Whom was Cain made by in Gen 4 who is the Lord in the Bible...

MMXX said:

Something just occurred to me regarding angel gender. Are not Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer described as male? And the demon Jesus cast out?

Then Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” Mark 5:9

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That's just it----all angels mentioned in the bible have male names. So to think that Gold made only male angels, but gave them male "equipment" able to impregnate a woman---but gave them no females---that would be cruel! Possibly millions of eons passed from the time the angels were made to the time that Lucifer fell and became Satan. No one knows how long they were around before he fell. No females, no way to have sex for God is not one to allow same sex get togethers---and then all of a sudden, the angels that fell were able to impregnate human females??? Hardly. They are nongender meaning, they are asexual. They were not created for reproduction. They were created as messengers for God. That is what the word angel means---messenger.

YHWH denotes God, the Holy Trinity.

The Father is YHWH.
The Son is YHWH.
The Holy Spirit is YHWH.

Every divine act is the act of the Trinity. The Father does not act apart from His Son and Spirit. Neither does the Son act without the Father and the Spirit. And neither does the Holy Spirit act apart from the Father and the Son.

The act of creation is a Trinitarian work, the work of the Trinity.

That is why in the Creed we say:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things seen and unseen.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God [...] Through him all things were made. [...]
And in the Holy Spirit, Lord and Giver-of-life [...]"

Who is the Creator?
The Father is.
The Son is.
The Holy Spirit is.

Not three creators, but one Creator.
Not three gods, but one God.
Not three lords, but one Lord.

"We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confusing the Persons nor dividing the Essence" - The Athanasian Creed

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud said:

Gen 6 is a mistranslation---it is about spiritual men of authority---such as God's priests, mighty men, men of high rank, marrying women who were not followers of God. Something that God always hated. They then became fallen men. Like prominent preachers today who have fallen by aligning themselves with women not their wives, or prostitutes.

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Boring. The whole "angels breeding with humans producing monsters" thing is a lot more exciting.

Jipsah said:

Boring. The whole "angels breeding with humans producing monsters" thing is a lot more exciting.

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Exciting does not equal to reality. Jesus said Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

If you think Jesus is boring---that's your problem. I'll take His words over anything that some might consider more exciting but are lies.

mmksparbud said:

Exciting does not equal to reality. Jesus said Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

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But these wouldn't have been angels which were in heaven - so that doesn't apply. Angels in heaven don't possess people either, but fallen angels do. Fallen angels don't play by the same rules as the angels in heaven. They're outcast renegades.

One theory is the reason why God had to wipe the population clean with a flood at that time, is because the gene pool had been corrupted resulting in hybrid monstrosities.

mmksparbud said:

That's just it----all angels mentioned in the bible have male names.

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Not just male names, but referred to as being male.

mmksparbud said:

So to think that Gold made only male angels, but gave them male "equipment" able to impregnate a woman---but gave them no females---that would be cruel!

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There are only a few out of legions of angelic beings who are referred to individually. Just because those few out of thousands happened to be referred to as male, wouldn't indicate that applied to all the rest of them. The Father is obviously male. Does He have or need a wife? Jesus is male, He never had a wife on earth, and there's no indication He has one in heaven.

mmksparbud said:

Possibly millions of eons passed from the time the angels were made to the time that Lucifer fell and became Satan. No one knows how long they were around before he fell. No females, no way to have sex for God is not one to allow same sex get togethers---and then all of a sudden, the angels that fell were able to impregnate human females??? Hardly. They are nongender meaning, they are asexual. They were not created for reproduction. They were created as messengers for God. That is what the word angel means---messenger.

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One of the few things we know about angels from scripture is:

"Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for in doing so, some have entertained angels without knowing it." Hebrews 13:2

This verse leads me to conclude that angelic beings can take on human form when on the earth.

MMXX said:

But these wouldn't have been angels which were in heaven - so that doesn't apply. Angels in heaven don't possess people either, but fallen angels do. Fallen angels don't play by the same rules as the angels in heaven. They're outcast renegades.

One theory is the reason why God had to wipe the population clean with a flood at that time, is because the gene pool had been corrupted resulting in hybrid monstrosities.

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So, all of a sudden, having fallen, those angels now do [possess male equipment suitable to impregnate a human female? What---did God give them what He had not given the unfallen angels so they could impregnate human females---but then He wipes out the whole world---except for 8 --for doing so? Makes no sense what so ever. The angels fell with whatever they did or did not have. They were never able to have sex with humans----we are not their kind---and only those of the same kind did God allow to procreate. We are made lower than the angels, we do not have the needed DNA to have their children nor do they have ours. It paints God as some cruel thing that He is not.

MMXX said:

Not just male names, but referred to as being male.



There are only a few out of legions of angelic beings who are referred to individually. Just because those few out of thousands happened to be referred to as male, wouldn't indicate that applied to all the rest of them. The Father is obviously male. Does He have or need a wife? Jesus is male, He never had a wife on earth, and there's no indication He has one in heaven.



One of the few things we know about angels from scripture is:

"Do not forget to show hospitality to strangers, for in doing so, some have entertained angels without knowing it." Hebrews 13:2

This verse leads me to conclude that angelic beings can take on human form when on the earth.

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And you think that makes them have the neexed equipment to impregnate human females? There are male horses --- they can not impregnate human females. They have female horses for that and there are no female angels mentioned. I've had this conversation countless times---nobody makes any sense of it. God said---after their kind---we are not their kind!! Why do people not want to see what God clearly says and want to make up stories that He has not said?? There were giants in those days!! Adam and Eve and their progeny were not 5 ft 6 in. tall!! They were giants -- before and after the flolod. If you notice, they also livedd mu h longer before the flood---but after the flood their age, and height were affected. Pockets of genetic giants remained here and there---as with Goliath and his family. Same as with the Massai in Africa and the pygmies. Everyone tries to paint God as though He is some sort of cruel tyrant. I refuse to buy this junk. The ancient Jews did not buy this---Even the Targum of Onkelos doesn't interpret this the way you do. The bible calls them men, not angel men hybrids!
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

TgOnk Gen. 1-6 (targum.info)

VI. And Noach was a son of five hundred years, and Noach begat Shem, Cham, and Japheth. And it was when the sons of men had begun to multiply upon the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the sons of the mighty[32] saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful, and took to them wives of all whom they pleased.[33] And the Lord said, This evil generation shall not stand before me for ever, because they are flesh, and their works are evil. A term (or length) will I give them, an hundred and twenty years, if they may be converted. Giants were in the earth in those days; and also when, after that the sons of the mighty had gone in unto the daughters of men, there were born from them giants who from of old were men of name.
And the Lord saw that the wickedness of man had multiplied in the earth, and that every formation (or image) of the thought of his heart was only evil every day. And it repented the Lord in His Word that He had made men upon the earth. And He said, (in His Word,)[34] that He would break their strength according to His pleasure. And the Lord said, Man whom I have made will I blot out[35] I from the face of the earth;‑from man to the beast, to the reptile, and to the fowls of heaven; because it repenteth Me in My Word that I have made them. But Noach found mercy before the Lord.

mmksparbud said:

So, all of a sudden, having fallen, those angels now do [possess male equipment suitable to impregnate a human female? What---did God give them what He had not given the unfallen angels so they could impregnate human females---but then He wipes out the whole world---except for 8 --for doing so? Makes no sense what so ever. The angels fell with whatever they did or did not have. They were never able to have sex with humans----we are not their kind---and only those of the same kind did God allow to procreate. We are made lower than the angels, we do not have the needed DNA to have their children nor do they have ours. It paints God as some cruel thing that He is not.

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It seems according to Hebrews angelic beings can take on human form while on earth, and we can't tell them apart form ordinary people. There's also the incident of Jacob wrestling with an angel the same as if Jacob had been wrestling with a man. I see no reason to assume that when angels are in human form on earth they are anything other than physically human in all respects. God wiped out mankind with a flood because mankind had become corrupted. I don't see how any of this scenario in any way paints God as cruel.

MMXX said:

Personally I don't see as how it paints God as cruel. To me as strange as the theory is, it would have been a good reason why God had to wipe the earth clean and do a re-start.

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If angels have no reproductive equipment, how did they get them after the fall? They can not create, only mimics---that is why they posses. Believers in this foolishness have gone so far as to say God created the parts for them after they fell!! Which means God created what they did not have in order for them to impregnate human women then He kills the whole planet for them doing so. Ands you don't find that foolish or cruel? Why not just believe what Jesus says and what the original translation said instead of believing fairy tales? Is not the reason for the flood that God gave enough for you?

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It was because of our own evil hearts which loved 9only violence and hatred. And Jesus says "as in the days of Noah"----that's when He returns and will do the final cleansing of the planet. We love to hate. We can't even accept the fact that God would blot out the world and start over because of our wicked hearts, it has become so common we think nothing of it and have to come up with foolish theories as the truth is just not ugly enough for us anymore!

mmksparbud said:

If angels have no reproductive equipment, how did they get them after the fall? They can not create, only mimics---that is why they posses. Believers in this foolishness have gone so far as to say God created the parts for them after they fell!! Which means God created what they did not have in order for them to impregnate human women then He kills the whole planet for them doing so. Ands you don't find that foolish or cruel? Why not just believe what Jesus says and what the original translation said instead of believing fairy tales? Is not the reason for the flood that God gave enough for you?

Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It was because of our own evil hearts which loved 9only violence and hatred. And Jesus says "as in the days of Noah"----that's when He returns and will do the final cleansing of the planet. We love to hate. We can't even accept the fact that God would blot out the world and start over because of our wicked hearts, it has become so common we think nothing of it and have to come up with foolish theories as the truth is just not ugly enough for us anymore!

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It seems according to Hebrews angelic beings can take on human form while on earth, and we can't tell them apart form ordinary people. There's also the incident of Jacob wrestling with an angel the same as if Jacob had been wrestling with a man. I see no reason to assume that when angelic beings are in human form on earth, they are anything other than physically human in all respects.

MMXX said:

It seems according to Hebrews angelic beings can take on human form while on earth, and we can't tell them apart form ordinary people. There's also the incident of Jacob wrestling with an angel the same as if Jacob had been wrestling with a man. I see no reason to assume that when angels are in human form on earth they are anything other than physically human in all respects. God wiped out mankind with a flood because mankind had become corrupted. I don't see how any of this scenario in any way paints God as cruel.

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It is all over the bible that angels "appear" as humans. That does not mean they actually be come human! Satan can impersonate the dead, he can impersonate animals, and they can posses humans---but they can not become human! God's angels do not impersonate the dead, nor do they posses humans. Why must we be making up stuff instead of just taking what God says?? You are free to believe whatever you want. I'll stick with what scripture has to say. Jesus said it and people refuse to just believe Him

Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Angels do not marry or given in marriage for they are not creatures made to procreate!! Even if they could---God said at creation we procreate only with our own kind and they are not our kind!!! We are beneath them. Even apes and human females can not procreate! Apes can not have human babies and we are about as far down from the angels as apes are from us!! Good grief---even humans have a hard time having babies some times!

mmksparbud said:

Exciting does not equal to reality. Jesus said Mar_12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

If you think Jesus is boring---that's your problem. I'll take His words over anything that some might consider more exciting but are lies.

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I'm considering offering classes in Sarcasm Recognition. Can I sign you up?

Jipsah said:

I'm considering offering classes in Sarcasm Recognition. Can I sign you up?

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I'm a master at it---just ask the mods. I have to humble myself before God often. I fight and fight against it. However, I'm not that good at recognizing it in others. I tend to take others as being more straightforward than myself. So, I guess, yes, sign me up.

mmksparbud said:

It is all over the bible that angels "appear" as humans. That does not mean they actually be come human! Satan can impersonate the dead, he can impersonate animals, and they can posses humans---but they can not become human! God's angels do not impersonate the dead, nor do they posses humans. Why must we be making up stuff instead of just taking what God says?? You are free to believe whatever you want. I'll stick with what scripture has to say. Jesus said it and people refuse to just believe Him

Mat_22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Angels do not marry or given in marriage for they are not creatures made to procreate!! Even if they could---God said at creation we procreate only with our own kind and they are not our kind!!! We are beneath them. Even apes and human females can not procreate! Apes can not have human babies and we are about as far down from the angels as apes are from us!! Good grief---even humans have a hard time having babies some times!

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We are made in the image of God. And were made a little lower than the angels. I don't see as to how that equates us to apes compared to angels. When we are in heaven, we will have glorified bodies. Which will make us like angels. After the resurrection Jesus had a glorified body. He could be touched and ate a piece of fish. But He could also either appear out of nowhere or pass through walls, as he suddenly appeared to the apostles inside a locked room. So I think the difference between humans and angels is considerably less than you make it out to be. Also as you pointed out, humans were much different up to the time of Noah. They were greater in stature and had very long lifespans. And at the time of Noah, God changed humans to be of less stature and have much shorter lifespans. So if there were fallen angels living upon the earth at that time, they would have been among super-humans. Just as humans in heaven are like angels, perhaps angels on earth are like humans. How is it that Jacob could hold his own wrestling an angel all night if the angel wasn't like a human? The angel seemed to be having a difficult time constraining Jacob, and finally after a long struggle had to perform a maneuver that dislocated Jacob's hip. I don't think creation can get any higher than the image of God. Therefore I think both angels and humans were created in the image of God and therefore are much alike. Angels just have abilities we won't have until we get our new bodies which will make us exactly like both the resurrected Jesus and the angels. If as you say angels come less equipped than us, that would make them inferior to us. Likewise that would mean our new bodies in heaven (which will be like the angels) would be missing parts and therefore incomplete.

Jipsah said:

I'm considering offering classes in Sarcasm Recognition. Can I sign you up?

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Wow cool. What's the tuition? Is it accredited?

This showed up in my recommended. Covers all the bases. 16 mins.

MMXX said:

We are made in the image of God. And were made a little lower than the angels. I don't see as to how that equates us to apes compared to angels. When we are in heaven, we will have glorified bodies. Which will make us like angels. After the resurrection Jesus had a glorified body. He could be touched and ate a piece of fish. But He could also either appear out of nowhere or pass through walls, as he suddenly appeared to the apostles inside a locked room. So I think the difference between humans and angels is considerably less than you make it out to be. Also as you pointed out, humans were much different up to the time of Noah. They were greater in stature and had very long lifespans. And at the time of Noah, God changed humans to be of less stature and have much shorter lifespans. So if there were fallen angels living upon the earth at that time, they would have been among super-humans. Just as humans in heaven are like angels, perhaps angels on earth are like humans. How is it that Jacob could hold his own wrestling an angel all night if the angel wasn't like a human? The angel seemed to be having a difficult time constraining Jacob, and finally after a long struggle had to perform a maneuver that dislocated Jacob's hip. I don't think creation can get any higher than the image of God. Therefore I think both angels and humans were created in the image of God and therefore are much alike. Angels just have abilities we won't have until we get our new bodies which will make us exactly like both the resurrected Jesus and the angels. If as you say angels come less equipped than us, that would make them inferior to us. Likewise that would mean our new bodies in heaven (which will be like the angels) would be missing parts and therefore incomplete.

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OH, for heavens sake!! "I don't see as to how that equates us to apes compared to angels." I said WE ARE AS FAR FROM ANGELS AS APES ARE FROM US----And what does Gen 6 have to do with what we will be after the resurrection??!! Name one verse that says angels were created in the image of God---
-should be simple for you! All I see is that we are created in the image of God---never the less---We are also created lower than the angels! But Jesus will be greater than the angels because He is God! We are not! The bible does not say that God changed man after the flood!! And I did not say that! You can see that the length of their life decreased slowly over time after the flood and why not their height also? Animals were changed after the fall, and also after the flood man was allowed meat which they had not had until after the flood. It is eating meat that decreased their lifespan.

Not much differ3nt than the angels? Hah! God had to destroy us for our evil hearts---yah---we were much different from the angels that had not fallen---we were led into every sin that the fallen angels could point us to---they didn't have to marry us---and by the way---marriage is a religious ceremony. Centered around God. Fallen angels had no love for the authority of God much less the authority of the religious inclinations of man! Why would they "marry" anyone??!! Seriously???


Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

They are higher than us---that is difference enough to prevent conception between us! There is a clear indication of what Gen 6 says and the Targum of Onkelos proves it. The translation is not angels having sex with human women!

"Giants were in the earth in those days; and also when, after that the sons of the mighty had gone in unto the daughters of men, there were born from them giants who from of old were men of name."

Men---not angel-man hybrids!
Gen6:4..."and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
Not halfmen/half angels of renown!!

mmksparbud said:

OH, for heavens sake!! "I don't see as to how that equates us to apes compared to angels." I said WE ARE AS FAR FROM ANGELS AS APES ARE FROM US----And what does Gen 6 have to do with what we will be after the resurrection??!!

Name one verse that says angels were created in the image of God---
-should be simple for you! All I see is that we are created in the image of God---never the less---We are also created lower than the angels! But Jesus will be greater than the angels because He is God! We are not! The bible does not say that God changed man after the flood!! And I did not say that! You can see that the length of their life decreased slowly over time after the flood and why not their height also? Animals were changed after the fall, and also after the flood man was allowed meat which they had not had until after the flood. It is eating meat that decreased their lifespan.

Not much differ3nt than the angels? Hah! God had to destroy us for our evil hearts---yah---we were much different from the angels that had not fallen---we were led into every sin that the fallen angels could point us to---they didn't have to marry us---and by the way---marriage is a religious ceremony. Centered around God. Fallen angels had no love for the authority of God much less the authority of the religious inclinations of man! Why would they "marry" anyone??!! Seriously???


Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

They are higher than us---that is difference enough to prevent conception between us! There is a clear indication of what Gen 6 says and the Targum of Onkelos proves it. The translation is not angels having sex with human women!

"Giants were in the earth in those days; and also when, after that the sons of the mighty had gone in unto the daughters of men, there were born from them giants who from of old were men of name."

Men---not angel-man hybrids!
Gen6:4..."and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."
Not halfmen/half angels of renown!!

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If angels on earth are that much different from us, then how is it that people have entertained them in their homes and not noticed any difference according to Hebrews 13:2?

The Bible makes it clear that angels appear in human form to interact with people, and human form is human form.

I'm afraid I don't know anything about the extrabiblical source called Targum of Onkelos. I just know the Bible. And in the Bible, "sons of God" only occurs five times in the Old Testament.

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. Genesis 6:2

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genesis 6:4

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them. Job 1:6

Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord. Job 2:1

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:7

I'm pretty sure it's a given that the sons of God in Job are angels.