Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

RickReads

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Years ago I left all my grievances against other human beings at the alter of my repentance. I took myself out of the way to let God perform His will.

I would love to embrace universal salvation but I`ve never seen a winning contention for it to be so.
 
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GallagherM

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In consideration of all that has been heard.

Thinking about our flesh. Our flesh likes to be right, and have control over things, even over people. Our flesh doesn’t like to be wrong, it hates that, because it will get bitter and angry.

Today talked about children; we are all born as children in this world. Needing little socks, diaper, little pants, little shirt, little shoes, and need to be feed. As a child you are given all of these things by mom and dad. In a sense the world is giving you everything. Your mom and dad, grandma are your world. Your world is revolving around them.

Your legs start getting better, you notice you have hands, you notice now you can talk and use words. Now the world can start being used by you. If no structure you can end up believing the world owes you everything.

You against the world is the old saying.

Is that not mind blowing to you?

As children born into this world with our sins forgiven; you and me both were spiritually dead all you and me knew was. Clothes, food, mom, dad, school. Especially if you have no one giving you structure. You will do what you want… period. And sometimes that is how we can be. We desire things to be our own way.

But God can help us in being spiritually born again, by the Lord Jesus Christ whom died on the cross and was resurrected again by God; that you and me can be spiritually reborn and live by the spirit. Which people start off as children in…

But now you have a Father in heaven who gives spiritual things; joy, peace, love, forbearance, kindness, gentleness ; love towards God and love towards others.

Seeking out for Gods truth.
 
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Ceallaigh

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This is exactly the kind of response I was talking about.

I didn`t put any work into my posts on this thread. Making a list of scriptures isn`t hard but it is time-consuming and you already said you didn`t want to have a discussion with me.

I don`t need verses about hell to refute Universalism. Lots of scriptures plainly tell us that God intends to punish the wicked, that He can and does get angry, that He will avenge His elect Etc. Etc. Etc.

Despite your claims that you where halfway towards considering UR, from what I've seen you've been contentious, critical and obstinate. And then you complain that responses to that haven't been favorable.
 
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Lazarus Short

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You've taken on hell and debunked it without ever addressing the question of universalism.

Quite right! I'll need to up my game, but with Hell debunked, what is left? The evidence for annihilation in the Scriptures seemed scant to me, and anyway the text says that Death will be defeated. God even jeers at Death. See First Corinthians 15:21-23, for all shall be made alive and nothing is said about any of them sent on to Hell or reduced to ashes. With Death defeated, how can anyone then be dead and/or in Hell? Logic excludes it. I'm not saying all enter the Kingdom right away or that there is no punishment - but the final outcome seems clear to me, or how else is God the Father to become All in all?
 
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Ceallaigh

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And that was a very naughty Pontiff. I know Catholics who weren’t best pleased by that display of public relations gold.

Based on complaints I heard, John Paul II expressed similar sentiments.
 
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Ceallaigh

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No.

Now as for what I was saying in the previous post, anyone who comes down on the side of actually deciding that universalism is God's way does so with almost no Scriptural support. There is, however, plenty of Scriptural support for the belief that some are saved and some are lost.

Why shouldn't this fact rank higher in the estimation of any Christian than all the wishing and guessing that the other side is forced to do?

Like I've said twice already, there's a much stronger case for it than what you've caught on forum threads. That some actual research is needed. But I think you're more apt to stick with arbitrarily shooting it down based on limited understanding.
 
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Ceallaigh

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One of the biggest scriptural arguments against hell, is that it doesn't exist in the entire Old Testament. Despite translators erroneously or perhaps deceptively calling words like grave "hell".
The way the discussion has turned, I feel impelled to post this, and leave it at that. It is the distillation of over two years of inquiry below the surface of a very ordinary King James Bible.

1. There is no mention of Hell in God’s Creation of the Cosmos - therefore, Hell is apparently uncreated by God or anyone else. See Genesis 1:1, Isaiah 65:17, Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5. John 1:3 explicitly states that God made all, and that no other person or agency made anything. To back that up, the Bible contains many instances of “heaven and earth” paired together as a term…without “hell.”

2. In the first chapter of Genesis, it is stated six times that God saw that what He had made was good, excluding Hell as being possible, as the Creation could not have been wholly good had Hell been in existence. See Genesis 1:10,12,18,21,25,31.

3. The Creation as described in Genesis is properly a hierarchy, not a dualistic Heaven versus Hell – with the Earth and humans as a contested prize, fought over by God and Satan. See Genesis 1:1, Job 1 & 2, John 1:3, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 5:13.

4. God made both good and evil, for the same Hand that planted the Tree of Life surely also planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, Satan did not make or create evil. See Genesis 2:9, Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, Amos 3:6.

5. The Bible makes no connection between Satan and Hell, so Satan is NOT the Prince of Hell. See Job 1:6-7, 2:1-2, Zechariah 3:1-2, Revelation 2:13, 12:9.

6. The prince of Tyre in Ezekiel 28 is not Satan, as it specifically refers to him as a man. See Ezekiel 26 - 28.

7. The Law God gave to Moses warned of death, but did not specify punishment in Hell, or warn of it. Punishments were delivered in the real world, and the most severe was simple death. See Genesis 2:17, Exodus through Deuteronomy, Romans 6:23.

8. Nearly all the consequences of human disobedience to God are worked out in the real, here-and-now world – not in Hell. This includes death, destruction, perishing, God’s wrath and His cursings. See Deuteronomy 28:15-68, 30:19, Ezekiel 32:32, Romans 13:4. The only exception is the banishment of the unrighteous to the Lake of Fire – but that is for their ultimate salvation, otherwise Death cannot be defeated and God cannot become All in all...as we see in I Corinthians 15.

9. All people die, but none of them go to Eternal Conscious Torment – only to the grave or pit. See every instance of personal death in the Bible, with “hell” (if present) properly replaced with “sheol” or “hades,” as so often noted in the marginal or center-column reference.

10. For the Hebrews, “sheol,” hidden, covered and unknown, was the state, condition or place of the dead. It was where the body returned to the dust and the spirit returned to God (Who gave it). See Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

11. Eternal Conscious Torment depends on the concept of the Immortality of the Soul, and that comes, not from the Bible, but from Greek philosophy, from Socrates and Plato. It is clearly pagan.

12. Hell, by definition, opposes the Gospel (the Good News) because Hell can only be Bad News for those sent there – and thus, for most of living (and dead) humanity.

13. Hell violates God’s Law, specifically the Law of the Jubilee, which sets all those in servitude free. Those who die are freed from sin, as prophesied by the Law of the Jubilee. See Leviticus 25:8-13, Isaiah 1:18, Romans 6:7,16.

14. The idea of damnation of people to Hell is at least absurd, and possibly blasphemous, due to the presence of God’s Spirit of Life in each of us. See Genesis 1:26-27, 2:7,3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7.

15. Hell, like Babylon, is confusion. Hell is hot, but it’s also cold as…Hell. Hell is bright with fire, but it is dark. Hell is separation from God, but Mary K Baxter depicts Jesus touring Hell, chiding the damned. To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to be in Eternal Conscious Torment, you must be alive, but you’re dead, and on and on… Fictional descriptions of Hell, especially as seen in the works of Dante, Milton and Baxter, are clearly fictional and un-Biblical.

16. God’s plan for the wicked is to destroy their wickedness, not to destroy them or send them to Hell. See Psalm 1:6, 7:9, Isaiah 1:18, Jeremiah 3:12, Habakkuk 1:12, Philippians 3:21, Hebrews 10:26-27.

17. God speaks of ransoming/redeeming ALL from death and the grave – without exception. See Psalm 49:15, Ezekiel 16:55, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 1:10.

18. God is both willing AND able to save all. Given that He is omnipotent, we can ALL look forward with confidence to our eventual salvation. See Psalm 49:15, 86:13, 103:8-14, 136, Isaiah 1:18, 6:7, 25:7-8, 26:19, 33:24, 43:25, 44:22, 45:8, 55:8-9, 57:16, 64:6-9, Jeremiah 3:12. Lamentations 3:26-32, Ezekiel 11:19, 16:55, Hosea 13:14, Micah 4:5, 7:18-19, Ephesians 1:10, Philipians 3:21, Colossians 1:19-20, I Thessalonians 1:10, I Timothy 1:15, 2:4-6, 4:10, 6:13, II Peter 3:9.

19. God compares Himself to a cleansing or refining agent – usually as fire, but sometimes as soap. Therefore, all instances of supernatural fire should be interpreted as being for refining and/or purification, not damnation. Fire in the Bible is never Hellfire, but natural fire or God’s Fire. See Malachi 3:2-3, Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:15.

20. If God’s Fire is for baptism and refining, then that which is burned must be our carnal, sinful nature. It is symbolized by unfruitful trees, tares, chaff, wood, hay and stubble – by anything unable to endure the Fire. See Matthew 3:10-12, I Corinthians 3:11-15.

21. “Hell” is used in the King James Version (and others) to replace four other words: “Sheol,” “Hades,” “Gehenna” and “Tartarus.” None of these refer to a place of damnation or Eternal Conscious Torment. See any decent dictionary, especially the Oxford English Dictionary.

22. When we dig out mistranslations and peel away misinterpretations, we find that Hell is an imposition, an insertion into the text. With Hell so deconstructed, the Bible and God are both silent on Hell. See Numbers 23:19, John 14:2.

23. Christians should not follow the Hell of the ancient, pagan religions, such as the “Hel” we find in Norse mythology, but follow the truth of God’s Word, which does not contain either the concept of Hell or even the word “hell,” except in imperfect translations.

I expect this to be completely ignored by detractors and for them to continue claiming no one uses scripture to back up UR.

"This is too long. It's too much info to absorb. It's probably all wrong so I'm not bother with it. Now why don't you ever provide scripture?"
 
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Hmm

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They will defend to the bitter end whatever their favorite sin happens to be (not that this is a sin we are talking about on this thread, but the same reasoning applies) by refashioning God into a "good guy" who wouldn't think of being "mean" to them by having any standards or expectations of his creatures that might cause them any discomfort. :doh:

But God is a good guy surely and only a real meanie would consign someone to ECT. Aren't people rejecting the idea of ECT or annihilation trying to resalvage God rather than reinvent him? ECT is simply not compatible with the loving God we see in the Bible. Can you see Jesus who told us to forgive one another seventy times seven times IOW without limit not doing the same sending anyone beyond the reach of forgiveness and grace and into the hands of an eternal torturer?
 
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Lazarus Short

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It isn`t necessary to discuss hell to refute Universalism. That`s one of its fatal weaknesses.

You're trying to move the goal posts. If I can (and I did) deconstruct Hell, then Damnationism collapses. If God did not make Hell to burn the wicked in forever and ever amen, then He surely will not reduce them to ashes either. That leaves only the salvation of all, but you won't have it.
 
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RickReads

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One of the biggest scriptural arguments against hell, is that it doesn't exist in the entire Old Testament. Despite translators erroneously or perhaps deceptively calling words like grave "hell".


I expect this to be completely ignored by detractors and for them to continue claiming no one uses scripture to back up UR.

"This is too long. It's too much info to absorb. It's probably all wrong so I'm not bother with it. Now why don't you ever provide scripture?"

But the only point of the whole list of verses is that the word hell is used in each one. I don`t think it really matters because it isn`t necessary to prove what hell(etc) is. A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.
 
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Ceallaigh

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You're trying to move the goal posts. If I can (and I did) deconstruct Hell, then Damnationism collapses. If God did not make Hell to burn the wicked in forever and ever amen, then He surely will not reduce them to ashes either. That leaves only the salvation of all, but you won't have it.

Yeah I agree. Instead of "that's really good comprehensive research utilizing a lot of scripture". It's "just because you took hell apart, that doesn't make UR true". The main thrust of UR is disproving the eternal damnation doctrine.
 
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RickReads

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You're trying to move the goal posts. If I can (and I did) deconstruct Hell, then Damnationism collapses. If God did not make Hell to burn the wicked in forever and ever amen, then He surely will not reduce them to ashes either. That leaves only the salvation of all, but you won't have it.

I question what you call "Damnationism" but that isn`t the only other possible outcome.

When God creates a new heaven and new earth I believe He intends for everything to be perfect. To me, a firelake in the backyard doesn`t fit that picture and I believe He will get rid of it.
 
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Hmm

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I don`t think it really matters because it isn`t necessary to prove what hell(etc) is. A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.

Well, if there is no eternal hell, and no annihilation, then universalism must by definition be true. What are these other issues that would weigh against it?
 
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Ceallaigh

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But the only point of the whole list of verses is that the word hell is used in each one. I don`t think it really matters because it isn`t necessary to prove what hell(etc) is. A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.

Fine. A whole host of issues weigh against other doctrines as well. Probably most notably Calvinism. I don't think Calvinism is correct as far as predestination goes. However I'm willing to concede I might be wrong about that. I also know what the arguments for and against Calvinism are, and I recognize they both carry enough weight, to not arbitrarily dismiss either view.
 
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RickReads

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Yeah I agree. Instead of "that's really good comprehensive research utilizing a lot of scripture". It's "just because you took hell apart, that doesn't make UR true". The main thrust of UR is disproving the eternal damnation doctrine.

I`ve not professed to believe in what you call damnation doctrine in almost 20 years and I think it`s possible that alternatives should have been used.

Maybe that's why you have trouble understanding me. My only focus is looking for proofs for universal salvation.
 
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RickReads

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Well, if there is no eternal hell, and no annihilation, then universalism must by definition be true. What are these other issues that would weigh against it?

I don`t think the hell issue disproves annihilation.
 
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Cormack

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A whole host of other issues weigh against universalism.

Constructing the strongest case in favour of universal reconciliation goes to show how much of the conversation trends in its favour though, but we have to be prepared to make its case.

God is either incapable or unwilling to have everyone reconciled and it seems to me that the strongest case in scripture is that He prefers that every man, woman and child be saved without exception.

Or as William Lane Craig once said “God is an aspiring universalist!”

So does God aspire to His aim or actually achieve the aim?

Or as Dr. Micheal Brown argued in a debate with James White “God does all that He pleases, but what does He please?”

If it pleases Him that every man, woman and child be saved, and if He does all that He pleases in heaven and upon earth, it’s a matter of logical necessity that all shall be saved.

Users don’t seem to understand that their scripture safe house is in no small part a reflection of their own tastes and preferences, tastes and preferences which God doesn’t appear to share.

Rattling the cage for more scripture when the detractor himself could google hundreds of verses that appear to support universalism isn’t just an exercise in futility, it’s also ignoring the mighty philosophical and moral case in favour of universalism.

Over the course of discussing justice and mercy and Gods desires the universal reconciliation of all things comes out as an untouchable champion, while ideas like the eternal conscious torment of the damned can’t even commend itself to our own minds and hearts.

But none of that matters eh, because we each have our verses…
 
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Ceallaigh

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I`ve not professed to believe in what you call damnation doctrine in almost 20 years and I think it`s possible that alternatives should have been used.

Maybe that's why you have trouble understanding me. My only focus is looking for proofs for universal salvation.

What middle ground can there be between salvation and damnation?

I'm not sure proof can be provided to declare a doctrine correct or not. It seems obvious if incontrovertible proof of a doctrine existed, it would be outside the realm of debate among Christians. So one has to go with the preponderance of evidence and make a decision. But I don't think that can be found by way of posts on a discussion forum. And if one starts drilling forum posters and demanding proof, that's going to generate contention.
 
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Cormack

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ECT is simply not compatible with the loving God we see in the Bible.

The sad truth is that many users would sooner embrace a logical train wreck like that ^^^^ rather than admit their preferred systematic wasn’t true. They have to decide between junking in their minds and moral sense versus giving up their favourite interpretation.

In my experience that’s the difference between holding onto our treasured damnation verses and choosing to live out the remainder of our lives as a schizoidtypal personality (here,) versus deciding on living authentically with our own logical, spiritual and moral intuitions, intuitions that testify to the absolute goodness of God.
 
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