20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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Guojing

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Moriah's Song in post 3990: "The OT believers looked forward to the cross..."

I checked the OT.

Peter isn't in it.
Those "camping outside the tomb on the 3rd day" are not in it.
"The first witnesses of his resurrection, which were women" are not in it.

Your post is irrelevant.

I am not referring to page description in your bible.

The nt could Only begin after the cross.
 
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Guojing

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What difference does that make? That doesn't change the fact that what he said in Acts 15 is true. He taught the same thing there that Paul taught several times in his letters as well.

If Acts is not a doctrinal letter, then why do you try to use Acts 21:18-25 to support your doctrine?

I am identifying what the little flock believed in acts, which includes obeying the law of Moses.

U won’t be able to understand the letters of James peter and John if you don’t see that
 
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Guojing

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Prior to the cross, Mary, the mother of Jesus believed in the Savior of the OT who would come to save her from her sins....
Luk 1:46,47 - And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Of the OT writers believed that they needed a savior and looked forward to a day when that would become a reality.

Both the OT and the NT remnant lived by faith in the promise of salvation to all who believe.

SAMUEL:
2Sa 22:3 - "...my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my savior; thou savest me from violence.

PSALMS:
(David, Moses et al)
Psa 106:21 - They forgot God, their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt,

ISAIAH:

Isa 19:20 - It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; when they cry to the LORD because of oppressors he will send them a savior, and will defend and deliver them.
Isa 43:3 - For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, .
Isa 43:11 - I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
Isa 45:15 - Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior.
Isa 45:21 - ...And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 49:26 - "...Then all flesh shall know that I am the LORD your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
Isa 60:16 - "...and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 63:8 - For he said, Surely they are my people, sons who will not deal falsely; and he became their Savior.

JEREMIAH:

Jer 14:8 - O thou hope of Israel, its savior in time of trouble, why shouldst thou be like a stranger in the land,...

HOSEA:

Hosea 13:4 - I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.

Even before Adam and Eve had children, God promised salvation to all believing mankind in Genesis 3:15..."I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;..." When they did have children, we see the first written instance of sacrifices being presented to God which would indicate future forgiveness for all who believe in that promised "seed" which would be called "the Messiah/Emmanuel."

Now when Cain and Abel were old enough to bring sacrifices to the Lord, we see this account in Genesis 4:2-4... "Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the [cursed]ground, and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,"

LONG before Noah, and before Abraham was called out of a GENTILE nation, at the very beginning of history as we know it, God always provided a way for man to receive forgiveness!

None of your passages in the ot refers to Jesus having to die for Israel’s sins and rising again for their justification
 
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ShineyDays2

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None of your passages in the ot refers to Jesus having to die for Israel’s sins and rising again for their justification
Just what do you think those OT sacrifices were for???? They were to show that someone would be dying and blood would be shed by our savior.
Typical Guojing dodging the truth of scripture by claiming that something HE thought "should have been in the OT but was not" (according to his view only) so that he would not have to admit that those verses could not be ignored by him.

Hang onto your hat Guojing, more verse are coming! (although I don't know why you want them other than to once again dodge the truth of the inspired word of God so you won't have to let go of your heretical teaching of J.N.Darby's dispensationalism)

Just a quick few to start with for now:
Gal 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree"-- (compare with Deut. 21:22-23)

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -

Isaiah 53:3-6 - "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."-

In the end, Isaiah says in verse 12 that God would reward this righteous servant (numbered with the transgressors, but not one himself), "he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

More later if you ignore the truth of these few.
 
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jgr

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I am not referring to page description in your bible.

The nt could Only begin after the cross.

Therefore, all Christian Bibles must be wrong, because they begin the New Testament with Jesus' birth rather than His death.

Do you think that Jesus' disciples and followers before Calvary were saved through His New Testament, or through the Old Testament?

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Was the salvation that Jesus said had come to Zacchaeus house, Jesus' NT salvation, or OT salvation?
 
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Guojing

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Just what do you think those OT sacrifices were for???? They were to show that someone would be dying and blood would be shed by our savior.
Typical Guojing dodging the truth of scripture by claiming that something HE thought "should have been in the OT but was not" (according to his view only) so that he would not have to admit that those verses could not be ignored by him.

Hang onto your hat Guojing, more verse are coming! (although I don't know why you want them other than to once again dodge the truth of the inspired word of God so you won't have to let go of your heretical teaching of J.N.Darby's dispensationalism)

Just a quick few to start with for now:
Gal 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree"-- (compare with Deut. 21:22-23)

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -

Isaiah 53:3-6 - "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."-

In the end, Isaiah says in verse 12 that God would reward this righteous servant (numbered with the transgressors, but not one himself), "he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

More later if you ignore the truth of these few.

You stated that the OT saints were looking forward to the cross.

I am fine if that is your personal opinion.

But when you say its scriptural and none of the scriptures you put forth had anything to do with the cross, that is when people will question you.

They were to show that someone would be dying and blood would be shed by our savior.

Is this your personal opinion, that they somehow knew, as they were sacrificing animals, that God himself would die for their sins?

If it is, I am fine, we have a right to our opinions.
 
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Guojing

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Therefore, all Christian Bibles must be wrong, because they begin the New Testament with Jesus' birth rather than His death.

Do you think that Jesus' disciples and followers before Calvary were saved through His New Testament, or through the Old Testament?

Luke 19:9
And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Was the salvation that Jesus said had come to Zacchaeus house, Jesus' NT salvation, or OT salvation?

They will only receive salvation at the 2nd coming of Christ (Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11:25-27l, Hebrews 8:12)

So no, they do not have present salvation as we have in the Body of Christ.
 
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jgr

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They will only receive salvation at the 2nd coming of Christ (Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11:25-27l, Hebrews 8:12)

So no, they do not have present salvation as we have in the Body of Christ.

So Jesus' disciples and followers went to hell because they did not have "present salvation".

And Jesus was just joking when He told Zacchaeus, "This day is salvation come to this house".
 
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jgr

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They will only receive salvation at the 2nd coming of Christ (Acts 3:19-21, Romans 11:25-27l, Hebrews 8:12)

So no, they do not have present salvation as we have in the Body of Christ.

Are you aware of anyone other than yourself who believes such nonsense?

I'd like to see some sources, names, and quotes.
 
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Guojing

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Are you aware of anyone other than yourself who believes such nonsense?

I'd like to see some sources, names, and quotes.

I have provided scripture for you. If you think its nonsense, quote the same scripture and tell me how you would interpret it as saying.

No point saying its nonsense without alternative interpretations.
 
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Guojing

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So Jesus' disciples and followers went to hell because they did not have "present salvation".

And Jesus was just joking when He told Zacchaeus, "This day is salvation come to this house".

Like the OT saints, they will enter Paradise/Abraham's bosom, at their deaths.

That area is located nearby but its not the same as hell, as the account in Luke 16:22 indicated.
 
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jgr

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I have provided scripture for you. If you think its nonsense, quote the same scripture and tell me how you would interpret it as saying.

No point saying its nonsense without alternative interpretations.

The request was for sources, names, and quotes.

Unsurprisingly, you cannot provide any.
 
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jgr

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Like the OT saints, they will enter Paradise/Abraham's bosom, at their deaths.

That area is located nearby but its not the same as hell, as the account in Luke 16:22 indicated.

Why did Jesus save Zacchaeus, but did not save His disciples and followers?
 
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Guojing

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Why did Jesus save Zacchaeus, but did not save His disciples and followers?

Salvation came to Israel in the form of Jesus.

There is no present salvation until the Body of Christ was revealed thru Paul, after the nation of Israel has fallen.
 
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Marilyn C

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Prior to the cross, Mary, the mother of Jesus believed in the Savior of the OT who would come to save her from her sins....
Luk 1:46,47 - And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

Of the OT writers believed that they needed a savior and looked forward to a day when that would become a reality.

Both the OT and the NT remnant lived by faith in the promise of salvation to all who believe.

SAMUEL:
2Sa 22:3 - "...my God, my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold and my refuge, my savior; thou savest me from violence.

PSALMS:
(David, Moses et al)
Psa 106:21 - They forgot God, their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt,

ISAIAH:

Isa 19:20 - It will be a sign and a witness to the LORD of hosts in the land of Egypt; when they cry to the LORD because of oppressors he will send them a savior, and will defend and deliver them.
Isa 43:3 - For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, .
Isa 43:11 - I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.
Isa 45:15 - Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Savior.
Isa 45:21 - ...And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me.
Isa 49:26 - "...Then all flesh shall know that I am the LORD your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
Isa 60:16 - "...and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.
Isa 63:8 - For he said, Surely they are my people, sons who will not deal falsely; and he became their Savior.

JEREMIAH:

Jer 14:8 - O thou hope of Israel, its savior in time of trouble, why shouldst thou be like a stranger in the land,...

HOSEA:

Hosea 13:4 - I am the LORD your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior.

Even before Adam and Eve had children, God promised salvation to all believing mankind in Genesis 3:15..."I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed;..." When they did have children, we see the first written instance of sacrifices being presented to God which would indicate future forgiveness for all who believe in that promised "seed" which would be called "the Messiah/Emmanuel."

Now when Cain and Abel were old enough to bring sacrifices to the Lord, we see this account in Genesis 4:2-4... "Abel was a keeper of sheep, and Cain a tiller of the ground. In the course of time Cain brought to the LORD an offering of the fruit of the [cursed]ground, and Abel brought of the firstlings of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,"

LONG before Noah, and before Abraham was called out of a GENTILE nation, at the very beginning of history as we know it, God always provided a way for man to receive forgiveness!

Hi MS,

Yes how wonderful, the grace of God. So can you tell me what inheritance those people were looking for? What was promised to them?

Marilyn.
 
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Marilyn C

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They are saved to the same entity as we are, which is the church/body of Christ. Christ's blood covered their sins retroactively. Their souls are with the souls of dead NT saints in heaven.

That they didn't have the same experience as us in terms of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is irrelevant. That doesn't make them part of a separate group from us.

Hi SJ,

So what was promised to them? What is their inheritance?

Marilyn.
 
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jgr

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Not everyone wants to play this "appeal to authority" game with you.

That pesky English language is getting in your way again.

Who other than you has said anything about an "appeal to authority"?

I haven't.

Go reread the posts.

Can you understand what I've requested?
 
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ShineyDays2

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You stated that the OT saints were looking forward to the cross.

I am fine if that is your personal opinion.

But when you say its scriptural and none of the scriptures you put forth had anything to do with the cross, that is when people will question you.

Quoting 4 verses of scripture is NOT "my personal opinion!" They are strait from scripture and are solid truth!

I stand firm on those verses, that DO indicate that "the OT saints were looking forward to the cross." If you know anything about the scriptural accounts concerning what happened to Jesus on the day He was crucified you cannot get around those 3-4 OT verses that prophesied of who and what was going to take place and of which was fulfilled on that day!

Try reading them this time:
Gal 3:13 - Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree"-- (compare with Deut. 21:22-23)

Zechariah 12:10 - "And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced…" -

Isaiah 53:3-6 - "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all."-

In the end, Isaiah says in verse 12 that God would reward this righteous servant (numbered with the transgressors, but not one himself), "he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."
Your lack of correct scriptural interpretation is well known by now.
 
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Guojing

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I stand firm on those verses, that DO indicate that "the OT saints were looking forward to the cross." If you know anything about the scriptural accounts concerning what happened to Jesus on the day He was crucified you cannot get around those 3-4 OT verses that prophesied of who and what was going to take place and of which was fulfilled on that day!

Try reading them this time:

You are basically doing what I would call "anticipating revelation".

You have the benefit of being born in this time, with the completed scriptures/revelation.

Thus, you assumed that the OT saints, who only had the OT scriptures to rely on, also understood everything that you understand now.

I had a point when I used Peter in my first reply to you.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Peter is a fervent Jew, he grew up with the OT.

Are you saying he did not understand that Isaiah was actually preaching to all of Israel that their Messiah would die on the cross for their sins, thus he rebuked Jesus for telling them he had to die?

That even after he died on the cross, as you claim Isaiah was actually saying, Peter somehow "forgot" that Jesus was supposed to rise from the dead too?
 
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