost.

In upholding Peter's cowardice as something laudable you end up destroying integrity and moral worth. Peter in abandoning Christ is not to be held as a positive example, he is to be held in contempt. It is his repentance and life after in the effort to make up for his mistake which is to be upheld.

Is there no one or idea you would ultimately die for?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

One can do tremendous good while alive, but in the end, if all other options are expended and the test of loyalty is demanded then we should meet death eagerly for the ones we love. God first and foremost.

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Martyring myself for what I know to be very flawed images of God would not stand up to the importance of my family, whom I would give my life for.

Is there no one or idea you would ultimately die for?

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I would not give my life for any idea.
For other Human Beings...absolutely!!

dlamberth said:

Martyring myself for what I know to be very flawed images of God would not stand up to the importance of my family, whom I would give my life for.

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It's good to die for one's family. But if one cannot die for their God, then perhaps it is better they are a materialist/atheist. An animal called man doing only what his nature tells him.

dlamberth said:

I would not give my life for any idea.
For other Human Beings...absolutely!!

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I suppose I don't understand of dying for people alone and not one's integrity or ideas of life. If you are willing, in order to stay alive, sacrifice everything you believe, those ideas don't carry with them much power do they? Why then believe in anything? Why then is family such an important thing to die for? If you can get away and create a new family, isn't that better than dying for the family you currently have?

ranunculus said:

So please, Christians, in the extremely unlikely event that you are asked to deny God on pain of death, ignore the horrible advice of your youth pastor and just tell a white lie. I'm sure a worthy God will understand.

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It's a question of integrity though. I'm not sure I could deny Christ and I have great respect for Christian martyrs.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

It's good to die for one's family. But if one cannot die for their God, then perhaps it is better they are a materialist.



I suppose I don't understand of dying for people alone and not one's integrity or ideas of life. If you are willing, in order to stay alive, sacrifice everything you believe, those ideas don't carry with them much power do they?

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If your ideals are to save others then dying to save others would be dying for your ideals. I've only ever risked my life trying to and/or saving others and I would do it again.

jacknife said:

If your ideals are to save others then dying to save others would be dying for your ideals. I've only ever risked my life trying to and/or saving others and I would do it again.

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To what end would we risk ourselves for others alone? The preservation of the species?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

It's good to die for one's family. But if one cannot die for their God, then perhaps it is better they are a materialist/atheist. An animal called man doing only what his nature tells him.

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My Love of God takes shape through my family. It's with in Humanity as well as the Earth that God dwells and becomes alive for this person.

I know for a fact that my "beliefs" are just that..."beliefs". My "beliefs" are not worth dying for...but my family is.

So if I martyr myself for my beliefs, that doesn't change God or effect Him in any way, shape or form. God moves on as if nothing happened. I'd even go so far as to say that martyring for God is the ultimate narcissist trip.

I suppose I don't understand of dying for people alone and not one's integrity or ideas of life. If you are willing, in order to stay alive, sacrifice everything you believe, those ideas don't carry with them much power do they? Why then believe in anything? Why then is family such an important thing to die for? If you can get away and create a new family, isn't that better than dying for the family you currently have?

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My ideas and integrity of life is based on Love and the Sacredness of other Human Beings as well as the Earth. This is where God becomes a reality for me. These are the things worth dying for.

dlamberth said:

My Love of God takes shape through my family. It's with in Humanity as well as the Earth that God dwells and becomes alive for this person.

I know for a fact that my "beliefs" are just that..."beliefs". My "beliefs" are not worth dying for...but my family is.

So if I martyr myself for my beliefs, that doesn't change God or effect Him in any way, shape or form. God moves on as if nothing happened. I'd even go so far as to say that martyring for God is the ultimate narcissist trip.

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If a Muslim Jihadi can convince you to give up your ideas about God by demanding your life of you unless you convert to Islam, why should I or anyone else take your ideas seriously?

dlamberth said:

My ideas and integrity of life is based on Love and the Sacredness of other Human Beings as well as the Earth. This is where God becomes a reality for me. These are the things worth dying for.

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Since you are willing to give up those ideas in order to preserve your life, I think the futility of your beliefs is laid bare for all to see. If all I need to do is threaten you and you will fold like origami, there's nothing of substance there.

Your beliefs about life being sacred are then only determined by your current circumstances of comfort and protection. Remove those and in order to abide by what you believe you must give up what you believe.

renniks said:

It's a question of integrity though. I'm not sure I could deny Christ and I have great respect for Christian martyrs.

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I could say out loud that I deny my Beloved God, but I know where it count's which is in my Heart and Soul that I wouldn't be doing anything like that.