Difficulties in the BLM movement leadership

Hammster

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Looking at GROUPS helps us understand larger signals.

Did you ever take a science class? If you did then surely you did experiments where you did multiple copies of the same experiment and recorded the data. INDIVIDUALLY each experiment might have behaved somewhat differently (some probably failed!). But the overall analysis of the data (averages, standard deviations, etc.) showed the most likely result.

Individually if you had taken one of the experiments that had "failed" you might draw the wrong conclusion about the experiment. Indeed the analysis of GROUP behavior is pretty much why you have the world you have today. The advances you enjoy in society and technology all come from that center.

You like what is called "anecdotal data" which is exactly how one DOESN'T learn anything.
Saying that one group is xyz because of melanin levels is racism. It says that because of one characteristic, they should be seen or treated in a certain way.
 
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Oneiric1975

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Saying that one group is xyz because of melanin levels is racism. It says that because of one characteristic, they should be seen or treated in a certain way.

Race is a made up concept. But that being said, the effects of racism have been very real.

We cannot move past racism until we accept that they have been and continue to be real.

Do you not agree that racism is a real thing?
 
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Hammster

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Race is a made up concept. But that being said, the effects of racism have been very real.

We cannot move past racism until we accept that they have been and continue to be real.

Do you not agree that racism is a real thing?
I believe that there is ethnic bias. But that’s at an individual level.
 
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Oneiric1975

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I believe that there is ethnic bias. But that’s at an individual level.

Well if that's the case there's SO MUCH "individual" ethnic bias (whatever that means) to result in statistically significant differences in median incomes based solely on race. I'd call that a problem, wouldn't you?

I wonder what you mean, though, by your phrase "ethnic bias" and your insistence that it is an "individual" topic.

It kind of feels like you are trying to build some made up recontextualization of reality to fit some concept you prefer versus the larger problems we know exist. Almost as if you are looking for some "out" from having to even consider racism a significant problem.

But I will admit it is wholly unclear what your point is and for that I am sorry. Can you explain what you mean and how it fits into the known issue of racism in America?
 
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Hammster

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Well if that's the case there's SO MUCH "individual" ethnic bias (whatever that means) to result in statistically significant differences in median incomes based solely on race. I'd call that a problem, wouldn't you?
Can you substantiate that?
 
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Hammster

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I wonder what you mean, though, by your phrase "ethnic bias" and your insistence that it is an "individual" topic.

It kind of feels like you are trying to build some made up recontextualization of reality to fit some concept you prefer versus the larger problems we know exist. Almost as if you are looking for some "out" from having to even consider racism a significant problem.
I’m using the biblical understanding. Race is a social construct not found in scripture. Ethnicity, however, is found in scripture and bias towards any ethnicity is sinful.
 
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Oneiric1975

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Can you substantiate that?

Sure!

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Oneiric1975

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I’m using the biblical understanding. Race is a social construct not found in scripture. Ethnicity, however, is found in scripture and bias towards any ethnicity is sinful.

That is fine. Either way, if you wish to use the phrase "ethnicity-based discrimination" I'm OK with that and we both agree heartily that it is "sinful".

I think that is why Christianity has, within it's power, a great way to address this sin! In many ways those of us who are white benefit from the sin of racism in our country. Less so today than in the past, but the systems in place have resulted in generational wealth and opportunities that are open to some of us regardless of how much we sought them, and keep others out.

When people complain about "white guilt" they are really complaining about the same thing as "original sin" and Christian salvation! Christians know they don't "EARN" God's salvation...but it is given us by HIS GRACE. We are ALL fallen, ALL sinful. It is through our acceptance of our fallen nature and our earnest desire to do better that we come to God and are granted that grace.

When I see white people in America saying "I did not benefit from racism! I am PURE and UNSULLIED!" what I really hear are the damned screaming that God owes them salvation. That they did all the right things to EARN it.

I think there's value in remembering our sinful natures. Even when we do our best to avoid our sinful nature we must be ever mindful that we are still sinful and we can always do better. Maybe we won't achieve perfection (surely we won't), but if we are cognizant of our penchants we can do our best to avoid making the mistakes.
 
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Oneiric1975

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Maybe I’m just not a great graph reader, but I’m not seeing the part where racism is the reason.

The primary factor explaining the difference in income is race. Unless you think that the vast majority of black people are somehow "less" than white people there is something of interest there.

If it isn't racism, what is it do you think? Is it because all those black people are just poor workers? Not as good at their jobs as you are? Not worth as much as all those white people?

Have a guess.
 
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Hammster

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That is fine. Either way, if you wish to use the phrase "ethnicity-based discrimination" I'm OK with that and we both agree heartily that it is "sinful".

I think that is why Christianity has, within it's power, a great way to address this sin! In many ways those of us who are white benefit from the sin of racism in our country. Less so today than in the past, but the systems in place have resulted in generational wealth and opportunities that are open to some of us regardless of how much we sought them, and keep others out.

When people complain about "white guilt" they are really complaining about the same thing as "original sin" and Christian salvation! Christians know they don't "EARN" God's salvation...but it is given us by HIS GRACE. We are ALL fallen, ALL sinful. It is through our acceptance of our fallen nature and our earnest desire to do better that we come to God and are granted that grace.

When I see white people in America saying "I did not benefit from racism! I am PURE and UNSULLIED!" what I really hear are the damned screaming that God owes them salvation. That they did all the right things to EARN it.

I think there's value in remembering our sinful natures. Even when we do our best to avoid our sinful nature we must be ever mindful that we are still sinful and we can always do better. Maybe we won't achieve perfection (surely we won't), but if we are cognizant of our penchants we can do our best to avoid making the mistakes.
Okay
 
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Hammster

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The primary factor explaining the difference in income is race. Unless you think that the vast majority of black people are somehow "less" than white people there is something of interest there.

If it isn't racism, what is it do you think? Is it because all those black people are just poor workers? Not as good at their jobs as you are? Not worth as much as all those white people?

Have a guess.
You say the primary difference is race. But you haven’t shown that racism is the reason.
 
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Oneiric1975

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You say the primary difference is race. But you haven’t shown that racism is the reason.

I am open to other suggestions. Since race is the primary explanatory variable one assumes racism must have something to do with it (especially since we know race is a made up construct but RACISM is quite real).

Would you like to suggest to me why year over year for decades median black income is lower than white income?
 
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Hammster

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I am open to other suggestions. Since race is the primary explanatory variable one assumes racism must have something to do with it (especially since we know race is a made up construct but RACISM is quite real).

Would you like to suggest to me why year over year for decades median black income is lower than white income?
It seems that you cannot substantiate your claim.
 
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Oneiric1975

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It seems that you cannot substantiate your claim.

I see you cannot provide any alternative explanations. But I understand because if you said any of them out loud it wouldn't sound "good".
 
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Hammster

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I see you cannot provide any alternative explanations. But I understand because if you said any of them out loud it wouldn't sound "good".
I didn’t make a claim. It’s poor form to shift the burden to me.
 
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Oneiric1975

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I didn’t make a claim. It’s poor form to shift the burden to me.

It appears you have recently discovered the truism that "correlation does not mean causation", which is true of EVERYTHING. Literally everything you THINK you know falls due to that exact same truism. EVERYTHING.

There isn't one thing you think you know that cannot be thus taken down.

It is called empiricism. Think back to your undergraduate philosophy class when you learned about David Hume and the limits of empiricism.

Of course the REALITY is that we often rely on this type of thing to come to our "best estimates" of what is true. And that applies to everything. The best we can do is estimate truth.

Right now you have been shown data that shows, as the only explanatory variable a clear signal indicating race places a role in income inequality. Systematically so.

As such I currently have MORE EVIDENCE for my position than you have to the contrary.

Unless, of course, you wish to abandon all understanding of reality. That's what happens when you go that far with empiricism. Again, I assume you recall your intro philosophy classes.
 
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Hammster

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It appears you have recently discovered the truism that "correlation does not mean causation", which is true of EVERYTHING. Literally everything you THINK you know falls due to that exact same truism. EVERYTHING.

There isn't one thing you think you know that cannot be thus taken down.

It is called empiricism. Think back to your undergraduate philosophy class when you learned about David Hume and the limits of empiricism.

Of course the REALITY is that we often rely on this type of thing to come to our "best estimates" of what is true. And that applies to everything. The best we can do is estimate truth.

Right now you have been shown data that shows, as the only explanatory variable a clear signal indicating race places a role in income inequality. Systematically so.

As such I currently have MORE EVIDENCE for my position than you have to the contrary.

Unless, of course, you wish to abandon all understanding of reality. That's what happens when you go that far with empiricism. Again, I assume you recall your intro philosophy classes.
While race may play a role, that doesn’t show that racism is the cause. And that was your claim.
 
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Quartermaine

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No, reality says otherwise. But it does depend on whether you are looking at people as a group or as individuals. You obviously look at people as a group whereas I look at people as individuals.
I suspect what you are doing is looking selectively at individuals based on the traits you wish to emphasize. The result is you find exactly what you want to find
 
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