John MacArthur, please remove the plank from your eye

Humble_Disciple said:

Joel Osteen, on the other hand, who I disagree with on pretty much everything, receives no salary from his church:

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Yeah, the way they’ve worked this scam is Osteen writes books that are given away (sometimes) and are paid for by donations, of course if you also just happen to own the publishing house that prints them…pure profit!
Jimmy Swaggert operated this way.
And it’s all nice and legal.

Humble_Disciple said:

I wouldn't care about his wealth, except for the fact that it's coming from his church coffers, while he denounces Joel Osteen, who, while teaching a questionable doctrine, takes no salary from his church.

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Well, I would commend him for teaching against Joel Olsteen whose always had the air of a snakeoil salesman to me. Has John Macarthur preached against accumulating wealth? Or advocated living in a minimalist fashion? What is his specific criticism of Olsteen in particular? Because I think what we need to discover is whether or not the man is a hypocrite.

I suppose the question is whether or not someone like Macarthur should live in more modest accommodation and earn less. Quick research indicates this is his only home. Does he use the money he has earned only on himself and enriching himself? Does he use the money he has gotten inappropriately? Is he using it like Ravi Zacharias did on massages? Or is he perhaps investing that money into his family? If the former, he is obviously being bad, if the latter, he is perhaps thinking about his family first (he does have fifteen grandchildren and four children of his own) and that's not so bad in my opinion.

If it's an agreed upon salary and the Church values him at that amount I kind of don't see a problem with it.

I honestly don't know in the case of John Macarthur.

The problem isnt how macarthur is spending the money, its the fact that there are still altruists in this day and age. Money itself isnt sinful, its the love of money that is. If a person has money, great! Its a gift from God. God created money for a purpose, and some He decided to give more of it to. Its silly to be mad that macarthur has money and isnt living in a ranch style house while driving a 1990 honda civic.

rocknanchor said:

"O Lord God, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, , ,Then Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!”, , , and the temple fell"

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This isn't suicide in the usual sense.

In WWII, Soviet pilots used a tactic called buran (blizzard). When they ran out of ammo, they would sometimes attempt to ram their airplanes into German bombers. The intent wasn't to kill themselves, but to destroy the enemy. Death of the pilot was a potential consequence, of course, but it wasn't the primary intent.

Humble_Disciple said:

It's hard to believe this level of hypocrisy. Joel Osteen, despite his questionable teachings, might be the better man, because he could easily expose MacArthur for his hypocrisy. I can't believe that a fellow Calvinist is making me defend Joel Osteen.

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Osteen's really not the best example of a "prosperity Gospel" preacher. He's just sort of a typical conservative, evangelical (in the American sense) pastor that focuses on a soft-pedaled message.

Even though I really disagree with his religious worldview, I can respect him as a good communicator who is friendly and charismatic.

MacArthur, on the other hand, is an insufferable character that you couldn't pay me to watch for any extended period of time. He's petty, doctrinaire, joyless.

Bible Highlighter said:

MacArthur also pretends to teach holy living as a requirement for salvation, but he really does not believe that way according to the Bible. The Lordship Salvation doctrine he popularized is a Trojan horse.

How so?

Well, Kenneth Nally committed suicide as per his influence of John MacArthur's ministry and MacArthur said that he was still saved.

Here is a quote from an article:

"At the trial, MacArthur, 45, is seeking to clarify his church’s teaching on suicide. “It’s not only a sin, it’s illegal,” he says. “But we teach that even if a believer takes his own life, the Lord will still receive him into His presence.”​

Article Source:
Fundamentalist Clergymen Face Charges of 'Malpractice' When a Parishioner Turns to Suicide

John MacArthur says that a person can take the mark of the beast and they can still be saved afterwards. Listen to this audio clip by him here:

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/audio/macarthur-take-mark.mp3​

John MacArthur says,

".. sin does not result in spiritual death for the believer ...
(The MacArthur Study Bible, p. 1927, comment on James 1:15)"​

John MacArthur confirms how one can sin and still be saved here in this video:

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Disrupting another thread I see, to teach Bible Highlighter's version of how salvation works.

Humble_Disciple said:

I am not upset at John MacArthur's income. I feel sorry for the members of his church for having to pay his extravagant salaries.

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Folks have been calling out MacArthur on this since the 80s.

Humble_Disciple said:

John Piper has mostly the same teachings as John MacArthur but presents them in a joyful way.

Joel Osteen is questionable because he won't say clearly and openly what the Bible says about homosexuality, the need for other religions to accept Christ, and the reality of hell.

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That's not surprising considering he has chosen a soft-pedaled approach and those issues are highly controversial and emotionally charged.

rocknanchor said:

"O Lord God, remember me, I pray! Strengthen me, I pray, , ,Then Samson said, “Let me die with the Philistines!”, , , and the temple fell"

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Okay. This is not an example of suicide. Samson did not have any super strength on his own. The strength Samson had was by the power of God. God granted his prayer in giving Samson strength again, but he did not know how things were going to turn out. God could have kept Samson alive if he wanted. So it was ultimately God deciding to take Samson's life because God answered his prayer and it was not also entirely selfish because he was also looking to save his people from the Philistines, too. But Samson could not take down those pillars in the temple without God's Spirit. So it was ultimately God who decided to end Samson's life. So yeah, this is not example of suicide with God being in favor of it like you wish it to be.

As for John MacArthur's abundant wealth:

That is not the only problem I see with him. People in this thread have already pointed out his hypocrisy of condemning Joel Olsteen. Also, he started to coincidently write his books on Lordship Salvation right off his church was sued by a family whose son committed suicide by his church's teachings. Obviously he wanted to put on a show that he was for holy living when in reality he really was not. Again, this is hypocrisy. He is not really for holy living, but he is for the idea that you can sin and sitll be saved.

Lifelong_sinner said:

To Bible Highlighter, the second you are saved, you are justified. Once you are justified, ALL your sins are forgiven, past, present, and future.
Romans 3:28, Romans 5.

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Show me the exact verse where it says a believer's future sins are forgiven them?
On the contrary, 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. How can you confess of sins if they are already forgiven in the future? Maybe you need to correct the apostle John for his false way of thinking in 1 John 1:9.

But yes, this is a teaching that John MacArthur holds to. He believes the saint can sin and still be saved just like you do. Thus, this is why MacArthur is not concerned with having lots of wealth even though the New Covenant (New Testament) appears to condemn a believer in being rich (See: Matthew 19, and 1 Timothy 6).

FireDragon76 said:

That doesn't contradict justification by faith alone.

In Luther's mind (and probably Calvin as well, from what little I know of him), you obey God because it is good and right to do, not because it contributes to your salvation. Even our obedience does not contribute to our salvation in any way, it is merely a response of gratitude.

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Not sure what Bible you are reading, but mine (the KJV) teaches that after we are saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus, we also need to enter the Sanctification Process as a part of God's plan of salvation, as well. How so? Just check out these points I made in Scripture below.

1. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
   
   
2. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
   
   
3. A person can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
4. Jesus agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28).
   
   
5. Those who have done good, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, shall come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
   
   
6. We have to continue in His goodness, otherwise we can be cut off [just like the Jews were cut off] (Romans 11:21-22).
   
   
7. Helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to inheriting the Kingdom (Matthew 25:34-40), and not helping the poor, and the unfortunate relates to going away into everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:41-46).
   
   
8. Whoever does not righteousness or does not love his brother is not of God (1 John 3:10).
   
   
9. Whoever does what Jesus says is likened unto a wise man who built his house upon the rock, and when a storm came, it did not fall, (Matthew 7:24-25), but the person who does not do what Jesus says is likened unto a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house (Matthew 7:26-27).
   
   
10. Abiding in Jesus will bear much fruit, but if a person does not abide in Jesus [thereby being unfruitful], they are cast out [or cut off] like a branch to be burned in the fire (John 15:5-6).
    
    
11. If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing (1 Peter 4:18-19).
    
    
12. Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14) (NKJV).

John MacArthur not only believes in not living holy as the Bible describes it, and he is for accumulating great wealth for himself despite the NT warnings on being rich, but he also holds to Calvinism, as well. The problem with Calvinism is God force saves some against their will to be saved, and He by default does not save the vast majority of mankind. This means God judges men for something that is out of their control. It would be like a master kicking his dog like a football for pooping on his carpets when the dog is sick and has an uncontrollable pooping problem. So instead of the master having compassion on the poor animal and taking it to the vet he just kicks it. This is how I understand Calvinism to be like when looking at their five point system.

Bible Highlighter said:

Show me the exact verse where it says a believer's future sins are forgiven them?.

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ok. Romans 8:30 “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.“

once you have been justified (saved), you will be glorified (let into Heaven). You clearly dont understand once saved, ALWAYS saved.

[QUOTE="Bible Highlighter, post: 76096784, member: 356113"

John MacArthur not only believes in not living holy as the Bible describes it, and he is for accumulating great wealth for himself despite the NT warnings on being rich, but he also holds to Calvinism, as well. [/QUOTE]

and there it is, yet another who hates calvinism. At this point, its like we calvinists are the red headed stepkids of the family.

it took this forum to show me just how wide ranging people’s beliefs can be about the same topic. I now understand why there are so many different denominations all stemming from the one Bible.

Bible Highlighter said:

Yeah, I am not coveting his money, either. It's hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

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I'll take your share!

It's easier to preach what Jesus said, than doing what Jesus said. I think that goes for all of us.

Lifelong_sinner said:

ok. Romans 8:30 “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.“

once you have been justified (saved), you will be glorified (let into Heaven). You clearly dont understand once saved, ALWAYS saved.

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We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).
Also, Paul in context said in Romans 8:1, says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.”

So if one is walking after the flesh (sin) and not after the Spirit, they are under the Condemnation (Note: To see more about the Condemnation, please read John 3:19-21).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.” (Galatians 5:16).

What flesh is Paul referring to? Lets keep reading.

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

So Paul refers to the works of the flesh as various different sins in Galatians 5:19-21, and he also says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Not inheriting the kingdom of God is a loss of salvation.

How so?

Well, we learn in Matthew 25:31-46 that inheriting the kingdom is about entering God's kingdom for helping the poor, etc. and it is contrasted with those who did not help the poor and they were told to go away into everlasting punishment (i.e. a punishment with eternal consequences).

Matthew 25:34-35 says,
“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:”

Matthew 25:41-42 says,
“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:”

In addition, Romans 8:13 says,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Everyone physically dies, so Paul here is referring to spiritual death by a believer sinning. He is saying if you live after the flesh (sin) you will die spiritually, but if you through the Spirit do mortify (put to death) the deeds of the body (sin) you shall live eternally (live spiritually). So Romans 8:1, and Romans 8:13 is the context of Romans 8:30. You cannot ignore other Scripture verses when reading your proof texts for your wrong belief that justifies sin and evil.

MacArthur also has a wrong interpretation on Romans 8:30. He views the word “predestinate” as in reference to Unconditional Election when that is not how the word is used in the Bible. So John MacArthur believes he is saved and elected by God and not by his choice. He believes nothing he can do will undo his salvation, and this is why he can live a rich lifstyle and have an overly excessive income despite the warnings in Scripture against being rich in the New Testament.

Tinker Grey said:

I'll take your share!

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Who said to you that I am rich? I am not. See, this is the problem with being rich. People want to steal your money or they covet it after your money. People have been kidnapped because they are rich, etc.; So John MacArthur is not practicing what the Bible preaches. Even some atheists have a problem with pastors being rich and in fleecing the flock.