Christian martyr complex vs. atheist martyr complex

Tinker Grey said:

See, this is just sad. Live now.

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It's sad for me to know that you left all this behind. This life is nothing but a vapor. We are here today gone tomorrow. I live for what comes after. What I do in this life will determine what happens to me in the eternity following. But if I get there any sooner, that's fine with me. This world is cursed.

Tinker Grey said:

I don't know what is so difficult to understand. It matters to me. It matters to my friends and family. It's enough tor me. That it may not matter to anyone after I'm gone is what doesn't matter.

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I understand perfectly. You are an animal. You seek to fulfil your desires as determined in your nature. Your personal thoughts as to the value you place on your sacrifice or what you've done don't really mean anything more than that you have them.

I will respect you for how you choose to identify, not as a man, but an animal.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I understand perfectly. You are an animal. You seek to fulfil your desires as determined in your nature. Your personal thoughts as to the value you place on your sacrifice or what you've done don't really mean anything more than that you have them.

I will respect you for how you choose to identify, not as a man, but an animal.

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You say that like it's a bad thing. Get over yourself.

Tinker Grey said:

You say that like it's a bad thing. Get over yourself.

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It isn't anything according to yourself. It's merely your animalistic response determined by your nature. You're not at fault for it, you're not to be blamed, you are merely one creature in an indifferent material reality.

What do I have to get over in myself though from your animalistic perspective? My belief that I am a human? That I have value when compared to a cat? Why does it matter? I am merely doing according to my biology what I am supposed to in your worldview. Truth, good or evil, none of that matters.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

It's a rather feminine position to want to preserve life at any cost. Why should men entertain the notion that no idea or belief is worth dying for?

Not that there haven't been valiant and courageous women willing to die for their principles btw.

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It sounds like what you just did was try to accuse a person of being cowardly by saying that the person must be a woman.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

If it comes down to a choice between antiquated idealism and belief in something or a passive and nihilistic belief in nothing (or worse, the self), then I know I would prefer the former.

If there are no ideals worth dying for, what's the point in living?

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You're equivocating. I think you know what I was referring to when I said it was an antiquated position.

ranunculus said:

But when I read responses in various threads over the past week like "Why should any Christian be so afraid of dying?", "This life is not for this life", "I hate this life as all believers do"... it doesn't become that hard to understand why some say Christian teachings and doctrines are antithetical to human and societal wellbeing.
But at the same time I surmise that the audience here self selects for a more hardcore believer and doesn't represent the general population.
Still I do look to people who stay close to literal interpretations of their texts and teachings for understanding their religion.

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Any such comments while crude and not exactly grasping a deeper humanity don't seem intrinsically wrong or anti-ethical. Why is it wrong to die for one's beliefs? Why do you commend a life to others where our beliefs do not matter enough in order to live them out to the end?

If it is anti-ethical to die for one's belief, why is it ethical to say we ought die for nothing?

ranunculus said:

I'm saying sacrifice is noble when it's to save a life, much less so when the only result is loss of life.
If two children were arguing, and the first one says, "my dad can beat up your dad" and the other pulls out a weapon and say "you take that back!", and the first one says, "no" and then the other one kills him, that would be a pretty stupid reason to die.
That's kind of the way I see dying for your beliefs for a really dumb reason.

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Why use a fake example when we can use a real one? ISIS slaughtered 21 Coptics in 2015. Some of these men managed to shout out their belief in Christ as Lord before they died. Who knows, if they had begged hard enough, had said the Shahada with as much sympathy as they could, they might have lived. But in the process they would have to give up their faith as Christ made the terms explicit. We are to love him before all others. They could have done what ISIS told them to do, they could have succored on their promises of Islam. Yet they didn't.

I can understand if you consider these men stupid. You have no higher loyalty or any belief that you consider worth dying for. Yet why should your word be taken seriously when you cravenly and cowardly cling to life at all costs? Honour, Love and Commitment be damned. Am I to believe my life is worth more than those things? That those 21 Copts died for nothing? If so I confess, that if those things aren't worth dying for there's not much point in living. After all, according to some here, we are mere animals and why mourn the deaths of 21 animals?

ranunculus said:

I think we're talking past each other, you misrepresent my beliefs, attack my character and you strike me as a rather caustic person. I'd appreciate it if you didn't address me further.

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Well were those 21 Coptics fools for dying for their faith? You're the one making the case that there are no beliefs worth dying for. If I interpret that as cowardly how would you correct the assertion? Should we be willing to lie in all things in order that we might live? Or just religion?

ranunculus said:

On a number of occasions I've seen stories about people with a Christian upbringing being harangued by pastors or others about the virtue of never denying God, even in the face of death.
...
So please, Christians, in the extremely unlikely event that you are asked to deny God on pain of death, ignore the horrible advice of your youth pastor and just tell a white lie. I'm sure a worthy God will understand.

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The question is, if you are truly a Christian and know you are going to be with God for eternity anyway, and this life is just like a vapor, why would you even think to lie to save yourself? Save yourself from what? Eternal life with God in heaven?

Yes there are good things in life. To live is Christ ... to die is gain. Christians live to serve but do not fear death. It awaits us all. Do not fear those who can kill the body ...

ranunculus said:

I go against that because I still want to believe that most Christians are just people who want to make the best out of this life and who are not looking forward to leaving this planet as soon as possible.

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I don't know about ASAP, but absolutely! I do look forward to being with God. You find this disheartening but for a lot of Christians, or if I speak for just myself here, I'm not satisfied with just this imperfect, corrupt existence. I want more.

Revelation 21:4
4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.

I understand that the scriptures don't hold validity to non believers, but is there anything or anyone on this earth that comes close to offering an existence like this? Romantic relationships? Familial relationships? Unlimited sex? Fame? Wealth? Power? The strongest drug high? Achieving the perfectly proportioned body? Delicious food? A million pets? Accolades and applause? Passports full of stamps? A 401k and an ocean front retirement home?
Is there a perfect existence to be found here, right now, that we can cultivate on our own?

ranunculus said:

I'm saying sacrifice is noble when it's to save a life, much less so when the only result is loss of life.

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This is a fundamental difference in understanding.... for a believer:
Luke 9:23-25
23 And he said to all, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?

ranunculus said:

That's kind of the way I see dying for your beliefs for a really dumb reason.

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That certainly makes sense why it seems foolish from the perspective of a non believer, if your hope lies only in this existence and the things of this world.

Romans 8:5-7
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

ranunculus said:

If you found out your beliefs weren't true, what would change for you? How would your world be different?

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If I was ignorant to the truth about God, then absolutely, I would find it odd not to deny Christ when confronted.
I'd probably also place more value in the pursuit of living my 'best' life if I was living under the impression that this world is all there is.

Back to the very original post, if faced with the decision to deny Christ or face immediate death, many Christians will choose God because He surpasses any temporary persecution the world will throw at us. When non believers find it foolish it's only because we have a diametrically opposed understanding of God, how could you possibly see if you don't know Him?
I don't post these things because I think I'm better or holier than anyone else, on the contrary! I'm human and a sinner with my own fleshly desires and flaws, the only reason I'm saved is Christ, not anything inherent in me. if anything I do is good I pray that it points people to Christ who alone deserves all the glory. I'm vaguely familiar with the lady you mentioned in the school shooting, but anytime a saved family member or friend or acquaintance dies, even though we may experience grief and pain, it is a great comfort to know that when that person's eyes close in this life, they aren't suffering at all, their eyes immediately open up in glory before God Himself. They certainly have it a lot better than the rest of us still moving forward with our lives on this side.

ranunculus said:

To be clear I'm not saying there are no scenarios where self sacrifice isn't virtuous or even necessary.

In my OP I was only addressing a hypothetical where it would be kind of pointless or perhaps stupid in my view.

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I get that, I suppose I was simply attempting to highlight what I think is a distinction between a martyr/persecution complex and actual suffering/persecution/martyrdom.

I think that the persecution complex that is prevalent among certain strains of modern affluent western Christians is ridiculous.

It's ridiculous, I believe, because it's not persecution, and further I believe it actually insults the memory of those who legitimately have suffered.

The average Christian in the western world today is almost certainly never going to experience the sorts of things which Christians living during the reigns of Nero or Diocletian did. No Christian alive today living in the west is going to be forced to stand before a judge and be accused of atheism (denying the existence of the gods of the state) and hatred of humanity (a charge levied against Christians for having views and practices which were considered disruptive to the Roman way of life).

What the Columbine story reveals is the social narrative of "Christians vs the secular", that all the various social forces at work are always anti-Christian. Thus rather than two deeply troubled teenagers doing a horrific act, it is warped into an example of "the secular" literally attacking "the Christian". And that narrative feeds fear, it feeds hostility--it instills in the minds of impressionable Christians that everyone is out to get them--the politicians, the school boards, the school teachers, everyone.

It's the same reason for the hostility among certain Christians against things such as the science of climate change, or evolution. Because the narrative has been framed in such a way that science is identified with the enemy-other, the forces conspiring against the Christian. The actual science isn't the point, it's about taking a side and being on the "right side".

This is the language of "culture war", which should be familiar to anyone who has been alive in the English-speaking world for the last several of decades.

As far as for the actual act of dying for a belief or cause, that's always going to be subjective at least on some level. Obviously the terrorist who blows themselves up didn't think their action was a horrific and tragic waste of human life, but I certainly do.

I think what can be gleaned from this is that a willingness to die for something demonstrates resolve. Now we may disagree with that resolve; but what I don't think we can do is ignore it. On the one hand that means taking seriously the person willing to do violence and are willing to die--that demonstrates a danger to society and so should be taken seriously. In the same way someone standing on a ledge about to take a jump needs to be taken seriously, talk them down, help them, if they have gotten to this point then they need to be taken seriously. Likewise, someone who is willing to face a bullet or arena full of wild animals for their religious convictions demonstrates a seriousness with which they treat their faith.

I personally believe Christianity is worth taking that seriously. But I also think I am saying this while living a reasonably comfortable affluent life in the modern world, and the chances of me actually ever having to face meaningful resistance to my faith is close to nil. The worst I'll ever experience is people disagreeing with me, and perhaps disagreeing with me really really passionately. But I'm never going to go to prison, or be brought into court, or be tortured, hanged, burned, or fed to wild animals for being a Christian, at least not here in secular America. Indeed, in America I got a lot of the privilege boxes checked: white, cis-male, straight, Christian. I'm not exactly worried about persecution, though I am worried about how people who don't have my privileges are treated.

-CryptoLutheran

Mark Quayle said:

This life is not for this life.

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Which I find very troublesome.
We are in this life and its in this life that God can be a reality where He's needed the most. This is life where it counts the most.

If placed into a position of martyr, for myself it would not be for God in the sense given in the OP. And I say that as a Lover of God. What I'd give my life for are other Human Beings. I don't know if I can explain, but in the world I live in, it's in the Soul of Humanity where Christ lives. So for me, with out going very deep with it, seeing the Divine in others is where God becomes a reality for this person, in this life where God is needed the most. Which points towards why I'd martyr for other people as they are sacred as their soul is an activity of God, but not for God in the sense drawn out in the OP.

Martyrdom and general persecution was glorified in my Christian childhood. One I'd label as pretty vanilla compared to others. Sadly I was greatly suckered into such a mindset. Took me a while to wash myself from that stuff when I became an atheist. If I ever have children I'll try my best to make sure they're not exposed to it and if my parents who are Christians ever take them to a Sunday school they'll never see them again. That would be an unforgivable breach of my parenting.

Even despite all that.. I am still partial and find a lot of Christian suffering/persecution artwork and aesthetics to be appealing and use them in my art. They are very interesting artifacts of human psychology but they should be handled with respect and understanding.

The aesthetics are pretty cool when I see them in art.. even if cliché. I loved how the new Resident Evil Village game designed Mother Miranda.

dlamberth said:

Which I find very troublesome.
We are in this life and its in this life that God can be a reality where He's needed the most. This is life where it counts the most.

If placed into a position of martyr, for myself it would not be for God in the sense given in the OP. And I say that as a Lover of God. What I'd give my life for are other Human Beings. I don't know if I can explain, but in the world I live in, it's in the Soul of Humanity where Christ lives. So for me, with out going very deep with it, seeing the Divine in others is where God becomes a reality for this person, in this life where God is needed the most. Which points towards why I'd martyr for other people as they are sacred as their soul is an activity of God, but not for God in the sense drawn out in the OP.

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You seem to be getting out of the sentence, "This life is not for this life", things it does not suggest. That doesn't mean anything against this life. Nor even against living this life to the fullest nor enjoying what we can in this life.