BREAKING: internet oracles were right, new Motu Proprio undoes Summorum Pontificum

Gnarwhal

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The document says that no new personal parishes that use the 1962 Missal can be erected (A.2 §2). The Anglican Ordinariate does not use that missal.

I wonder if that might be a loophole that traddy people can take advantage of? It's not the Latin Mass, but I think Catholics with more traditional sensibilities might appreciate the Ordinariate's Divine Worship more than your average Novus Ordo if they were given a choice.

Maybe there would be an opportunity bring that into the mainstream a bit more.
 
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chevyontheriver

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An indult to use an old liturgy and the claim that a liturgy is the extraordinary form of the lex orandi of the Roman Rite are two very different things.
Not so very different, no. And I'm not fond of hearing Benedict get slammed for his generosity in expanding access to what John Paul had already opened access to. Maybe you are not slamming, but he is getting slammed over this.

Here's Benedict's backgrounder to SP. It is generous and grounded: Letter to the Bishops that accompanies the Apostolic Letter "Motu Proprio data" Summorum Pontificum on the Roman liturgy prior to the reform of 1970 (July 7, 2007) | BENEDICT XVI
 
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zippy2006

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I wonder if that might be a loophole that traddy people can take advantage of? It's not the Latin Mass, but I think Catholics with more traditional sensibilities might appreciate the Ordinariate's Divine Worship more than your average Novus Ordo if they were given a choice.

Maybe there would be an opportunity bring that into the mainstream a bit more.

Could be, but this seems like a very roundabout solution. I think there are two long-term solutions for traditionalists. First, you could pray for a very traditional pope who would work a miracle and somehow cement the old use, perhaps through an entirely new Rite. This is highly unlikely. Second, you could rework the Novus Ordo in a traditional direction in particular parishes. I think the second solution is ideal, but will require leg work.

The problem I see is the same problem that traditionalists like Zuhlsdorf and Kwasniewski have noted: ultramontanism. The reason traditionalists' anger is so futile and frustrating is because they have no voice.

Not so very different, no. And I'm not fond of hearing Benedict get slammed for his generosity in expanding access to what John Paul had already opened access to. Maybe you are not slamming, but he is getting slammed over this.

Here's Benedict's backgrounder to SP. It is generous and grounded: Letter to the Bishops that accompanies the Apostolic Letter "Motu Proprio data" Summorum Pontificum on the Roman liturgy prior to the reform of 1970 (July 7, 2007) | BENEDICT XVI

Yes, I referenced that letter here. There is nothing grossly wrong in what Benedict did, but SP was never more than a temporary solution, and Francis' basic arguments are quite sound. I don't know if he is wielding sound arguments in a malicious way, but I do know that the reasoning holds water. IMO the legacy of SP goes hand in hand with traditionalists' ability to fold traditional liturgical principles into the Novus Ordo, thus enriching it. If that doesn't happen then SP will have been historically pointless. If it does happen then SP will have been highly valuable. SP planted a traditional sapling on borrowed soil. It had 14 years to grow, and it is now mature enough to be transplanted onto permanent soil. The only question is whether it will be.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I wonder if that might be a loophole that traddy people can take advantage of? It's not the Latin Mass, but I think Catholics with more traditional sensibilities might appreciate the Ordinariate's Divine Worship more than your average Novus Ordo if they were given a choice.

Maybe there would be an opportunity bring that into the mainstream a bit more.
I'd rather the Anglican Ordinariate not get swamped by traddies looking for refuge. As it is there are rules as to who can join the Ordinariates. You have to have a historical link. Me? I don't. My grandfather was Methodist and became Catholic. Had my father have been Methodist before becoming Catholic I would have qualified. I have scads of distant relatives in England that are Anglican. Now if there ever is a Lutheran Ordinariate I could join that as my mother was Lutheran.

Point being they are on a venture to be Anglo-Catholic, truly Catholic within an English historical patrimony. And if they flourish, we get good examples to improve the Latin Rite. It should provide enrichment to the Latin Rite. But it won't be able to do that if it is just swamped by traddies. Or if it's shut down by this moto proprio. And I fear that could happen because Ordinariate members are Catholics of the Latin Rite. If there is ONLY ONE Latin right ordo then they are shut down.

They refer to the Sarum Rite as their own usus antiquor and will at times use that for worship. They sometimes do the TLM or even novus ordo. Anyhow, I think they are now in a pickle due to pope Francis.
 
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chevyontheriver

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There is nothing grossly wrong in what Benedict did, but SP was never more than a temporary solution, and Francis' basic arguments are quite sound. I don't know if he is wielding sound arguments in a malicious way, but I do know that the reasoning holds water. IMO the legacy of SP goes hand in hand with traditionalists' ability to fold traditional liturgical principles into the Novus Ordo, thus enriching it. If that doesn't happen then SP will have been historically pointless. If it does happen then SP will have been highly valuable. SP planted a traditional sapling on borrowed soil. It had 14 years to grow, and it is now mature enough to be transplanted onto permanent soil. The only question is whether it will be.
I might agree with you that the vetus ordo and the novus ordo were never intended to be side by side forever. That there was supposed to be a cross pollination between the two resulting in something better. Problem is that takes lots of time and effort. But true hybridization, making something acceptable to all takes a long time if everybody is pulling in the same direction. I don't think that happens now as the plug has been pulled. We would need a whole new liturgical movement to start up again in a few generations to give it a new whirl.

We gained a little with the novus ordo but we lost too. I think we lost more than we gained. SP was an attempt at rescuing what would have been otherwise lost except to some historian of the liturgy. Getting actual people to use the TLM. And it had a real popularity with a younger crowd. Little bits here and there ended up in non-TLM usage, an occasional Latin Sanctus being an example.

Tell me I'm wrong and that liturgical improvements are actually coming. I think we have just fossilized the novus ordo as it is in 2021. Or maybe it will end up as one grand mess. I donno. I think some will go and become Orthodox, How's that for unity?
 
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Gnarwhal

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Second, you could rework the Novus Ordo in a traditional direction in particular parishes.

Interesting because I've always believed that the Ordinariate Mass is what the original concept of a vernacular Mass was supposed to be.

I'd rather the Anglican Ordinariate not get swamped by traddies looking for refuge. As it is there are rules as to who can join the Ordinariates. You have to have a historical link. Me? I don't. My grandfather was Methodist and became Catholic. Had my father have been Methodist before becoming Catholic I would have qualified. I have scads of distant relatives in England that are Anglican. Now if there ever is a Lutheran Ordinariate I could join that as my mother was Lutheran.

I certainly understand how you feel, but it also seems like it could be an inevitability. If a Latin Mass in a given diocese disappears but there happens to be an Ordinariate parish, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if all the parishioners showed up on the Ordinariate's doorstep rather than roll over and go to a Novus Ordo.

True, I doubt those rules will change anytime soon—if ever—either, but unless new rules come out restricting who can attend an Ordinariate (say, Bishop Lopes comes out and says something or the Vatican does) then I don't think it'll change who shows up for Mass, they'll just register at a diocesan parish but attend an Ordinariate one. In theory.

Point being they are on a venture to be Anglo-Catholic, truly Catholic within an English historical patrimony. And if they flourish, we get good examples to improve the Latin Rite. It should provide enrichment to the Latin Rite. But it won't be able to do that if it is just swamped by traddies. Or if it's shut down by this moto proprio. And I fear that could happen because Ordinariate members are Catholics of the Latin Rite. If there is ONLY ONE Latin right ordo then they are shut down.

They refer to the Sarum Rite as their own usus antiquor and will at times use that for worship. They sometimes do the TLM or even novus ordo. Anyhow, I think they are now in a pickle due to pope Francis.

Wait there are Ordinariate parishes that celebrate the Sarum Use?! I've been wondering that for ages, everything I'd read said it was either "extinct" or "defunct" ... if it's still in use anywhere that is freakin' amazing.

To your point out, that's my fear that despite being separate in so many ways, I feel like the motu proprio is just vague enough that it could be expanded to include them if the Vatican decides they're too much of an inconvenience re: trads.
 
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zippy2006

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As it is there are rules as to who can join the Ordinariates. You have to have a historical link. Me? I don't. My grandfather was Methodist and became Catholic. Had my father have been Methodist before becoming Catholic I would have qualified.

If your father belonged to the Ordinariate would you also qualify?

And I fear that could happen because Ordinariate members are Catholics of the Latin Rite. If there is ONLY ONE Latin right ordo then they are shut down.

One basic difference is that an Ordinariate is a juridic person according to Canon Law, and therefore has certain rights and privileges that the vetus ordo does not. "It is juridically comparable to a diocese" (Anglicanorum Coetibus).
 
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chevyontheriver

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True, I doubt those rules will change anytime soon—if ever—either, but unless new rules come out restricting who can attend an Ordinariate (say, Bishop Lopes comes out and says something or the Vatican does) then I don't think it'll change who shows up for Mass, they'll just register at a diocesan parish but attend an Ordinariate one. In theory.
We can attend. We just can't be members or play any roles like lector or parish council member. I think it's great to visit and I have four times so far in three locations. But it isn't our solution. By the way, their homilies have all rocked as has the music. We have stuff to steal from them if we actually get the chance.
 
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zippy2006

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I might agree with you that the vetus ordo and the novus ordo were never intended to be side by side forever. That there was supposed to be a cross pollination between the two resulting in something better. Problem is that takes lots of time and effort. But true hybridization, making something acceptable to all takes a long time if everybody is pulling in the same direction. I don't think that happens now as the plug has been pulled. We would need a whole new liturgical movement to start up again in a few generations to give it a new whirl.

Thing is, the Novus Ordo is quite malleable. It is usually criticized for this reason, but malleability could be an asset to traditionalists. I think the strict uniformity of worship that we saw prior to 1969 is a bygone reality. Liturgy already varies greatly from parish to parish. Why couldn't traditionalists claim a few parishes in each diocese and celebrate a traditional Novus Ordo? In this way the lex orandi and credendi of the traditional parishes would have much more influence on the wider Church than they currently do.
 
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chevyontheriver

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If your father belonged to the Ordinariate would you also qualify?
This was a long time ago, way pre-ordinariate. My grandfather became Catholic about 1915. My father was never anything but Latin rite Catholic. So I'm a plain vanilla Latin Rite Catholic with no basis to join the Ordinariate under current rules. Had my grandfather been much much younger and joined the Ordinariate, then my father could have been a member as well and so could I. So that's just circumstance.
One basic difference is that an Ordinariate is a juridic person according to Canon Law, and therefore has certain rights and privileges that the vetus ordo does not. "It is juridically comparable to a diocese" (Anglicanorum Coetibus).
Yes, but the same criticism of two ordos applies to the Ordinariates. If we can't have a vetus ordo and a novus ordo because such a thing is anomalous they can't have theirs either. Pretty much same difference. SP and AC are somewhat similar beasts. Except their bishops will not eagerly shut them down. Some plain vanilla Latin Rite bishops will shut down TLM. No word yet in my new diocese. My old diocese issues blanket permission.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Thing is, the Novus Ordo is quite malleable. It is usually criticized for this reason, but malleability could be an asset to traditionalists. I think the strict uniformity of worship that we saw prior to 1969 is a bygone reality. Liturgy already varies greatly from parish to parish. Why couldn't traditionalists claim a few parishes in each diocese and celebrate a traditional Novus Ordo? In this way the lex orandi and credendi of the traditional parishes would have much more influence on the wider Church than they currently do.
I have seen that done. The notable example was St. Agnes parish under monsignior Richard Schuler which never did not have a Latin mass. It was novus ordo Latin with classical music and priests facing God with the people. It has been called novus ordo as the fathers of Vatican II intended.

It's been a teeth pulling experience in many places to get a Latin mass of any sort. The momentum was increasing, and I think that frightened some people. I don't know how easy it would be to do.
 
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Gnarwhal

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We can attend. We just can't be members or play any roles like lector or parish council member. I think it's great to visit and I have four times so far in three locations. But it isn't our solution. By the way, their homilies have all rocked as has the music. We have stuff to steal from them if we actually get the chance.

I wonder if a shrewd bishop like Strickland or Cordileone might be gutsy enough to have their priests start celebrating the Divine Worship (if they can), since it's a vernacular Mass. Since it's neither one thing or the other. They're not denying anything about Vatican II. If they wanted to they could maybe even try to make the argument that Divine Worship is Vatican II fully realized.

I don't know this is just word vomit at this point, but if there's an opportunity to make the Ordinariate Mass even more available I hope it's taken.
 
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anna ~ grace

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I do think that the Latin Mass needs to continue. And that this could lead to secret, private Masses being said in homes, and underground.

I had to go on-line and try to learn some of the Latin prayers myself. Liturgical languages sustain and help many OO, ACE, and EO churches. They are good things to hold on to.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I wonder if a shrewd bishop like Strickland or Cordileone might be gutsy enough to have their priests start celebrating the Divine Worship (if they can), since it's a vernacular Mass. Since it's neither one thing or the other. They're not denying anything about Vatican II. If they wanted to they could maybe even try to make the argument that Divine Worship is Vatican II fully realized.

I don't know this is just word vomit at this point, but if there's an opportunity to make the Ordinariate Mass even more available I hope it's taken.
I think it is allowed for a non-Ordinariate priest to say an Ordinariate liturgy if there are ordinariate members but no available priest of the Ordinariate.

At this point I would hope that a good bishop would just blanket allow TLM. And then just wait it out for a new pope. Problem is it's kind of been telegraphed that bishops should be anti-TLM and the less spineful ones will restrict TLM to curry favor with the presently constituted Vatican. Are you willing to move? Practically I can't. But then we have heard nothing yet about this from our archbishop.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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As a kid in our church we would have two Masses going on at the same time. We had the lower church and the upper church. Big Irish catholic neighborhood.

But when they had a a High mass I would go to the upper church. I enjoyed that the Mass was sung in Latin and the incense. Not sure why or when they would have them but I would choose to attend.
 
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Gnarwhal

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At this point I would hope that a good bishop would just blanket allow TLM. And then just wait it out for a new pope. Problem is it's kind of been telegraphed that bishops should be anti-TLM and the less spineful ones will restrict TLM to curry favor with the presently constituted Vatican. Are you willing to move? Practically I can't. But then we have heard nothing yet about this from our archbishop.

It seems like Abp. Cordileone is blanket allowing it. I mean it was just in the news a couple weeks ago that he was having all his seminarians train in the EF to be able to offer a more complete Catholic experience (essentially). I know he's always been a fan of the EF and strong supporter of Fr. Illo at Star of the Sea in SF.

Then after Traditionis Custodes came out he was one of the first bishops to say the EF would continue in his archdiocese.

I wish I could move. Not just cause I'd love to be in a more TLM-friendly diocese but also I just don't like the DMV (DC-Maryland-Virginia) area. But that's a separate issue.

But when they had a a High mass I would go to the upper church. I enjoyed that the Mass was sung in Latin and the incense. Not sure why or when they would have them but I would choose to attend.

That's the full monty right there.
 
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zippy2006

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Yes, but the same criticism of two ordos applies to the Ordinariates. If we can't have a vetus ordo and a novus ordo because such a thing is anomalous they can't have theirs either. Pretty much same difference. SP and AC are somewhat similar beasts. Except their bishops will not eagerly shut them down. Some plain vanilla Latin Rite bishops will shut down TLM. No word yet in my new diocese. My old diocese issues blanket permission.

I would say that with the Ordinariates and Eastern Churches there is a juridically enshrined group of people who are beholden to a particular liturgy. An Ordinariate is something like a pseudo-Rite. But those who favor the old form of the Latin Rite have no special ethnic or religious identity. They are just Roman Catholics who prefer a different liturgy. So the principled basis that exists for the former does not exist for the latter. In the latter case the group is distinguished by taste or liturgical sensibility, and not by objective ethnic or religious roots.
 
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I wonder if that might be a loophole that traddy people can take advantage of? It's not the Latin Mass, but I think Catholics with more traditional sensibilities might appreciate the Ordinariate's Divine Worship more than your average Novus Ordo if they were given a choice.

Maybe there would be an opportunity bring that into the mainstream a bit more.
Please let us hope not! The Anglican Church is also termed " Catholic Lite".
In other words, on a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the full, traditional Latin Mass, the High Episcopal Church would be a #4, the typical Catholic new mass would be a #5.
United Rainbow Methodist would be a #2, Free Methodist would be a #3.
So there are already several other choices available out there that have already splintered away from the Latin Catholic mass. No need to add more.
In fact, the real need is exactly the opposite these days: more God-centered, and less man-centered.
 
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