Salvation in its fourfold aspects !

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I have been reading your posts, dear sir. But people have a funny way of what they mean by their words. So I am asking for clarity by asking a simple question with you answering.... yes or no.

Again, I am not asking you to do anything hard here. A simple yes or no to my last question I asked you will clear up the confusion. But you refuse to answer with a simple.... yes, or no. Why is that?

Again, I ask you: Do you believe that the true saint is saved even in their old life whereby they are a sinning Christ rejecting person prior to their acceptance of Christ and in being regenerated (born again)?

Yes, or no?

Please answer.
I decline !
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Ah, I get it now. I did a little searching on the forums to see what else you might believe on this topic. By looking at another thread, you appear to hold to some form of Calvinism. No offense, but in my experience: Calvinists are notorious for being secretive with what they believe.

You said this, I quote:

“No theres two whole worlds, one in 1 Jn 5:19 thats not Christ Sheep, and 1 Jn 2:2 that is Christ Sheep that dont have sins charged to them. Gods wrath has been satisfied for them.”
Quote by: ~ Brightfame52.
Source:
Post #130 - Is Salvation instantenous or is it a process?

This suggests that you believe in John Calvin's Limited Atonement whereby the Lord Jesus only died for the Elect and He did not die for the sins of the whole world so as to provide a Provisional Atonement.

But the following post (below) actually helped me to find out a little more on where you are coming from on your first aspect of salvation that you were not so helpful in sharing in this thread.

You said in another thread, I quote:

“...a person is in Christ before the foundation of the world if theyre Chosen in Christ Eph 1:4. That said they are always saved eternally, but when born in time physically, they are lost , dead in sin like all sinners, but in due time God will save them from that spiritually lost state.”
Quote by: ~ Brightfame52.
Source:
Post #112 - Is salvation instantenous or is it a process?

This is the answer I was looking for that you refused to give me. I am glad you provided this explanation on another thread to figure out what you actually believe here. So according to your 1st aspect of salvation: You believe that the Elect saved saints only (and not the whole world), were saved before the foundation of the world before time was created. You believe that time did not exist before the creation of our planet. That the saint is saved in eternity outside of our time, but when the saint was born into time, they are lost and not saved until God saves them (no doubt unconditionally) from their lost state with God showing them about Jesus Christ.

So it appears that the answer to my previous question would be a.... No.
You don't believe the saint was saved in his old life as a Christ rejecting sinner before knowing about salvation in Jesus Christ (Which you most likely believe is some form of Unconditional Election).

But you believe the saint was saved before the foundation of the world before the creation of time.
So in one way, the saint was saved in the past before the foundation of the world and the creation of time, and then they became lost with the creation of time (when they were born into this world), and then they became saved again by God Electing them unconditionally.

But what makes you think timelessness existed (or no concept of time existed) before the foundation of the world? What Scripture verses give you that indication?

How would you define this point of timelessness?
How does it work?
Are you saying the saints pre-existed before the foundation of the world in some form of timeless state or dimension?

How would a timeless dimension even work? There could be no sequence of events of you doing anything. For time is simply the measurement of an action or a sequence of events. Is nothing going to happen when the saints reach this dimension of timelessness? Or do the saints have the capacity to live in many points in time simultaneously in this dimension that is outside of normal time? Can they travel into eternity's past with God? Can they exist far into eternity's future with God or do they exist in all points in this timeline experiencing multiple things all at once?

Granted, I am not expecting any answers from you because you have not been forthcoming in sharing any information in this thread so far. But in my reading of the Bible, this sounds more like fiction and or something made up rather than just reading and believing the Bible plainly. Nowhere does God's Word describe how we pre-existed in some form of timeless dimension with God before the foundation of the world. In fact, the idea that there is a reference point in time about the Bible describing “before foundation of the world” suggests the concept of time itself. Before the foundation of the world is not timeless but it is a point in time.

 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So after the Spirit does His Sanctifying and Renewing Work in us, implanting a new mind, heart, will and affections, which things give Spiritual receptivity of the things of God, its then we are saved from the darkness and delusion of false hopes and religion, and receive the truth of the Gospel, which saves us. Thats why Paul writes scriptures like 1 Cor 1:21

For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

The saving here isn't the saving from the penalty of sin, no that was accomplished by the eternal purpose and legal savings of God in Christ. However even with that the elect are still born blind and dead to God, and need saving in that regard as well. Again Paul says some will be saved by hearing sound doctrine 1 Tim 4:16

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine[Gospel]; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,433
7,859
...
✟1,187,903.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
So after the Spirit does His Sanctifying and Renewing Work in us, implanting a new mind, heart, will and affections, which things give Spiritual receptivity of the things of God, its then we are saved from the darkness and delusion of false hopes and religion, and receive the truth of the Gospel, which saves us. Thats why Paul writes scriptures like 1 Cor 1:21

You are not changed BEFORE you accept the gospel message. You are changed spiritually AFTER you receive the truth and not before. We are told in Scripture to repent and be converted (See: Acts of the Apostles 3:19). 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is the gospel of salvation upon which we stand. This is how we initially get saved by believing the gospel message and then the Lord immediately changes our heart after that point if we were genuine to receiving what His Word says. Remember, faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith did not come by God forcing you to be Elected to salvation. God only elects or chooses us ahead of time not in a forced salvific sense but He does so based on His foreknowledge in knowing what you are going to do (See: 1 Peter 1:1-2). So if God knows I am going to react favorably to accepting Jesus Christ as my Savior in the past, He is going to set things up favorably in my life to make that so. God can delcare ahead time in setting me apart. This does not mean God is forcing me to be saved, but He is giving me nudges or pushes to make my accceptance of Christ of my own free will much more favorable.

You said:
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Right, this speaks against Calvinism because it was the foolishiness of preaching the gospel to save them that BELIEVE. Not to them that are Elected against their own will.

You said:
The saving here isn't the saving from the penalty of sin, no that was accomplished by the eternal purpose and legal savings of God in Christ.

If our sins are be remitted when we repent then that shows that we are being saved from the penalty of sin.

“Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” (Acts of the Apostles 2:38).

For the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23).

You said:
However even with that the elect are still born blind and dead to God, and need saving in that regard as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 says that the reason why those who perish are perishing is because THEY received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. This speaks against the idea that man is so depraved that He needs an Election by God to be saved. It appears that there are individuals who perish because they received not the love of the truth that they MIGHT be saved. There is no MIGHT be saved in Calvinism and yet that is exactly what 2 Thessalonians says.

You said:
Again Paul says some will be saved by hearing sound doctrine 1 Tim 4:16

Not sure how this verse works in Calvinism. In Calvinism: You are elected to salvation and there is nothing to undo that election. But Paul says that hearing sound doctrine is what can save us instead.

You said:
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine[Gospel]; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

The word “doctrine” simpy means teaching.

“How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue,hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.” (1 Corinthians 14:26).

“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,...” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

So when 1 Timothy 4:16 refers to “the doctrine” as “the teaching(s).”

For Paul says in 1 Timothy 4:15, “Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.”

What things are we to meditate upon? The things Paul just mentioned the previous chapters (including the beginning part of 1 Timothy 4).

So while the gospel is one teaching, it is not the sole teaching that Paul is talking about in 1 Timothy 4. He is teaching us other things that are important, as well. For example: 1 Timothy 6:3-4 says that if any man does not agree with the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing. James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So we have to accept the doctrine according to godliness, if not, then we are resisting God's grace.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And finally Salvation is Glorification which is final deliverance from the presence of sin and glorification of our bodies. Paul writes this in Romans:

Rom 13:11

11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Paul is writing this statement to saved believing saints, yet he writes of a Salvation being nearer. This is Glorification. This is final Salvation. Jesus speaks of it here Lk 21:27-28

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Eph 4:30

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Thess 5:8

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Heb 9:28

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

1 Pet 1:5,9

Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Phil 3:20-21

20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body,
according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Salvation is a excellent work of God !

It begins with Gods Election to Salvation from eternity Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Then we have Gods sanctification 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Then we have Gods Call 2 Thess 2:14

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 1:9

9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

We have Gods preservation unto Glory

Rom 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

2 Thess 2:14

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I agree with writer Stanley Phillips:

Salvation is much more comprehensive than many people seem to realize. It certainly transcends all the little humanly devised “plans of salvation.” In a purposeful manner, all God’s people were “saved” in the covenant of grace by divine election. That is, they were objects of God’s particular and everlasting love even before the foundation of the world. (Jer. 3 1:3) They were by election given to the eternal Son of God, and thus in this sense, were saved from perdition. By that divine choice, they were never numbered with the “sons of perdition” such as Judas. (See John 17:12; Philippians 1:28; II Thess 2:3; I Tim. 6:9; Heb. 10:39; II Peter 3:7; and Rev. 17:8, 11) From eternal election, they were sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ.” (Jude l) As our text states: They were both SAVED and CALLED according to God’s own “purpose and grace,” and this “before the world began.” It should be noted that, in the text, “saved” precedes “called.” That is, the whole number of God’s elect are as saved and safe IN Christ by divine election in the purpose of God, as though they were in fact already in the presence of eternal glory.
Click to expand...

This corresponds with what I wrote earlier about Salvation in its Eternal Aspect.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Again, I ask you: Do you believe that the true saint is saved even in their old life whereby they are a sinning Christ rejecting person prior to their acceptance of Christ and in being regenerated (born again)?

Yes, or no?

Please answer.


He won’t answer, because if he did it would expose the origin of his “doctrine”.


He believes a person is born again Sovereignly, by the Holy Spirit, sometime during there life, then later on they believe the Gospel.


IOW, believing is the result of being saved, rather than being saved is the result of believing the Gospel message of salvation.






JLB
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As per the opening post, the Eternal Aspect of Salvation 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Who hath saved us according to His own purpose and grace given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

This highlights the blessed truth for the believer, that God had already saved us eternally according to His purpose and grace !
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
This highlights the blessed truth for the believer, that God had already saved us eternally according to His purpose and grace !

What 2 Timothy 1 highlights, is the fact that we are saved through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the context.


Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2 Timothy 1:8-10



Immortality is the result of believing the Gospel.

As Christians we should all be in one accord concerning the message of Salvation.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16








JLB
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What 2 Timothy 1 highlights, is the fact that we are saved through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the context.


Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2 Timothy 1:8-10



Immortality is the result of believing the Gospel.

As Christians we should all be in one accord concerning the message of Salvation.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16








JLB
You still dont get the eternal aspect of Salvation, even though I gave you scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What 2 Timothy 1 highlights, is the fact that we are saved through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is the context.


Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2 Timothy 1:8-10



Immortality is the result of believing the Gospel.

As Christians we should all be in one accord concerning the message of Salvation.



For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16








JLB
Also Paul shows that his Gospel message included the Eternal aspect of Salvation, that believers were saved in Gods Purpose before the world began !
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You still dont get the eternal aspect of Salvation, even though I gave you scripture.


Eternal life is eternal, and comes by believing the message of Jesus Christ.


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.Titus 3:4-7



It doesn’t come any other way.

A person must hear and believe to be saved.


  • How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?



For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:13-14






JLB
 
Upvote 0

JLB777

Newbie
Supporter
Jun 18, 2012
5,905
1,258
✟403,811.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Also Paul shows that his Gospel message included the Eternal aspect of Salvation, that believers were saved in Gods Purpose before the world began !


It doesn’t say believers were saved before the world began.


It says… His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:9-10


His purpose is for the world to be saved through the Gospel, which was revealed by the appearing of Jesus Christ.


  • but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,



For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17





JLB
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Eternal life is eternal, and comes by believing the message of Jesus Christ.


But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.Titus 3:4-7



It doesn’t come any other way.

A person must hear and believe to be saved.


  • How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
  • And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?



For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:13-14






JLB
It appears you still dont grasp the eternal aspect of Salvation.
 
Upvote 0

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
It doesn’t say believers were saved before the world began.


It says… His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.


who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:9-10


His purpose is for the world to be saved through the Gospel, which was revealed by the appearing of Jesus Christ.


  • but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,



For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:17





JLB
It does say it by implication.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
Dec 14, 2020
3,824
327
66
Georgia
✟125,375.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
As it regards the eternal aspect of Salvation, JC Philpot wrote and I concur:

“To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ.” - Jude 1

What a mercy it is for God’s people, that before they have a ‘vital union’ with Christ, before they are grafted into Him experimentally — they have an ‘eternal union’ with Him before all worlds. It is by virtue of this eternal union, that they come into the world at such a time,

at such a place,

from such parents,

under such circumstances

— just as God has appointed.

It is by virtue of this eternal union, that all the circumstances of their lives are ordained. By virtue of this eternal union, they are preserved in Christ before they are effectually called.

They cannot die — until God has brought about a vital union with Christ!

Whatever sickness they may pass through, whatever injuries they may be exposed to, whatever perils assault them on sea or land — die they will not, die they cannot — until God’s purposes are executed in bringing them into a vital union with the Son of His love.

Thus, this eternal union watched over every circumstance of their birth, watched over their childhood, watched over their manhood — watched over them until the appointed time and spot, when “the God of all grace,” according to His eternal purpose, was pleased to quicken their souls, and thus bring about an experimental union with the Lord of life and glory!
Click to expand...

This Eternal Union is depicted by 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Elect have always been saved from the penalty of their sins by virtue of this Eternal Union in Christ, which ensured all other salvations in time.
 
Upvote 0