So, if people's theology means they cannot forgive, does that mean hell?

GallagherM · Jul 15, 2021

You explain to me however you like by using scriptures. If that is what you believe that Christians can not be immature in faith that is fine...

It doesn't not negate the fact there are people who are babes in Christ sir.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

Sabertooth · Jul 15, 2021

GallagherM said:
It doesn't not negate the fact there are people who are babes in Christ sir.

Did my first post not speak to that?
For "babes in Christ," learning to forgive should be on their To-Do list (& their prayer list), just like patience should be. Don't the 12 Steps teach this, too?

God is patient with us, but He is also our Father, Who corrects us.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

Sabertooth said:
26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying,

‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’
27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion,
released him, and forgave him the debt.

32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him,

‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

Verse 34 was a retraction/revocation of verse 27.

It's still just a parable, that's how humans are, so how would God be if someone repented and forgave all again?

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

GallagherM said:
You explain to me however you like by using scriptures. If that is what you believe that Christians can not be immature in faith that is fine...

It doesn't not negate the fact there are people who are babes in Christ sir.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

So this reminds me of that passage saying their soul will be saved but their works burned.

Since hell is the consuming fire presence of God, the fire that burns the works is hell for a moment, then God's presence is all that remains.

Certain attitudes and thought patterns cannot enter God's presence.

A question remains about how much of the person's personality is left if all is burned except the soul, but I guess the lesson would to be cultivate with God the most possible space within you that is compatible with Him - since we're living together forever and all.

Sabertooth · Jul 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
It's still just a parable, that's how humans are, so how would God be if someone repented and forgave all again?

You are disregarding verse 35.
We have to learn from the Spirit how to forgive, but at the end of the day, it is a requirement to be forgiven ourselves.
Even if it weren't, grudges only hurt the people who hold them.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

Sabertooth said:
You are disregarding verse 35.

Am I now?

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So that means people can still forgive the person they wouldn't forgive.

The punishment is conditional of not being forgiving.

GallagherM · Jul 15, 2021

Michael you should know I don’t believe hell has anything to do with.

However simply the person and their understanding of the word, and what they desire to live for. We all do still live in this world and make choices and we can either reap to the flesh or reap to the spirit.

So on judgement day if we reaped more to our own will compared to Gods will by living in the spirit and loving God and others; there will be a lose of reward.

It’s all predicated between that person who has faith. And there different measures of faith.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

GallagherM said:
Michael you should know I don’t believe hell has anything to do with.

However simply the person and their understanding of the word, and what they desire to live for. We all do still live in this world and make choices and we can either reap to the flesh or reap to the spirit.

So on judgement day if we reaped more to our own will compared to Gods will by living in the spirit and loving God and others; there will be a lose of reward.

It’s all predicated between that person who has faith. And there different measures of faith.

Yep. The rest of the bible is true, just examining one aspect of it.

Sabertooth · Jul 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
So that means people can still forgive the person they wouldn't forgive.

No. It means if they never get to that point of forgiving, they won't be forgiven.

God will do the same thing that the king did.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

Sabertooth said:
No. It means if they never get to that point of forgiving, they won't be forgiven.

God will do the same thing that the king did.

I used to the think that, but God burned it out of me.

I'll trust Him to do His job, it's not mine.

Saint Steven · Jul 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
In the gospel Jesus talks about how the way we judge others is the way we will be judged, and the way we measure others, the same ruler stick will be applied to us.

So how does this apply to theologies on the final judgment?

For example, if in your theology, most people go to hell - does that mean you're also "mostly" going to hell?

This creates an interesting conundrum. Thanks for launching this topic.

The contradiction of caveats. Salvation doesn't depend on us. It is based on the finished work of Christ. However...

We will be judged the same way we judge others, God can't forgive us unless we forgive others, then there is that pesky unpardonable sin... (the list goes on and on)

So, what does embracing the hell theology do to us spiritually? (good question)

Was it A.W. Tozer that wrote that idolatry can be as simple as a misunderstanding of who God is? (Knowledge of the Holy)

Embracing the hell theology gives us a skewed view of God. It slanders him by making him a cosmic tyrant on the level of an angry volcano god. Or turns our heavenly Father into a gangster godfather that makes us an offer we can't refuse. "Accept the free gift of salvation, or burn forever." As if Jesus were saving us from God.

To get away from blaming God for such a horrible plan, they blame the victims, claiming that they chose hell. Get real. No one chooses hell.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 15, 2021

GallagherM said:
You explain to me however you like by using scriptures. If that is what you believe that Christians can not be immature in faith that is fine...

It doesn't not negate the fact there are people who are babes in Christ sir.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

“And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.” (1 Corinthians 3:1) (KJB).

"I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ." (1 Corinthians 3:1) (NLT).

Paul had to speak to them in a MANNER or WAY as if they were infants in Christ by their wrong behavior and he was not referring to their identity. Paul is not saying that they are literally infants in Christ (to mean that they are newly saved converts). They are not newly saved converts. Paul is saying that HE HAD TO SPEAK TO THE CORINTHIANS IN A MANNER OR WAY AS IF THEY WERE IMMATURE CHILD-LIKE NEW CHRISTIANS, when they should be mature Christians. He is addressing their bad behavior. He had to talk to them as IF they were infants because of their bad behavior. This does not mean they literally are infants in Christ. Just because somebody declares themselves to be a Christian, or an apostle, does not mean they are saved. Their lack of growth shows that they were dead. For it is not natural for a human to not grow out of childhood. If Rick spoke to Bob as if he was a cat, that does not mean Bob is literally a cat. Paul was emphasizing in the manner of which he had to speak to the Corinthians and he not laying claim to their spiritual identity or salvation status with these particular words.

Paul calls them carnal.
To be carnal means they were at enmity against God.

6 "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Romans 8:6-8).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 15, 2021

GallagherM said:
You explain to me however you like by using scriptures. If that is what you believe that Christians can not be immature in faith that is fine...

It doesn't not negate the fact there are people who are babes in Christ sir.

1 Corinthians 3:1 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ.

No doubt you believe the parable in 1 Corinthians 3 is dealing with a Christian's loss of rewards.

But this is not what the parable is teaching.

Paul says before the parable, "you are God's building."
So we are the materials that make up the building.

The work is not referring to just any kind of general actions of a believer like good fruit (any kind of good fruit) and evil fruit (sin). The work is referring to those believers we bring to the faith and their eternal status with God (i.e. what kind of building materials are they made up of). The Parable is talking about Paul's work (Which is the Corinthians in this instance).

I believe Paul and the other apostles are a part of the foundation with Christ being the chief cornerstone or the ultimate baseline foundation (Ephesians 2:20), and that Paul's work in the gospel are the result of the Corinthians being initially saved by the gospel. However, Paul is now concerned that his labor in the gospel (concerning them) is now in vain because the Corinthians are now working the sins of strife and envying (Note: Paul condemns the sins of strife and envying when writing to the Galatians (Galatians 5:19-21). Paul says that they which do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God). In Galatians 4:11, Paul was concerned for the Galatians in that they were going back to the Old Law so as to be justified or saved. He was concerned that his labor for the gospel was in vain for the Galatians.

So the parable speaks of how his labor for the gospel (concerning the Corinthians) was now possibly in vain for them, too.

#1. The chief cornerstone foundation = Jesus Christ.
#2. Built as a part of the foundation on top of Christ = The apostles (including Paul, etc.) (Ephesians 2:20).
#3. The actual building materials of the tower or building = God's people (In this instance it would be the Corinthians).
#4. The Corinthians would be like: Wood, hay, and stubble in this particular point in time within their life while they abided in their sins of strife, and envying (Which are sins that will cause a person to not inherit the Kingdom of God).
Wood, hay, and stubble are not materials that could survive a fire.
#5. Paul (the soul winner, and builder of the gospel and builder upon the foundation of Jesus Christ) would be saved through the fire (despite his work - i.e. the Corinthians being his work) would be burned up because of their sins. For Paul then says that if any man defiles the temple, God will destroy them (Meaning: God will destroy the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins). We are the temple of God. Our bodies are the temples of God. If we as believers defile our temples by sin, God will destroy us (i.e. condemn us).

This is what I believe the parable is saying. The works of Paul that will be burned are the Corinthians if they do not repent of their sins of strife and envy (1 Corinthians 3:3). The Corinthians at this point in time are not saved and they will be burned up in the fire and destroyed by God if they don't seek forgiveness with the Lord and turn from their sins of strife and envy. Paul, the apostles, or the gospel preacher is the one who will be saved through fire if his work (the Corinthians) is burned up (on the account of their justifying sin). The parable is not talking about how a believer can sin and still be saved as long as they have a belief on Jesus. It's actually teaching the exact opposite of that. One cannot build sin as a work upon the foundation of Jesus Christ. Jesus did not advocate sin, and neither did He teach that a person can continue to sin and still be saved.

Yes, we are initially and foundationally saved by God's grace, but believers cannot justify sin, and they have to be fruitful for their Lord and live holy as a part of the Sanctification Process.
For Hebrews 12:14-15 says,

“14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness,
without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”
(Hebrews 12:14-15).

Bible Highlighter · Jul 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
I used to the think that, but God burned it out of me.

I'll trust Him to do His job, it's not mine.

Then why work out your salvation with fear and trembling?
(See: Philippians 2:12).

Why fight the good fight and lay hold on eternal life?
(See: 1 Timothy 6:12).

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).
Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Not sure how these things in Scripture can be true if things are as you say.

RDKirk · Jul 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
In the gospel Jesus talks about how the way we judge others is the way we will be judged, and the way we measure others, the same ruler stick will be applied to us.

So how does this apply to theologies on the final judgment?

For example, if in your theology, most people go to hell - does that mean you're also "mostly" going to hell?

That doesn't make any sense.

By the laws of my state, a person judged guilty of capital murder will be sentenced to prison. That doesn't mean every citizen in the state is going to prison. But no one person can judge anyone to prison for murder, nor can any single citizen forgive a judgment against anyone for murder.

We are not doing the judging with regard to hell. None of us can condemn anyone to hell, nor can any of us forgive an offense that leads to hell. Only God can do either, because such offenses are against Him.

However, Jesus' warnings against unforgiveness for offenses against us personally are multiple, explicit, and indeed dire. We have the power to forgive offenses against us personally, and we must forgive, or we jeopardize our our own salvation.

But that has nothing to do with recognizing a theological doctrine that God has the power to condemn a person to hell.

RDKirk · Jul 15, 2021

GallagherM said:
So Christians can’t be immature in their faith is what it seems you are telling me. I beg to differ considering many people who have faith who might suffer through addictions might be weak in faith but if you tell me they lost their salvation… seems like people are very condemning and judgmental in my opinion.

Being "mature in faith" does not mean a person will never sin. Paul claimed that he was mature in the faith, yet he also acknowledged that he still failed to do the things he ought to do, and did the things he ought not to do.

One pastor compared it to the difference between two ducks, each one wounded by a hunter's shot pellet. One duck saw that it was wounded, decided all was over, fell to the ground and was picked up by the hunter's dog. The other duck saw that it was wounded, but struggled to fly on until it was beyond the dog's range, then it landed and eventually recovered. The pastor urged Christians to be the struggling duck.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 15, 2021

RDKirk said:
Being "mature in faith" does not mean a person will never sin. Paul claimed that he was mature in the faith, yet he also acknowledged that he still failed to do the things he ought to do, and did the things he ought not to do.

One pastor compared it to the difference between two ducks, each one wounded by a hunter's shot pellet. One duck saw that it was wounded, decided all was over, fell to the ground and was picked up by the hunter's dog. The other duck saw that it was wounded, but struggled to fly on until it was beyond the dog's range, then it landed and eventually recovered. The pastor urged Christians to be the struggling duck.

I believe Paul was recounting his past experience as a Pharisee who struggled to keep the Old Law without Jesus in Romans 7:14-24 (and he was not giving us an account of his life as a Christian). I provided 8 biblical points to show why this is the case in my post here in another thread (just in case you or anyone else is interested).

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Then why work out your salvation with fear and trembling?
(See: Philippians 2:12).

Why fight the good fight and lay hold on eternal life?
(See: 1 Timothy 6:12).

We are told:

“...We are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end.” (Hebrews 3:13-14).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." (Revelation 2:10).

We are told to:

Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).

Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22) (Colossians 1:23).

Continue in his goodness, otherwise we can be cut off (just like the Jews were cut off) (Romans 11:21-22).

Not sure how these things in Scripture can be true if things are as you say.

Was more of a reference to Philippians 3:15

Gregory Thompson · Jul 15, 2021

RDKirk said:
That doesn't make any sense.

By the laws of my state, a person judged guilty of capital murder will be sentenced to prison. That doesn't mean every citizen in the state is going to prison. But no one person can judge anyone to prison for murder, nor can any single citizen forgive a judgment against anyone for murder.

We are not doing the judging with regard to hell. None of us can condemn anyone to hell, nor can any of us forgive an offense that leads to hell. Only God can do either, because such offenses are against Him.

However, Jesus' warnings against unforgiveness for offenses against us personally are multiple, explicit, and indeed dire. We have the power to forgive offenses against us personally, and we must forgive, or we jeopardize our our own salvation.

But that has nothing to do with recognizing a theological doctrine that God has the power to condemn a person to hell.

Was a reference to how people can be saved, but their works burned.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 15, 2021

Michael Collum said:
Was more of a reference to Philippians 3:15

I know God can make things clear to me on what we may disagree on according to Philippians 3:15, but I would rather you explain it. Your ability to not answer my questions only shows that your belief may in fact not be biblical.

So, if people's theology means they cannot forgive, does that mean hell?

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